Hey Jared!  Sorry to hear about your loss.  I don't know what to say.

I also realized that I owe you a tape of the radio show from months ago.  As a bonus for my tardiness, I'll send a couple of my other recent shows, which were very lively!

I don't have any real answers about the forum.  Laura has problems that none of us is qualified to deal with.  I'm still trying to figure out how to respond to a litany of e-mails she sent me while I was away last week.  I don't want to say the wrong thing, but I don't want to lie to her about what I thought about her stunt last week.

And the problem is, my own cup is pretty full lately, which is why I haven't been online much.

I'll try to put some thought into this, but if you wanted to create a new forum category, you might consider a politics forum separate from more directly religious issues.  I keep resolving to stop making posts about politics, but then people keep responding to them, while others opt out completely.  There's an interest by maybe a third of the forum to discuss political issues, and I'm worried that we sometimes crowd the rest out.  However, I think it's important to discuss politics because regardless of our political affiliations, there is a commonality we share as ex-fundamentalists that make political discussions interesting.  Most of us are less likely to tow a particular line that applies to all issues, and we have some very interesting "hybrid" thoughts here.  And for the most part, the political discussions have been very civil, except maybe one thread on the war (and Laura's flag, but that wasn't really a political discussion per se).

Another possibility you might consider for a forum is a discussion about positive post-fundy philosophy, ie. instead of slamming what we don't believe, we discuss what positive philosophies and inspirations we've found as an alternative.

Lastly, I do feel that theist and other non-materialist ex-fundies get hit with a lot of negative "triggered" comments.  Maybe a special forum for post-fundy theists or other non-materialists to discuss post-fundy spiritualism.  I'm concerned that we've driven some religious ex-fundies off the board.

To make room for any of these, you could merge the Bucket and the Humor forums.  There's a lot of overlap there anyway.  There are a couple of other forums that don't get much traffic that might be better used for more focused discussion categories.

In the meantime, I'll try to check the site at least once a day, even if I don't have time to post. 

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I'll try to put some thought into this, but if you wanted to create a new forum category, you might consider a politics forum separate from more directly religious issues. I keep resolving to stop making posts about politics, but then people keep responding to them, while others opt out completely. There's an interest by maybe a third of the forum to discuss political issues, and I'm worried that we sometimes crowd the rest out. However, I think it's important to discuss politics because regardless of our political affiliations, there is a commonality we share as ex-fundamentalists that make political discussions interesting. Most of us are less likely to tow a particular line that applies to all issues, and we have some very interesting "hybrid" thoughts here. And for the most part, the political discussions have been very civil, except maybe one thread on the war (and Laura's flag, but that wasn't really a political discussion per se).

Another possibility you might consider for a forum is a discussion about positive post-fundy philosophy, ie. instead of slamming what we don't believe, we discuss what positive philosophies and inspirations we've found as an alternative.

Lastly, I do feel that theist and other non-materialist ex-fundies get hit with a lot of negative "triggered" comments.  Maybe a special forum for post-fundy theists or other non-materialists to discuss post-fundy spiritualism.  I'm concerned that we've driven some religious ex-fundies off the board.

To make room for any of these, you could merge the Bucket and the Humor forums.  There's a lot of overlap there anyway.  There are a couple of other forums that don't get much traffic that might be better used for more focused discussion categories.

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I agree!

I think a politics and a spirituality forum would be great additions, with a couple other forums being consolidated.  Those uninterested in political debate can stay out of that particular forum, and those interested in politics can continue to post and discuss without worry that they may be monopolizing the general forum.  Likewise for a forum focused on post-fundy spirituality.   I don't see anything wrong with adding or subtracting sub-forums now and then.  As the members and nature of the board evolves, the structure of it should evolve as necessary. 

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Drummond wrote:I'll try to put some thought into this, but if you wanted to create a new forum category, you might consider a politics forum separate from more directly religious issues. I keep resolving to stop making posts about politics, but then people keep responding to them, while others opt out completely. There's an interest by maybe a third of the forum to discuss political issues, and I'm worried that we sometimes crowd the rest out. However, I think it's important to discuss politics because regardless of our political affiliations, there is a commonality we share as ex-fundamentalists that make political discussions interesting. Most of us are less likely to tow a particular line that applies to all issues, and we have some very interesting "hybrid" thoughts here. And for the most part,

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I'm a little uncomfortable about a "positive" forum.  It might make more sense to have an "Unrestricted rant" forum.  People who have come through the process and have a positive outlook can hold there own in any reasonable debate,no matter how robust.  Vulnerable people may need protection and support, but the thoughtful "liberal" Christian, Eastern religion, and atheist/deist community can hold their own. 

A second comment:  as the need to vent wears off, the need to deal with family, friends, and associates still caught up in a totalitarian religious thought system increases.  People start dealing with parents and siblings still "in the faith" and questions of how to raise their children.  At this point, I think that everyone but the most nihilistic starts looking for positive values and coping techniques.  It might even be a good enough reason for some of the old timers to hang around!

Jamie

It would be good to have a closed thread maybe of links and such (correct me if there already is) Answers to FAQs, links to articles, Mods can post only so the confusing array of repetitive links and links to substandard crap info, can be culled from the mass of info available.  I am of the mind that there are some good, subtle tweaks that could go a long way here, but overall we have what we need to serve people crossing the bridge from religious dogma to what ever is on the other side of the bridge for them.

I will be so bold as to say, the complete forum-wide moratorium against Christ babble and moderate preachiness is a mistake.  It is insular and perpetuates fundamentalist behavior.  And it shows that we cannot handle cross examination, so how can we be so sure that we are ok in walking away from the dogma if we can? handle a mild online peppering of religiospeek?  It is also another reason why things got so boring, no on topic conflict/discussion to chew on and execise on.  Why else have so many in the past sought this conflict elsewhere since the prohibition was enfoced?  Support forum should remain off limits to this, but give the preachy folks a room to plead their case.  It is good exercise and very informative/educational to pick it apart, and those forays here in the past were where this place was at its most helpful, when the 2 opposing views mixed it up.  It has stagnated since.  And if it is too much for newbies they should not go read it.  Many Jesus freak boreds extend a room for athiests and skeptics to pitch their worldview.  We should do likewise.  Otherwise we show we are too weak to defend our perogative.  Impotence...  Who knows, we may change a few minds.

Lastly

There needs to be a set approach to completely oversensitive people who need more than we can give them and dominate the whole climate of the forum.  This would be beneficial so that the mods will not face endless overwhelming streams of hystrionic pleas to ban all that offends.  As well as other forum members dont end up in the predicament of getting fucking fed up and poking a jab at these people, and end up feeling and looking like a complete dick because they refuse to give someone extra special red carpet kid glove treatment after two years of doing so to no benefit.

Gentle Members (once again),

We are receiving many good observations and thoughts on the subject of reorganizing, re-zoning, or otherwise ?ixing?this board to make it a better place ?OR at least to clarify our current position and future direction. 

I think one of the biggest points to take away from the discussion so far is that this board is EVOLVING and has changed and grown and matured just as its original members have.

When I first took over this board back in 2001, not only was it a somewhat disorganized, random rabble, but also most of the members were relatively fresh from their fundy lives ?or even still in them to some extent.  The feelings and thoughts expressed were raw, hurting, and angry.  Not to say that many such feelings are no longer expressed on this board (because they still are), but there now exists a core of WA members who have been through the fire, come out on the other side, and are ready to move on ?or at least have no interest in talking about their fundy pain with the passion they once had.  The fundy experience is (thankfully) becoming a memory to deal with and not an obstacle to overcome.

This shows that healing is possible and that this board has helped to (I think anyway) a significant degree in allowing fundy walk aways to find support when little was available anywhere else.

That some who have survived through this walking away experience and wish to move on and away from the board is natural.  But, many (I daresay most) veteran WA members have obviously found a support community ?a community of like-minded friends ?SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  they do not wish to leave.  Maybe they don? feel the need to hang out here all the time like they did when they were new to walking away (then again, maybe there are some healed addicts to this board - I like to think of them as groupies ). But, the friendships and bonds they have formed are ones they wish to continue.  Indeed.  So, be it.  I? say that means that this place is working.

The problem, as pointed out within this discussion, is that we now have to decide how best to both the bonded veterans and the incoming newbies who still need the same kind of compassionate support, advise, and direction that overwhelmed this board in the ?ld days.?

I admit I? still trying to figure out how best to do this.  As I noted in an earlier post, I?l be enacting some changes by phases and see how they go.  First, I am gathering the names and email addresses of any of those who wish to volunteer for moderation duty.  Increasing the benign policing of this place is priority one.   I mentioned earlier that I was also considering a ?eterans Forum?and a ?ewbies Forum.?SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  So far, although the comments have been mixed (both for and against) on this idea, the majority appears to favor not separating veterans and newbies per se.  I agree with this.  But, I do think that a recombination of some of the existing forums is in order to allow at least one forum for support, compassion, and advice on walking away, and at least one forum for discussion on less ?aw and desperate?topics (for want of a better term).  Of course there should always be room somewhere for completely off (WA) topic discussion ?either humorous or serious.

One very big solution to making this a better community is something I have wanted for a very long time ?our own web site.   As some of you may know, I have been trying to get a response from the original owners of the original Walk Away web site (IFAS: Institute for First Amendment Studies) for the past two years.  I have not received a response from them since they first re-linked their web page to our board (after the old discussion board died).  Now, both the original Walk Away web site and the main IFAS site is gone.  I can find no information on this. ( If anyone has any ?please share.) Currently this board is all that is left of the whole Walk Away thing. We are it.

So, I say, let? make it happen.  I will be making a separate post on plans to create and maintain our own web site.  In the meantime, please add any comments, suggestions, or advice on this topic.  I think this board ?this community - has a bright future.  But, we need both input and hands on help. Please give one or both.  I?l need names (WA IDs and real names) as well as emails of those who wish to take an active part in helping out around here.  Operators are standing by?

There was a void created in my life when I left the church, not only my life but also the life of my family. Traditions, rituals and rites that I had been weaning myself away from were suddenly, and to a degree violently, gone. Looking back I can say that I went through the grieving process.

Joining the support group at Walk Away gave me a venue to vent. It allowed me to put into the black and white all of the emotions that I was experiencing. It didn? take me long to see that one of my underlying motives was to join a group similar to the church that I had left. What I knew then that I didn? want was to become what I had left under a different banner. I didn? want to proselytize people away from their faith as I had left mine. The conditioning of the church to do this was almost overwhelming for it was in convincing others of the rightness of our faith that motivated us. The more people that believed what we believed was a sure-fire indicator that God was on our side.

Processing out meant following up on what had initiated my departure from Christianity. That was discovering the truth as I saw it through reason and study. For me that process was following the avenues of information about the development of ancient religions, of studying the other side of the religious equation as passionately as I had studied theology. It meant dedicating myself to filtering through the junk regarding religion and finding reliable sources with valid credentials. This work consumed me for a time. When I realized that I was falling back into the familiar bipolarism that had marked my religious zeal I throttled back on my reverse witch hunt.

For me, the web community at Walk Away has been a healing balm. In my personal life I still live in the rural community of my former church mates. We see each other at baseball games. I have even coached their children at times. I still get the questions of why I left and I gently change the subject, as these are good, albeit misguided, people. My loathing for their pastor has simmered to a tolerable dislike. My family has for the moment backed off of their questioning as I have taken a couple of years to gently reveal to them what I have learned about the subject of religion. Walk Away helped me through all of this and I am ?ternally?grateful.

Much of what religion taught us we have carried away with us. We were taught to see evil everywhere. We were taught to band together to fight evil. We were given purpose through such devices as proselytizing, devotional mechanisms, guilt. Redirecting those energies is not an easy task. Literally they involve reinventing ourselves. To my knowledge there aren? very many deprogrammers for people who have left the mainstream religions behind. There are very few resources available to help people out of the religious matrix. In fact, it is easy to find one? self between battle lines of Atheists and Christians in a very confusing crossfire. And as we were taught to take a side by religion (the "for me or against me" syndrome) were also taught that the middle ground was evil. I don? think that that is true. In fact, I believe that life seeks a balance to sustain health. Extremism in any form is a quick road to dysfunction.

Walk Away has provided a haven to help people in the redefining process. The class that I came in with has indeed evolved (to steal St. Thomas?excellent choice of words). Some still carry bitterness towards the fundys, some carry psychological scars that may never heal. Words or events can still trigger us. We quickly circle the wagons anytime a troll comes into our midst to tell us all that we are going to hell. For the most part we have decided that we don? want to become another form of a church. No way.

The word that comes to mind when I consider the redefinition of Walk Away is presence. WA is not a group in the typical sense of the word. We have no motivation to advance our cause to prove anything right or wrong. We don? need tithing. We don? need to find evil so substantiate ourselves with a common enemy. This place is not a force, it is the presence of a peaceful atmosphere to sort through the insidious web of fundamentalist dogma. People that come here often have need of such a haven. If we are to redefine ourselves then perhaps we should keep in mind the purpose of the forum. Ultimately and hopefully WA is a stepping stone on the way into sound reasoning and out of extreme ways. To me St. Thomas maintains a very even keel when dealing with the understandably extreme ways of some of us, allowing people the space to work their way through what troubles them without muscling up on people.

As we who have evolved out of the fundy world have continued to be a part of the community at WA we should bear in mind and learn to recognize the needs of people who find us. We should also bear in mind that we carry inside of us our personal histories of leaving the fold. We can help others help themselves out of the muck of fundamentalist dogma. We carry no obligation to persuade people in their personal faith but we do have the experience of moving beyond the matrix into reasonable thought and we can use that experience to help someone else achieve the same.

What would I change about the structure of the forum? I would recommend perhaps separating the Lion? Den into a Political Forum and Deep Religious Discussions Forum. I agree with Dok? assessment of closing a few threads to comments and keeping the Support Forum free from flames. Perhaps combine the Bucket and Humor Therapy into a single forum. A couple of more moderators would be a good idea to help out with the coverage and assist with any problems. Hats off to Voltaire and Drummond for the jobs that they do around here.

And St. Thomas, thank you for being the guardian of this awesome place.

Reply to : zarathustra ---beautiful post Zar.

I don't know what I could add except it took me 2 yrs to sort out/find my way again. I had come to a point in my life that I could no longer believe and I couldn't make that which I had been taught mesh/jive in the real world.  Hell, I was unfamiliar with the term fundamentalism.

The anger, hurt, betrayal and frustrations were so great at times. Real emotions but nowhere/no way of diffusing. (Not exactly dinner topic/share with co-workers...."Hey, I 'm losing my faith/religion!!!!") And not being able to discuss that which is going on, the need for some truthful answers, other than stock/standard replies....."Oh ye of little faith" or  "Just try a little harder.

Came across this site, quite by accident. So glad St Thomas "Left the light on" so's to speak.

Came across this article.....may help the new members in their journey/search. Didn't know where to place and apologies the print so small.

Wish all of you the peace of mind you so richly deserve.

Stumpy

www.infidels.org/electronic/email/ex-tian/psychological_issues_of_former_m.htm

(shit/damn.....I think I may have gotten this thing/link to work.....big grin

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Here's a minor point to consider in the policies for this board. I'm considering any time a "rescuer" puts a proselytizing post into the Personal Introductions section that the post be summarily deleted without warning. I was really upset to see that fundie there a while back swoop in like a vulture on one of our new members. Particularly in the PI section people are vulnerable when they start posting for the first time. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

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I wholeheartedly agree with this!

Reply to : Stumpy

Thank you for that link!  In the IE browser you can adjust the text size and it's just fine.  I perused the Dr's homepage and he has some awesome resources.

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Reply to : VoltaireHere's a minor point to consider in the policies for this board. I'm considering any time a "rescuer" puts a proselytizing post into the Personal Introductions section that the post be summarily deleted without warning. I was really upset to see that fundie there a while back swoop in like a vulture on one of our new members. Particularly in the PI section people are vulnerable when they start posting for the first time. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I wholeheartedly agree with this!

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Me too.  It would have been much better than what ensued.

I'm on the Zara bandwagon today too, I read it, cant remember anything but it was a good thoughtful post, but it lacked nudity.

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The Internet will undo more faith in the next twenty years than books have done in the last hundred.

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I hope that turns out to be true....and yes, what a fantastic tool the Internet was for me. I remember those nights I was up late, poring over all the info. and pages on the infidels.org website, and then, of course, I found this forum. Talk about a reality check and a shock to your Christian worldview! Without the Internet available to me...I may have only had a few obtuse skeptical writings available to me at my inadequate and understocked local library. Would I have taken the time and effort to find out who the best freethinking or atheist or agnostic or skeptic writers were? Would I have then gone down to a bookstore and ordered some of those books? I doubt it...I was too lazy...and it was just too easy to keep on believing, maintaining the spiritual status quo. Its possible that, without the Internet, I would still be in the church today.


In my view, the people who stay in Christianity will have to make a much more conscious effort to do so. They'll have to guard their worldview more closely, they'll have to further marginalize and isolate themselves from mainstream society...they'll have to do this, because in mainstream society, the core Christian beliefs will become almost universally recognized to be archaic myths, not even worth serious consideration. The Christian evangelist will be viewed with awkward amusement...viewed no differently than some kook standing on a street corner proclaiming that the world is flat. (most people in our society already see fundamentalist Christians in that same kooky light.)

And then, the result within the fundamentalist Christian community...the increased isolation, the increased indoctrination, the increased "Us VS. Them" mentality within their churches. In essence, they'll continue to become more cult-like, and more of a fringe. Its just too bad for the children that are gonna have to grow up and become indoctrinated into their delusional skydad fantasies...but hopefully, the Internet will be readily available to those children...for any of them who have curiosity or honest doubts. If I had the Internet when I was first confronted with the Christian gospel, I doubt I would have ever became a believer in the first place.

But I don't have any illusions.  I'm pretty certain that the Christian religion will be alive and well throughout my lifetime...even if it must evolve or change form in order to survive.  Christianity has too much in common with the cockroach, yknow.

i have very little time to post at the moment which is frustrating. love the idea of a website.

back soon

I haven't said too much here but have been reading all of this and think what seems to be evolving is great.  I really like the website idea.  I also like the spirituality forum and the community forum.  I was intrigued by Dok's idea about having a space for debate with fundies, but I agree with paginity ... something like that might be hard to moderate and keep contained?  

Thanks so much to the moderators ... I'm so grateful for this board.  It really has helped me understand things better and feel like less of a freak!  Wish I had more to contribute but just wanted to say thanks and it looks good!

I think a "Time Out" measure would be good.  If someone is going too far and need a stern warning, a 2 day ban to cool off, readjust behavior etc.  Or even better, when they log on they can only access ONE ROOM.  The TIME OUT room.  A locked thread with a message/warning. for a couple days.  Their 2 days start the first time they log on after the infraction. 

Just an idea

I know I haven't said much, but I can't think of anything new that's already been said here.

Except for one thing (and maybe someone else mentioned this and I just missed it). I know at other forums, they have separate moderators for each different area. The Internet Infidels forum is a good example. So when we "hire" new moderators, will some of them be "Support Moderators" and others be "Lion's Den Moderators"? It seems like that might be a good way for some of the moderators who might be feeling burnt out to still maintain a presence in the forum. They can move to a non-religion related area of the forum and moderate there. Also, it might prevent the moderators from having a huge backlog of problems, if they only have to monitor one area.

Also, I'd love to help out with the website. I think that's one of the best ideas that's come up.

Edited because I can't spell worth crap.

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Very interesting. I spent a lot of time reading the material on the Internet Infidels website myself when I walked away. In fact the exact moment I decided to dump it all I had one of their articles up on on my screen. Hooray for the Internet Infidels!Further thoughts about proselytizing posts in the Personal Introduction section. I think instead of deleting these kind of posts, I'll replace it with something like this:This post has been replaced because it violates our primary rule: no proselytizing. People in the Perso

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Good text, Voltaire,

It goes without saying (but I'll ask the question anyway...) 

I guess the regulars shouldn't respond/flame attempts to proselytise and just wait for a mod to zap the offending post.  Otherwise we just extend the thread off topic and make the problem worse ?

Cheers,

Mark

Good text, Voltaire.  I say, "make it so."    

Until we get some extra mods in here I would like to "deputize" all regular members as community watch dogs (or sentries or helpers or police  or whatever) to assist in the "policing" of this board.   If you see something that aint supposed to be (like a proselytising fundy or nasty troll etc.) please bring it to the attention of one of the existing mods (Voltaire, Drummond, or myself) via PM.  I just got a heads-up for example on an advertising post from someone named Anthro.  He has been banned and his posts deleted. 

The idea about putting a mod dedicated to a specific forum in each forum is one I have wanted to put in place for awhile.   But, there is just three of us.  And even the Trinity can't be everywhere at once.    But, soon we shall have a least a few more mods to assist.  More details on this and the web site project  to follow shortly.

I've been scanning this topic with interest.  Since I'm not really an ex-fundamentalist, just an off-label user of WA, to borrow a term from the prescription drug industry, I would not dream of trying to tell the regular members how the forum should be run. 

You have brought The Bucket to my attention, and I have found some interesting items there.  Maybe re-naming it would have made me look there sooner, or you could periodically post a description of the various forums with a little more info than the drop-down menu can hold.

I haven't read everything, I've been away but still sort of here, if ya know what I mean, but I've skimmed most of this.  A website is a good idea, as is forums like 'spirituality' and separate mods.  This really is perhaps just going to be me, but I've noticed after skipping around the internet prepping for uni, that there are a larger number of teens/young people in the same place as me.  Of course there are places where they gravitate too, but from what I've found to date there is no specific place for support and help.  Most places have their share of Bible thumpers who pounce as soon as someone raises their head above the parapet.  Perhaps a forum for young people walking away, just a thought.  Also should anyone (teen wise) stumble on this place, its kinda intimidating when everyone is considerably older and more widely read than you.  As I said, just a thought, feel free to ignore me, goodness knows its not like I post a whole lot at the moment.