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Title: The new girl
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GDTeacher
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 6:02 PM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

All anyone would have to do to forget it would be to read the apologetics and FARMS and believe them. Mormons have an answer for everything, whether its probable or not. Apologetics give you just enough information to keep hangin on...that thread that allows you to not totally commit intellectual suicide. All anyone of us would need to do would be to hold onto that thread, be happy with it, and ignore all the rest. Mormons stay in the church so long because anything even slightly contradictory to Mormon history or doctrine is considered to be "of the devil" or "anti-Mormon"- even the most objective stuff. So, you'd just need to brush it all of as Satan's tool to pull you away, and you'd be content ignoring even the most obvious of facts.

I think whether or not what you say is true here is really related to how far you are down the path of understanding.  Once you understand the methodologies used by apologists to create cryptic scenarios of plausibility, you can really have little respect for anything they write, at least in my opinon.  It reminds me of when I was learning about Santa Claus.  I was hearing and seeing evidence that Santa wasn't a real person.  I thought, "No, I can't and don't want to believe that."  I chose to believe, but really doubted.  That Christmas I stayed awake, hearing the sounds in the house, trying to make sense of the sounds.  I heard the mixed nuts in a metal can.  I heard paper crinkling.  I heard the floor creaking.  I heard the door opening and closing.  I heard the low whispers.  As things were quieting down, I heard that last sounds of night, my parents walking by my door to their bedroom.  For thirty minutes, I lay still, listening for Santa, listening for any other noise.  There was silence.  Quietly I tiptoed downstairs.  Santa had been there.  Then I knew for sure my parents were the physical representation of a mythical Santa (well, I didn't really think of it that way, I was only eight, but you get the idea).  I could not go back and read the stories of St. Nick and Santa and believe them in the same way.  I had crossed the line.

Whether you can go back to reading apologetic literature and actually believing it depends on how far you have traveled and how well you understand the environs.  For me, there is no going back, no matter how much I may want to or wish to, I cannot pray, imagine, read, or think myself back into the mindset of TBM literalism and accept the correlated, sanitized story versions of the foundational elements of the church.

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"All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why" --James Thurber

"Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous." -- Henry David Thoreau

butternutcheeselog
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 6:08 PM)

Reply to : GDTeacher

Reply to : ajsobrioAll anyone would have to do to forget it would be to read the apologetics and FARMS and believe them. Mormons have an answer for everything, whether its probable or not. Apologetics give you just enough information to keep hangin on...that thread that allows you to not totally commit intellectual suicide. All anyone of us would need to do would be to hold onto that thread, be happy with it, and ignore all the rest. Mormons stay in the church so long because anything even slightly contradictory to Mormon history or doctrine is considered to be "of the devil" or "anti-Mormon"- even the most objective stuff. So, you'd just need to brush it all of as Satan's tool to pull you away, and you'd be content ignoring even the most obvious of facts.I think wheth

Well said brother GDT.

  -BNCL-

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"Even a thought, even a possibility, can shatter us and transform us."

Friedrich Nietzsche

NaturalMan
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 6:13 PM)

Reply to : GDTeacher

Well said brother GDT.

  -BNCL-


Yes !  Very good indeed.
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"Is this a something? Or... is this a nothing?

Barbara Hendrickson - BIG LOVE

Che Dali
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 6:22 PM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

Amber,

The other thing I wanted to recommend to you, if nobody has already in this marathon thread, is the Late LDS Man's Rules of Disengagement here.


The rules of disengagement are not arbitrary.  Following them can help make the changes in your attitudes toward Mormonism less traumatic, for yourself and for the people you are close to.

Put family relationships first. Family and other loved ones are more important than most other considerations. People are more important than things and maintaining family relationships is more important than many other things including emotional comfort with the institutional church.

GO SLOW!!! A major paradigm shift can be taxing in ways we would not imagine. There is a strong temptation to bolt and run when we discover that the church isn't all it claims to be.  Don't yield to it.

Be very careful about who you talk to about your doubts. Don't talk about disbelief unless you are certain the people you are talking with empathize with you.  The NOM forum is a safe place for such discussion.

Don't burn any bridges. You never know when you may need to use them again or when you'll want others to be able to follow you.


I think probably most of the people here who've managed to disentangle themselves from the sticky web of Mormonism have followed them to some extent and can vouch for them, like I can.

It took me over 3 years to disentangle myself from Mormonism with my family, in tact.

Everybody's social situation is unique and only you can determine what is best for you in your life. You're in a good position, with a serious boyfriend who is not LDS, but cares about you enough to take your religion seriously.

One of my intellectual heros is Ralph Waldo Emerson who said, "The only thing that is sacred after all is the integrity of our own minds."

I believe that. For me I had to live my life with integrity and confront the nagging doubts that I'd managed to keep at bay for many years in the back of my mind, regardless of the social consequences. For my DW, it was just the opposite. The social implications prevented her from confronting the serious issues facing the church.

That's what took me 3 years to negotiate my way out. I value my family more than I value life itself. The last thing I wanted to do was give up what was most precious to me, my marriage and my children.

That we are faced with the very real prospect of losing what is most precious to us, for following the dictates of our conscience, is perhaps the greatest crime of Mormonism, and the biggest reason to avoid becoming a pawn for the abusive, dehumanizing cult of hero worship.

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--------------------------------------------------------------
"I do not believe in the creed professed by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." Thomas Paine

"The more the fruits of knowledge become accessible to men, the more widespread is the decline of religious belief." Sigmund Freud

"Darwinism is the story of humanity"s liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled by a power higher than itself" Philip Johnson

"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion." Robert M Pirsig

rittermonster06
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 8:21 PM)

Hello everyone,

My name is Ryan (a.k.a. the lucky guy whom Amber described as "the most wonderful non-member" in her original post).

I just wanted to say THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for all of you who have taken the time to respond to Amber's questions...  You are all able to relate to her situation in a way that I am just not capable of, no matter how hard I try, and I greatly appreciate all of the compassionate support that you have given her.

Thank you again, it means a lot to both of us.

-Ryan

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Mayan Elephant
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 8:25 PM)

Reply to : rittermonster06



Hello everyone,My name is Ryan (a.k.a. the lucky guy whom Amberdescribed as"the most wonderful non-member" in her original post).I just wanted to say THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for all of you who have taken the time to respond to Amber's questions... You are all able to relate to her situation in a way that I am just not capable of, no matter how hard I try, and I greatly appreciate all of the compassionate support that you have given her.Thank you again, it means a lot to both of us.-Ryan




stick around bro, mr. wright is away for more important stuff. we may need you to chuck some stones around in our glass house.
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I"m going to get [The Dangerous Book for Boys and the Dangerous Book for Girls] for our 12 year old daughter.

-Dathon on NOM, 8/25/2007

Abner Doon
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 8:46 PM)

Reply to : ajsobrio



Have any of you ever gone back?





Absolutely. I had a severe doubts regarding the church for at least 3 years, yet I still decided to plug myself back into the Motrix and go on a mission. The church's control goes deeper than you may realize. I was hoping that somehow I'd have spiritual experiences or encounter something to overcome my doubts during a 2-year total immersion in Mormonism. Not until my mission was over did I realize I had already known the truth about the church for years, but I just wouldn't let myself accept it. It really amazes me when people lose faith in a matter of days or weeks. Of course, that's probably just when the straw breaks the camel's back. I can't imagine someone going from being completely happy in the church (and having no awareness of its critical flaws) to completely losing faith in a short period of time. But I suppose stanger things have happened. People certainly can sign up with relative ease. Missionaries would be overjoyed to meet and baptize someone in the same week.
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Cousin Exmo
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 9:35 PM)

Reply to : AmberAle

I was talking about this very subject with a clergy friend of mine. I don't know the titles of the Episcopal Church, but he's some sort of ordained Episcopal minister (do they call them Reverends?). One thing I like about the Episcopal Church is that they are a "thinking" church. Yes, they have liturgical traditions, but they realize that traditions and emotions aren't enough. There must be reasoning involved too. He once told me that the reason the Episcopal Church has gone in that direction is that if they didn't, they would spiral into unhealthy literalistic Fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible, etc.


My Episcopal friend agrees with the statement that they are a "thinking church" and he will ask his wife, an ordained Episcopal minister and former Mormon, about the rest of AmberAle's post.  Hopefully next week, I will return and report.

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hiker56

Moby Joe
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 9:52 PM)

Yeah, I spent a long time trying to make myself go back. And yes, you could read the apologetics and try to be happy with it, but I think you know, as every on this board does, that your brain won't let you do that and be content. The rush of fear that accompanied my first acceptance that the church may be full of lies was also so liberating that, even then, I knew in my core that I could never go back. It hurt like hell. I wanted to turn off my brain and just accept what they told me. But I knew I couldn't. The apologetics may have their answers, but they don't really make sense. I feel that determining what seems true isn't really a conscious mental process for me. My brain makes its conclusions and then hands me the result. What I do with that result is my choice, but I can't alter the facts or the way the facts interplay to make my perception of truth.

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And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you very uncomfortable for a while, but eventually you'll embrace it and feel a lot better.

Scoutmaster
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 11:15 PM)

Reply to : rittermonster06

Hello everyone,My name is Ryan (a.k.a. the lucky guy whom Amberdescribed as"the most wonderful non-member" in her original post).I just wanted to say THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for all of you who have taken the time to respond to Amber's questions... You are all able to relate to her situation in a way that I am just not capable of, no matter how hard I try, and I greatly appreciate all of the compassionate support that you have given her.Thank you again, it means a lot to both of us.-Ryan

Welcome aboard.  Please post an introduction thread of your own so this one doesn't get hijacked by the Foyerite welcome wagon.  We're a sociable group and glad to have you.  Tell us about yourself and ask about any aspect of Mormonism you'd like to understand better. 

ptf  

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"I left the woods for as a good a reason as I went there." Thoreau

Che Dali
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 11:27 PM)

Reply to : rittermonster06



Hello everyone,My name is Ryan (a.k.a. the lucky guy whom Amberdescribed as"the most wonderful non-member" in her original post).I just wanted to say THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for all of you who have taken the time to respond to Amber's questions... You are all able to relate to her situation in a way that I am just not capable of, no matter how hard I try, and I greatly appreciate all of the compassionate support that you have given her.Thank you again, it means a lot to both of us.-Ryan





Welcome rittermonster06,

It sounds like you've got a wonderful, intelligent young woman on your hands.
Take good care of her. And beware of her family's expectations of you to join their cult.
It's very seductive.
usertype:3 tt= 0

--------------------------------------------------------------
"I do not believe in the creed professed by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." Thomas Paine

"The more the fruits of knowledge become accessible to men, the more widespread is the decline of religious belief." Sigmund Freud

"Darwinism is the story of humanity"s liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled by a power higher than itself" Philip Johnson

"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion." Robert M Pirsig

Oedipa_Maas
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 11:28 PM)

Reply to : ajsobrio



Perhaps its just me and perhaps its just too early, but do any of you ever feel like you want to just drop all these issues you have with the church and run back? Even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I'm pretty sure I could get right back in, only read talks and the BOM and effectively force myself to forget I ever did this. It would be much easier, safer, et cetera. The scary thing is that I know I could totally brainwash myself into either forgetting all of these issues or just supressing them with relatively little effort. Have any of you ever gone back?




Hi Amber! When I first started questioning (at 18--I'm 25 now), I definitely felt that I could still believe. I really, really, desperately wanted to believe, in fact. For about 6 months, I was able to maintain what I'd call the belief that I believed. That didn't work too well though, so I started questioning again. About two years after that, I had my epiphany. What a relief! After experiencing doubts and fears similar to those you're describing, I was finally completely free. Now I can't imagine anything that could make me go back to believing again.

Like GD Teacher said, whether you can go back to believing depends on what stage of the process you're in now. It sounds like you might be in the beginning, so you might have a chance.... However, I'd strongly, strongly caution you against "running back" now. As others here have mentioned, it's much better to figure your beliefs out when you're young and haven't based too many major life decisions on religious teachings that, in your heart of hearts, you might not believe in. And who knows? After reading all the objective literature, really and sincerely questioning the truth of the Mormon church, praying for the actual truth, and thinking things through, you might come out with a rock-solid testimony. If you give up now though, any testimony you have will always be a little bit fake--and you will know that, even if no one else does.
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--------------------------------------------------------------
"and god help you if you are a phoenix
and you dare to rise up from the ash
a thousand eyes will smolder with jealousy
while you are just flying past"
~ani difranco

Scoutmaster
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(Date Posted:11/17/2005 11:59 PM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

All anyone would have to do to forget it would be to read the apologetics and FARMS and believe them.

It's not that easy.  You can physically go back to church but it's a gut wrenching experience once you understand the manmade control system that is at work.  I know.  I tried.  DW said something to the effect that I drove every ounce of Spirit out of sacrament meeting that day and that Satan himself was too intimidated by me to even try to take advantage of the situation.  And I wasn't even trying to be hateful.  It just came naturally.

It came naturally because mentally you can't go back.  When you're a 40 year old father of two girls entering their teenage years you can't accept that God would command Joseph Smith at age 36 to take young teenage girls as his plural wife's and then lie about it to his wife and to the public.  God doesn't pull that kind of sh!t.

When you hear anyone say 'the prophet will never lead the Saints astray' and remember the mental image of the men, women, and children of the Fancher party being murdered execution style (one bullet straight into the front foreheads) at Mountain Meadows by Priesthood holding men who had been worked into a lather by Brigham Young - you can't go back.

Everytime you hear someone say 'the BoM is a record of ancient people on the American continent who came from Israel and are the forefathers of native Americans' you want to scream out that DNA evidence proves it's not true and there's not a shred of archeological evidence to support that assertion.

Everytime someone says 'Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who translated ancient papyri' you yell bullsh!t at the top of your lungs inside your head because you know they have been translated by respected academics who all identify them as funeral texts.

And worst of all, when you see the lack of mercy church members and leaders have for any degree of non-conformity to the gospel as they see it and begin to bestow guilt upon you and your loves ones (contributing to sustained depression in your loved ones) you want to take a 2x4 to the sides of their heads to knock some Christ-like love into their sorry a$$es.

All of these things make it next to impossible to go back, physically or mentally.  But if you can, if you want to, and if it suits you - all the more power to you.  But you better be prepared to drop that non-member boyfriend of yours right now.  Unless he buys into this crazy cult and gets baptized for you like I did for a girl when I was 19 you won't be married in the temple, you'll likely never be a Primary President, Relief Society President, and the last thing any bishop would do is put a woman who married a non-member in the Young Women's Presidency.  You would be a bad example to the YW.  They don't want YW marrying non-members outside the temple.  So with that fine boyfriend you have you would always be on the outside of the church looking in, never having significant opportunity to exhibit your talents and skills.  That's reality. 

So which do you want for your life: 

a)  a forced belief in a religious institution you suspect to be fraudulent and the opportunity to work within that institution to be what that institution defines for you (i.e. a homemaker and mother of children married to a patriarchal RM priesthood holder and subject to his authority)?

b)  an opportunity to continue your current relationship and solely define who you want to be without regard for the cookie-cutter definition and purpose of womanhood defined by the LDS church?

Sorry if I come across sounding harsh but I was in your boyfriend's position and subjugated my intellect and identity to join the church and obtain the approbation of a young, beautiful LDS girl who loved me.  It took me twenty years to admit that I converted out of arrogance (I had read all the "anti" Mormon literature and thought I knew better) and for love to an institution that robbed me of who I am.  Whatever you choose for yourself in regards to the church, you have no right by default to choose that for your boyfriend.

Best of Luck,

mike

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"I left the woods for as a good a reason as I went there." Thoreau

belaja
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 12:18 AM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

All anyone would have to do to forget it would be to read the apologetics and FARMS and believe them. Mormons have an answer for everything, whether its probable or not. Apologetics give you just enough information to keep hangin on...that thread that allows you to not totally commit intellectual suicide. All anyone of us would need to do would be to hold onto that thread, be happy with it, and ignore all the rest. Mormons stay in the church so long because anything even slightly contradictory to Mormon history or doctrine is considered to be "of the devil" or "anti-Mormon"- even the most objective stuff. So, you'd just need to brush it all of as Satan's tool to pull you away, and you'd be content ignoring even the most obvious of facts.

Well, have you actually TRIED to do this?  Is it that easy to read the apologetics of FARMS and believe them?  If you have any integrity (something I don't get the impression you lack) and criticial thinking skills (which you also seem to possess) then FARMS is not going to cut it.  When I did believe, it was not because of FARMS.  Even as a believer I thought FARMS was pretty much full of shit and I was very offended by their tone and tactics.  Basically you have to shut down parts of your mind to make it happen.  I know because that was the corner I forced myself into because I WANTED to believe it.  I managed to just keep myself as much as I could in those narrow areas that I felt I could believe with integrity.  But eventually the box becomes so narrow that you have to either bust out of it or start maiming yourself in order to stay in it.  Is that what you really want?

I think that your reaction is natural.  In broader terms than religion, it's all about becoming a whole, conscious individual who has full integrity.  I know that in other areas of my life (my personal dysfunctions, difficult truths about the system in my family of origin, etc.) as I would start to make shadow things conscious and the old paradigms were breaking up, I'd often have nightmares around the theme of leaving a safe haven and being attacked or endangered in some way.  I'd always wake up in a sweat--but it always seemed to me as I calmed down that they were just anxiety dreams about changing my worldview and my way of relating.  The part of me that still wanted to be a child was freaking, but eventually, as I worked through stuff and found that I was surviving and even feeling MUCH better about life than I ever had before, the dreams faded, the anxiety disappeared.  I think it's pretty normal for you to feel this way and maybe it would help for you to go back and try it--just test it out.  Do you feel like you have integrity when you're re-immersed in Mormonism?  Can you be there wholeheartedly?  Do you have to put parts of yourself on that famous shelf along with your doubts?  Do you feel you're living in truth or just in safety and familiarity?  Only you can answer those questions for yourself and I don't think there's any harm in testing it out.  It's OK to take it slow and let yourself catch up with yourself. 

Just speaking from experience, I know that I eventually could no longer fragment myself any longer and the more I went the less I was willing play the mind games.  In fact, ultimately it became too excruciating.  As someone said here earlier, ultimately you have to leave Eden.  You can't unlearn what you've learned.

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OK, she"s deranged, but so, so playful.

--Eugene Hutz in "Everything is Illuminated"

ajsobrio
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 12:57 AM)

Reply to : Scoutmaster
Mike, thanks for laying out the options. I agree with much of what you've said. However, I would never have the audacity to choose for Ryan. And trust me he's too stubborn to do it for any other reason than that he believes it. I'm not that hot.
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rittermonster06
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 1:19 AM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

Reply to : ScoutmasterMike, thanks for laying out the options. I agree with much of what you've said. However, I would never have the audacity to choose for Ryan. And trust me he's too stubborn to do it for any other reason than that he believes it. I'm not that hot.

Ryan again...

I just want to make it clear that Amber has never "chosen" anything for me, or ever tried to force her beliefs onto me...  In fact, she has stuck up for me countless times in the face of pressure to do otherwise from her family, friends, etc.

And don't believe a word she says, she IS that hot...

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GDTeacher
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 1:19 AM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

I'm not that hot.
ajsobrio, I think you got it dead wrong here.  If you are willing to walk up to the edge of the Mormon cliff with your boyfriend, you gotta be hot.  Seriously.  Make sure you remember that.
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"All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why" --James Thurber

"Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous." -- Henry David Thoreau

GDTeacher
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 1:23 AM)

Reply to : rittermonster06

And don't believe a word she says, she IS that hot...


See ajsobrio!  What Ryan thinks is what counts here..., he ain't fibbin'.  Listen to him, even if you don't listen to me.
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"All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why" --James Thurber

"Shams and delusions are esteemed for soundest truths, while reality is fabulous." -- Henry David Thoreau

ajsobrio
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 1:28 AM)

Reply to : GDTeacher

Reply to : rittermonster06Anddon't believe a word she says, she IS that hot...See ajsobrio! What Ryan thinks is what counts here..., he ain't fibbin'. Listen to him, even if you don't listen to me.

 

Crap! So, now you're ganging up on me? You're both crazy!

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rittermonster06
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 1:44 AM)

Reply to : ajsobrio

Reply to : Crap! So, now you're ganging up on me? You're both crazy!

We're not ganging up on you...  Just tellin it like it is, copeisch?  But seriously, you are more courageous than you think for even having the intrepidity to make it to this site and post questions.

(Special shout-out to dictionary.com for the word intrepidity)

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ajsobrio
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 2:35 AM)

How do you guys write so much? And so articulately? I'll have to quit my job to keep up with you!

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Che Dali
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 2:38 AM)

Reply to : ajsobrio



How do you guys write so much? And so articulately? I'll have to quit my job to keep up with you!





Oh yeah. There is that. Didn't anybody warn you that the Foyer is as addictive as crack?

Next thing you know you'll be looking like your avatar when your hair and teeth start falling out.
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--------------------------------------------------------------
"I do not believe in the creed professed by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." Thomas Paine

"The more the fruits of knowledge become accessible to men, the more widespread is the decline of religious belief." Sigmund Freud

"Darwinism is the story of humanity"s liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled by a power higher than itself" Philip Johnson

"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion." Robert M Pirsig

MagicCicero
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(Date Posted:11/18/2005 7:43 AM)

Amber,

A warm welcome to the Foyer.  So many posts have already been made responding to your questions that I've forgotten what the questions were, and who said what and where!  There are lots of different people here who've each come to this place from many different directions.  There's no one right way to think or experience life.

As for myself, I spent years finding more and more things about the church that troubled me.  I asked myself a lot of the same questions you're asking here.  In the end, everyone has to answer those questions for themselves.  But for me, the only answer that made sense and gave me my integrity was that the church isn't true.

It was a huge leap to make.  I had begun to suspect it was so, I had stripped away the illogic of problematic doctrines and historical claims, I had progressively lost faith in almost everything the church taught.  And yet I clung onto the church like a man grasping at a clump of grass at the edge of a cliff.  Until one day, everything clicked.  Not a single thing in the universe had changed -- except my assumptions about the universe.

This is the greatest challenge you have to face in reaching whatever conclusions you do about the church.  All of the questions you've asked have their roots in a set of assumptions that the church taught you.  It teaches us to believe that it has the answers.  But the problem is, it also dictates the questions!  The church doesn't set up a system where we actually come to know anything for ourselves.  It teaches us, at our core, to mistrust ourselves.

So the best piece of advice I can give is just this:  trust yourself.  All of yourself.  Not just your feelings, but your logic, your reason as well.  Yeah, you could suppress your feelings and go back to trusting the apologists, but you'd be miserable there.  I know -- I tried something like that for years.  Answer these questions to your own satisfaction, and don't let members of the church dictate the questions or the answers.

If in the end, you decided for the church, more power to you.  But I think you'll find, as all of us here have, that once you get past the initial confusion and turmoil, the world outside Mormonism just makes a lot more sense than it ever did inside.

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"Mmmmm... sacrilicious..." -- Homer Simpson

rittermonster06
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Registered:11/16/2005
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 12:57 AM)

A,

What are the biggest questions/issues you have right now about the Church?  The things that are weighing most on your mind...

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fled utah
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 7:38 PM)

Just remember, if you feel guilty about questioning the morg and what not, it is not your fault. Everyone of us, I'm sure, who has left the religion has felt guilty. That feeling comes from years of being told that the church is true and all that nonsense, plus the worry of what the family would think. I would say pray about the questions you have, but there is no god, so it is pointless.
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ajsobrio
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Registered:11/15/2005
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 7:39 PM)

Reply to : rittermonster06


A,Whatare the biggest questions/issues you have right now about the Church? The things thatare weighing most on your mind...

I'd have to say the things that annoy me the most are the church's ideas about polygamy, priesthood and blacks and homosexuality. I've tried to find reasons that polygamy could be a good thing, but the arguments against are better and more compelling than the arguments for. I'm totally confused about the fact that blacks didnt get the prieshood until the late 1970's and finally, I know many homosexual people who I can say with almost absolute certainly would not be happy as a heterosexual Mormon. If they were heterosexual, they still wouldnt be happy as a Mormon. So, I think to myself, why would this be the "one way" when many people cannot fit into it and would not be happy living it? I guess thats the underlying thread with all of it...only SOME women and men would be happy being polygamists, only SOME races can actually exercise priesthood powers and only SOME would be happy being a part of the Mormon social construct. So it just comes down to the "one and true way" being built so as to purposely eliminate some from the blessings and exaltation its supposed to bring.

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ajsobrio
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 7:40 PM)

Reply to : fled utah

Wow fled,

that was the best motivational speech you could muster? Help me out here!

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fled utah
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 7:45 PM)

I've tried to find reasons that polygamy could be a good thing, but the arguments against are better and more compelling than the arguments for.

Because the profit Joseph Smith said it was good. how dare you question the profit.

I'm totally confused about the fact that blacks didnt get the prieshood until the late 1970's

Because Bring'em Young was a racist. Pure and simple

and finally, I know many homosexual people who I can say with almost absolute certainly would not be happy as a heterosexual Mormon. If they were heterosexual, they still wouldnt be happy as a Mormon. So, I think to myself, why would this be the "one way" when many people cannot fit into it and would not be happy living it?

Because the profit has spoken. In reality, the mormon church does not make much sense on anything. All it requires is blind adherence and a refusal to listen to any doubter.

As for my motivational speech abilities, they are lacking. I'm pretty much jaded by a religion that has lied to me and gave me a guilt complex from about the age of 12 when I decided I didn't believe any of the bullshit anymore. Life would be so much simpler if I wasn't raised mormon.
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ajsobrio
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 7:49 PM)

Reply to : fled utah
wow, 12 years old? You must have been a smart little kid to question something that was so totally part of your life and your world. How do you even begin to confront the reality that it might not be true at 12 years of age? I would have never had the mental capacity to do so. I feel like even now, I dont have the mental capacity, nor emotional strength, to do so.
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fled utah
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(Date Posted:11/19/2005 7:56 PM)

It all started when they gave me the priesthood and I went to the temple for baptisms for the dead. They always said I would feel a change when I got the priesthood. I never did. I actually felt myself unworthy for the priesthood since I never felt anything. As for going to the temple. They always talk about how it is the ultimate spiritual experience. It wasn't. I felt even worse because I wasn't thinking pure thoughts when some of the young women came out of the baptisimal font. Later that year, I was tripping on shrooms and thought I had seen god. I realized then that religion was a joke.

Plus it didn't help that I never like the stupid rules they forced us to live with in the church, from white shirts to you have to go to class, etc. In my later years I also began to realize that there was no god, based solely on the presence of too much, "evil" in the world. If god really existed, why would he make millions of children starve to death a year? Why would he allow meglomaniacs to become bloody tyrannts and commit genocide? Nothing for me added up.
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