Reply to : St. Thomas

starting at the beginning....Treenee started this thread on 24/7/2001 (thanks rhianna for identifying the thread):

24/7/2001  Are you more compassion [ate] to the human race and less judgemental after your deconversion?

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=319472&CategoryID=11636&startcat=2061&ThreadID=44290

post-fundy morality as discussed by some familiar 'oldies' soon after finding the community of walk-away

"Researching Fundamentalist Psychology" by 'adr' (19/8/2001)

as there is scant research data available in the field of religion and psychology (especially as it applies to christiam fundamentalism) it may be of interest to keep this thread, which explores issues of cognitive development and fundamentalism.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=319472&CategoryID=11636&startcat=2041&ThreadID=62613

****appeals to 'adr' to post his revised thesis..........if he still looks in on the forum.

don'tknow why we didn't erect this as a CT? it has a very moving account of physical abuse and makes me think that there could be an argument made for estalishing a links/threads section for post-fundy parenting and the like? maybe that doesn't focus enough on the walk-away recovery process..........i'll leave it up for discussion.

3/8/2003 Spare the Rod and .......well....just spare the rod. by nologoboy

on the meaning of life............(from the thread "Finding Meaning in Life") support forum

i think a couple of these quotes deserve to appear in a walk-away members quotes. it may be too fiddly to do so but i thought it might be cool to put a few of these quotes around the website......a featured quote of the day from a vast sea of past insights? some of my own thoughts at the time were a little...unevolved, i think. oh well, at least i am not staying in one place i guess:-)

"Life is beyond meaning. It is too big for that. Meaning is something our minds create...............asking for meaning in life implies that life [is not] truly important..............I do not find that the problems in life or its transient and changing nature detract from its significance." - Coffee (16/8/2001)

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=319472&CategoryID=11636&startcat=2041&ThreadID=60174

"The human mind craves order and meaning. We can not even look at the chaotic scattering of the stars at night without concocting constellation ?ictures?out of them ??ictures?that are not really there ?only in our minds. It soothes us somehow. It certainly soothed the ancient peoples who came up with the stories (and the gods) to go with them. But, the awesome beauty and magnificence of the universe, to me, is greater than these little man-made stories." - St. Thomas (16/8/2001)

"I've always known the meaning of my life. It is to create beauty in myself and the world around me. I strive to do that everyday.
I do not presume to think that this is the purpose of life or other people's lives...but in a wider scope, I think that we are all pieces of a sentient Universe (a la Babylon 5) that is trying to understand itself..our most basic purpose is to know and express ourselves." - Cyranothe2nd (18/7/2001)

from Looking too hard to find an Answer support forum

in defence of agnosticism.........."The biggest change in thought for me was the realization that I don't know the answer". ?A-train (8/9/2001)

Mog, CurtX...message for you here....    the lion's den

on walking away..................

"I think it's safe to say we're all sick and tired of being treated as if we never tried. No matter how many years you spent, how many hours in prayer and in Bible study, how many times you went to church, how much money you gave, how many tears you shed for your sins, Christians always assume it just wasn't enough." - Voltaire (31/10/2001)

"We feel the way we now feel, think the way we now think, and speak out the way we do because we have come to face an awful reality in our lives..........We came to see that the facts of our experience did not match what the Bible said about our faith and our God. We came to see that the Bible does indeed contradict itself...We came to see through the very words of the Bible itself, that the God of the Bible... is not a God worthy of love, but rather he is to be despised for the way he has treated his creation. All this and much more, in turn has lead some if not many of us to realize that the God of the Bible is not God at all. " - Zthor (1/11/2001)

"Mine was an agonizing seven year period of seeking and not finding, asking and not receiving, knocking and never having the door opened. I recall one of my prayers regarding what Jesus said about asking God. He said words to the effect of, "which among you would give your child a rock when he asked for bread or a snake when he asked for a fish. As much as you love your children, how much more does God in heaven love you and give good things to those who ask." It got to the point where I was telling God that I would settle for the snake or the rock. I remember praying to God and saying, "Silence is not an answer!!" It was a deafening silence. Occasionally, I would think I had received an answer from God, only to find out that it lead to another empty path. I slowly began to realize that my invisible friend was simply an imaginary friend." - Kicker04 (1/11/2001)

" I'm not mad at God. I'm mad at the fact that I wasted that much of my life chasing some pipe dream." - Stymie (10/11/2001)

i know this post is lengthy but the author used to be famous for these (Treenee, a person who made me feel very welcome here at walk away when i first joined).the thread is Someone is Spoofing Me and Treenee made this post on 11/3/2001. Lacey described it as oneof the best summaries of christian history she had ever heard (and lacey aint no potato-head) and since it is of a readable length, it could be a handy resource. she is addressing MOG, a fundy troll who graced our neighborhood for some time way back when.........

You mentioned the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity of course and I was just wondering if you really know how that concept originated in Christianity? Not to metioned also, that the trinity existed long before Christianity.

Father Tertullian (an Xpagan, early church father) actually coined the Christian concept of the Trinity. He later moved on from traditional Christianity to a heretical group called the Montanists.

The trinity can be found in the following:
Vedic (Hindu) - Indra, Surya, Agni
India (Hindu) - Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva:later-Vasudeva, Devaki,Krishna
Egypt: Osiris,Isis,Horus (in Abydos) - Amen-Ra, Nut, Chonsu(in Thebes)
Greece: Zeus,Athene, Apollo
Rome - Jupiter, Juno, Minerva
Chaldea - Ana,Ea, Bel
Christian - Yaweh or Elohim, Holy Spirit, Christ Jesus

Ok then also did you know that the Council of Nicea in 325CE was the meeting where the Christian concept of the Trinity was discussed and to be voted on as to whether to adopt it? There were many church father's who had another concept of Christ...the Gnostic version (which it is suspected that Paul was a Gnostic). Christ cults existed even in 100BC. Christians argued about their version of Christ to the point where Emperor Constantine decided he must step in and solve the problem. Jesus didn't just tell everyone how to be Christian - if that is what you actually think - it is way off base.

You need to start reading about these things. Ignorance is no excuse if you are going to keep hammering at people about how much you pretend to know about your religion. ????????????

The Council of Nicea 325CE, summoned by Emperor Constantine, was a result of the bickering amongst the early church fathers about the concept of the divinity of Christ. Two camps ensued at the council - one on the side of Arius and one on the side of Athanasius. Arius claimed that the Father alone was really God and that the Son was a creation of the father. Arius did not believe that the son existed before He was begotten by the Father. Athanasius who had succeeded Alexander as bishop continued to defend Alexander? teachings, which were contrary to Arius? He believed that the Son was equal to the Father and of the same substance as the Father who begot him. Constantine favored Athanasius' view and thus by vote his concept was adopted, and any others were immediately to be deemed heretical. Constantine wanted to form a universal type of Christianity. He issued this decree shortly after the council:

Constantine's edict:
Understand by this present statute, Novations, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulinians... with what a tissue of lies and vanities, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inextricably woven! We give you warning.... Let none of you presume, from this time forward, to meet in congregations. To prevent this, we command that you be deprived of all the houses in which you have been accustomed to meet... and that these should be handed over immediately to the Catholic Church.

We can thank the early church, which burned and destroyed or manipulated as much literature and text as they could, which did not correspond with the decision of Nicea. Not to mention the burning of the Library of Alexandria in 391, which was a repository of thousands of ancient texts. This censorship of knowledge and history continued for hundreds of years - thus The Dark Ages. Christians were not allowed to read the bible for hundreds of years and were only fed the dogma of the church. Subversion from the church meant punishment and people were not free to learn and think for themselves.

Shockingly, it is demonstrated that the fallacies taught of the kind and gentle developments of Christianity among the Christian community today, portraying cohesiveness from the beginning to now, are a gross misrepresentation of the hard, cold historical facts. The clarity of Jesus?founding of Christianity himself is also then demonstrated to be very questionable. There is no evidence outside the bible to even suggest a man named Jesus lived. Even the birthday of Christ falls on a Pagan holiday the Winter solstice. Easter falls on a pagan holiday as well due to the forceful conversion of the pagan populace to Christianity and adaptation and theft of many of their traditions after the council of Nicea deemed any other belief heretical.
People were murdered, tortured or banished if they did not conform to the new version of Christianity. Christianity strong armed itsway throughout the ages.

Most people today do not understand that it was a normal course of life to believe in fantasies and gods. The story of Christ was simply one of the many, who actually came much later and copied many of the stories previously. It is evident that there were differnt versions of Christ only because the story was forming and beginning to amalgamate into what then became the Roman Catholic Church.

Just some notes:

The 23rd Psalm can be found in The Egyption Book of the Dead for instance.......not to menion the that an Egyptian Hymn to Osiris can be found identical to the Lord's Prayer - O Amen, O Amen, Who art thou in heaven. (Amen was also invoked at the end of every prayer. A CHRISTIAN TRADITION TODAY!)

The all seeing eye of Osiris can be found in the ancient catholic churches (triangle with eye in the middle).

In Hymn to Osiris Un-Nefer - 2nd paragraph 1st sentence it says - King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of Princes..
This can be found in The Book of Revelations as well - but The Book of the Dead was written first so it was obviously copied.

Also a couple of things to note:

Krishna will return to judge the dead riding on a white horse and to do battle with the Prince of evil who will desolate the earth.

Buddha will return in the Latter days to restor order and judge the dead..

Or how about this one - Who said this?: "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him shall not be saved." Mithra of Persia taken from his Last Supper.
But many moons later John 6:53 says - that Jesus said unto them, verily, verily I say unto you except ye eat of the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Wow....sounds almost identical!

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST !!!!!!!!!

Since you WERE TALKING ABOUT THE HOLY GHOST!!!
On the walls of the temple of Luxor are the images of the annunciation, immaculate conception, birth and adoration of Hours. Toth announcing to the virgin Isis that she will concieve Horus, with Kneph (THE HOLY GHOST) impregnating the virgin - and with the infant being attended by 3 kings or magi bearing gifts. Isis holding Horus (Madonna and Child) can be found in the catacombs of Rome.

ManofGod - you are being hypnotized at church into believing you are filled with some spirit. Beware of how you have been manipulated. Learn the facts. The facts will tell you the truth about your religion.

There is no spirit filling you - it is only your mind imagining it.

That is the truth. Period. I hope someday you realize that you are being fooled into being a fool.

Stay home and save your 10 percent. You will be much better off in life.

for th record, i have just finished pages 105, 104 & 103 of the support forum and page 46 of the lion's den. seeing as though i was around at that time, i am happy to fish amongst the older pages for gems and such. i guess i have some meory of what was said and in what context etc. anyway, if anybody wants to start sifting then why not pick a page (20 threads to a page) around the time you arrived at the forum. that way you will have a good memory of what was going on..........i'm just finding it quite laborious and i think 'sifters' will find it more enjoyable to read over some of their own old material (can be a bit embarassing too).....maybe not, just suggestions.

as a guage, it can take a couple hours or more to get through a page of threads. i'm sorting in terms of 1. whole threads worth preserving more or less intact, 2.whole individual posts from a thread and 3.individual quotes from posts.

 A Rant: Dobson Stupidity really gets me Peaked!   support forum

"I wish stupidity was painful" - enlightenment 7/8/2001

Free Will and Creation lion's den

"Gawd demands perfection and only Jesus ever achieved that. That is why his atoning death on the cross saves you the sinner from having to pay the penalty for your sin yourself by spending all eternity in hell.

But this just seems to raise questions like ...Why does God set a standard he knows we can't meet? And why is the penalty for imperfection so steep?...an infinite punishment for finite crimes is perverse. Maybe the Catholics knew this when they thought up purgatory. You spend a while in the furnace and come out refined and purged, hence the name. " - Duke Nukem 28/11/2001

Just a note for those of you wondering where the heck I am and have been in the last few days after I opened this topic up for discussion.  I have to take some left over vacation days or loose them by the end of the month.  Yea, I know, what a horrible thing to hav to do (good greif, someone has to do it).  I'll be back on full time the first of September.  Till then, I'll be briefly in and out of here.  Just wanted you to know.    Please keep the ideas coming!!!

PS: I plan to have a draft web page up by the middle of September.

Thanks.

I am crossposting this message to all threads in this topic area. 

When I first joined WA I started saving some of my favorite threads under "My Favorites".  Here are some of my favorite favorites

Posted by Zarathustra on 9/15/02. 

Religion Prophecy and the Scientific Approach

The thesis goes something like this: A vast majority of the people on this planet embrace some form of religion. ... if so many practice some form of worship of a supernatural being, then is there the possibility of a supernatural being implanting the desire within the human design?
...  So I ask, what, besides the fear of not knowing tomorrow, exists in mankind that drives us to be spiritual creatures? Could the brain be endowed with the ability to open up to a supernatural phenomenon? Does the future hold a measureless stream of consequences making it completely unknowable? What drives man to desire a being greater than himself? Can the scientific approach answer these questions?

Posted by Academiannut on 7/14/02.  It is a continuation of a thread by Dr. Zhivago called my journey away from the born again lifestyle.

Born Again Religious Experiences Revisited: What they are and what do they signify

The next three are all good threads by Zarathustra on the immorality of Jehovah

Posted by Zarathustra 8/12/02

Thou Shalt not Kill: God's Double Standard

Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Boy, this sticks out like a sore thumb in the OT, doesn? it? Here you have god telling humanity that killing is wrong and then you find god directing the armies of Israel to do just that. Kill, destroy, rape, mutilate. Sort of contradictory, eh?

In somnambulism? post regarding good and evil I kept asking myself how I could have been so blinded to the immorality filling the bible. Every turn found god submarining one of his own laws. Seems god has one standard for his chosen few and another for himself. Anyhoo, it brought me to ask you this.


How did you justify this when you were involved in belief? Do you still hold to this idea, that killing is wrong or has your view changed on this matter?

Posted by Zarathustra 7/23/02

Depravity and You:Blame God

The idea of inherently depraved humanity is an absurdity.

If the god of the bible made humans in the likeness and image of himself, and those humans were flawed, then the God of the bible is flawed.

Humans were placed, according to the story, into the clutches of temptation. Humans succumbed to the temptation. God made humans with himself as the pattern. If god were beyond succumbing to temptation, then either (1) humans were not made in the image and likeness of god, making god a liar, (2) god screwed up the design or (3) god is depraved. God designed with the end in sight, most of his product line would wind up in hell.

Either way, according to the end result, the designer is flawed.

Zarathustra posted this on 9/29/02.  It's short but pithy.  Several good books are mentioned.

Morality Without God

Posted by Exmissionary 10/04/02

Which Theological Contradiction Bugged you the most?

I mentioned in another thread that I realized recently that it's the theology of Christianity that is driving me batty, not the niggly problems of Bible historicity or biblical morality.

St. Thomas posted this one on 11/20/02.  It's a three page thread.

Is Belief in Jesus Christ only for Fundies?

I have a simple question to all those that still consider themselves Christians on this board.  Simply this: 

Is it possible to still ?ave a relationship with a being called Jesus Christ?and not be a fundamentalist Christian?  What does this mean? 

I guess I? asking if you really believe he exists as a being and, if so, how do you relate to him?

Sunshine posted this 1/11/03.  It's a three page thread

The First Nail inthe Coffin

I was wondering....what was the first nail in the coffin of your faith? Was there a specific incident or question?  I remember mine.  When I was very young, I asked my mom what would happen if a man's wife died before he did and he remarried.  Which wife would he live with in heaven? She gave me some crap answer about how relaionships in heaven were different and we all lived together. This didn't coincide with the stories I had heard about how everyone had their own mansion in heaven, so I thought it was wierd.  I also used to wonder how could heaven  be paradise if people you knew and loved were burning forever.  Did God have one of those things from Men In Black that wiped your memory?

Zarathustra posted this on 9/03/02

Religious v. Religion

• What brought you to the point of believing?
• Having walked away from fundamental religion do you now find deeper meaning in the world around you?
• Are there times that you feel a greater spiritual connection to the world and people around you than when you were seeing it all through the lens of religion?
• Are you moved in a deeper or different sense by the artistic, and maybe even technological, achievements of humanity?

Reply to : foxmaiden

hey fox! just to let you know.........i am only 12 days from leaving New Zealand to move to the UK so I have very limited time to sift through threads. no big deal really, most of what i was doing will be over months rather than weeks anyway because it isn't really urgent, just useful in the longterm. all the most important iems will be brought to the surface by people doing what you just did - posting a handful of faves.

anyway, don't take my lack of activity as a lack of interest:-)

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Please post to here all links to posts and threads that exist in this board. We are looking for good, classic stuff. Go ahead and start digging far back into the Walk Away past. I know there are some gems out there. Paste the entire thread URL (linking to it is great). Please be as descriptive (but brief) as possible in the topic title when you post. Thanks.

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