liseysmom
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:04 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Now that Im even thinking about not being gung hoe Mormon, I get anxious wondering, "what the hell am I doing?" The Mormon church, was at one time, more real and true to me than the sun in the sky, so I wonder how I got to this point of disbelief. Im willing to bet that many of you are on the verge of a panic attack just thinking its not true.
I know I was a basket case for about two months after I suddenly realized it wasn't true. Couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, cried all the time. It was very traumatic. It does go away. It just takes time to deconstruct the old world view and replace it with a new one.
Welcome to the Foyer! I think it is very useful during the process - it helps to know you aren't alone and aren't crazy.
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Youth is like spring, an over-praised season more remarkable
for biting winds than genial breezes. Autumn is the mellower
season, and what we lose in flowers we more than gain in fruits.
- Samuel Butler
Every Wrong Move
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KingFolly
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Registered:10/26/2004
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:07 PM)
Amber, I think most of us can relate to the near panic attack that ensues when one first realizes that the Mormon church is not what we thought it was. I came to the realization at age 35 after having been a faithful member all my life (including Eagle scout, mission, marriage in temple, 3 kids, etc). It was a very difficult several months.
However, once I was able to think things through and realized that--in fact--the abundant evidence out there overwhelmingly points to the church not being what it claims, I saw that there was no need to be guilty. I was not turning away from the true church due to sin or laziness or desire to be bad. I was simply turning away from a flawed, imperfect, human-conceived and human-run non-profit (and non-prophet!) corporation. There's nothing to feel guilty about.
--Steve
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LDA Janis
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Registered:10/08/2001
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:07 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Hey Amber. Welcome to the Foyer
Start here and read as much as you can. My son was upset that he carried guilt for so long about the church until he studied the guilt right away by studying the controversies and issues. He was 24 when he found the mormon web ring.
http://www.2think.org/hii/lds.shtml#top
http://www.lds-mormon.com
When your done you'll probably feel anger.
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Latter-Day-Ain"t
Religions are different roads converging upon the same point. What doest it matter that we take different road as long as we reach the same goal. Mohatma Gandhi.
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ajsobrio
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Registered:11/15/2005
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:10 PM)
Reply to : liseysmom
How do you ever realize that its not true? I mean, there are many discrepancies and flaws, but members and mormon scholars have a way of finding a rationalization. They have a way of telling you that you're "hard-hearted" or dont have enough faith. Every time something points to the church not being true, someone comes up with a rebuttle to prove that it is...so how can you ever reach a reliable conclusion?
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Epstein
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Registered:01/19/2005
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:16 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
How do you not wonder whether you're right or wrong?
I am way more certain the church is not true than I ever was that the church was true. (Did that make sense?) I'm literally betting my eternal salvation that the church is a fraud, and it doesn't stress me a bit.
Just off the top of my head, for people who think the church isn't true, but haven't seen a lot of the evidence, I recommend Mike Norton's site, josephlied.com
I also recommend Deconstructor's excellent site:
http://www.i4m.com/think/
Oh, and welcome to the Foyer.
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"You can blow out a candle, but you can’t blow out a fire." - Peter Gabriel
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Epstein
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Registered:01/19/2005
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:21 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
I mean, there are many discrepancies and flaws, but members and mormon scholars have a way of finding a rationalization.
This is true when taken item by item. But they cannot explain away the whole pattern of deception in the beginning and the continued deception by the church (i.e., painting shown at General Conference of JS translating and Oliver Cowdery transcribing in full view of the plates).
Trust me. The more you learn, the better you'll feel. And then you will be ecstatic that you got out began your family on a foundation of the church. Congratulations.
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"You can blow out a candle, but you can’t blow out a fire." - Peter Gabriel
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ajsobrio
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Registered:11/15/2005
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:24 PM)
Everyone, first of all, thank you for your replies. Secondly, isnt it a little scary to bet your eternal salvation on what the Mormon church has called "the arm of flesh?" What about the moments that you've been sitting in the temple or sacrament meeting and you really genuinely and truly felt it was true. What about all the happy moments? How do you all think of those and what of the sensations you feel when you've been in church or the temple...how do you ignore those completely? Also, how did Joseph Smith, a young man write a book that is actually pretty good? True, all this weird D&C and Journal of Discourses peripheral stuff is somewhat weird, but the BOM by itself, is a pretty good piece of literature. How did the church develop into what it is and why does God continue to let it control peoples lives if it isnt true? Didnt God say in the BOM that if a leader were to start leading the church astray, He would kill the leader? "It is better that one man perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief?" Why would God allow this to continue if it were false?
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KingFolly
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Registered:10/26/2004
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:27 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Every time something points to the church not being true, someone comes up with a rebuttle to prove that it is...so how can you ever reach a reliable conclusion?
First of all, nobody EVER comes up with a rebuttle to prove that it's TRUE. All they can do is attempt to discount the preponderance of evidence that proves it false.
Even though I've reached the conclusion it's false, I'm the first one to say that you need to come to that realization FOR YOURSELF. Ask yourself this... If it's not true, HOW WOULD I KNOW? If you can't come up with ANY way you would know it's not true then that should be a HUGE RED FLAG.
--Steve
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Hellmut
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Registered:12/04/2004
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:28 PM)
Hi Amber,
I envy you that you are questioning your relationship with the LDS Church relatively early in your life. When I was twenty one, I had just returned from my mission and was drafted into the German army. My mission emaciated my testimony and left me disoriented and distraught. The problem is that I could not make sense of that experience because I continued to believe that I had a testimony.
Here is a key insight: Jesus Christ provided a clear standard to determine a false prophet. He said that we would recognize false prophets by their fruits (Matthew 7). All that talk about prayer and feelings is something that Joseph Smith made up.
If you read Alma 32, D&C 9, and Moroni 10 closely you will be able to see that the Mormon idea of inspiration is merely a technique for autosuggestion.
The good thing about fruits is that they are observable. Our feelings are merely something within us. They are not a message from God.
Look at the evidence. Give yourself the Jehovah's Witness test. If the Jehovah's Witnesses explained made the same claims that Mormons advance, would you believe it. If the answer is no then its probably not true.
Cheers, Hellmut
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Check out my blog: Beyond Ourselves
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KingM
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Registered:07/31/2001
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:35 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Well, there's no way to really be certain, is there? We can only play odds, but even if an angel came and told us the church was or wasn't true, we'd still have to believe that we weren't insane, or that the angel wasn't lying, etc.
And where does it stop? Maybe you should be an evangelical. After all, if you fail Mormonism, you'll just go to one of the lower kingdoms. If you don't become Born Again, you'll roast in hell for all eternity. Or maybe the Buddhists are right, or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Moslems. Do I have to prove each and every one of these other faiths? No, then why should I be forced to follow Mormonism when it also doesn't make any sense? Just because it's the religion of my birth? And really, hasn't God made it so difficult to figure out that it would be punitive and wrong for him to punish us for simply believing the wrong thing about His nature?
In the end, it comes down to this. There is only one life that I know I have, and that's this one. I don't want to waste it and that means an occasionally painful look at what I really believe and why.
For the intellectually inclined, let me recommend the stuff on zarahemlalimits.com, including Michael White's excellent essay, Why I No Longer Believe.
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KingFolly
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:35 PM)
In response to some of your questions...
- By choosing Mormonism, you're consciously deciding that ALL THE OTHER churches are false. What will happen to you in heaven if you're wrong? According to the Pentecostals, your decision to stay Mormon will ensure your eternal damnation. So, in essence, your risk of STAYING Mormon is just as high as leaving. It just depends on who you believe.
- If there is a God then He's letting literally THOUSANDS of churchs control people's lives and they can't all be true. In fact, if the Mormon church is true then God must be letting ALL OF THE OTHER churches control people's lives in error. Why would God do that? Doesn't it makes much more sense that NONE of them are true or that God doesn't really care which one you attend?
- If God would remove a leader who led a church astray, how do you explain the Pope? Or the Dali Lama? Or any number of religious leaders who have arguably contributed MUCH MORE to our society than Gordon Hinckley.
- The world is full of "pretty good" pieces of literature and art and frankly I cannot fathom how a human would create them. When I look at the statues of Bernini, the symphonies of Beethoven, the art of Monet, the plays of Shakespeare, etc I cannot see how they could POSSIBLY do it. And yet that doesn't make any of their works "true". Not being able to explain how Joseph Smith wrote the BofM is not in any way proof that it's true. Also, the BofM is replete with hundreds of historical problems, anachronisms, inconsistencies, and plagaries from the King James version of the Bible. It's has some nice ideas and some horrible ideas (that the lamanites were turned Black, that Nephi killed the unconscious Laban because God told him to, etc)
--Steve
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KingM
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:37 PM)
Oh yeah, don't forget to take it slow. You don't have to make a decision on this today or next week. The Church has insinuated itself into your life from the day you were blessed and the first unreasonable expectations were heaped upon your head. It might take a little while to feel at peace with all of this.
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The Head of Laban
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Registered:06/19/2005
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:40 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Reply to : liseysmomHow do you ever realize that its not true? I mean, there are many discrepancies and flaws, but members and mormon scholars have a way of finding a rationalization. They have a way of telling you that you're "hard-hearted" or dont have enough faith. Every time something points to the church not being true, someone comes up with a rebuttle to prove that it is...so how can you ever reach a reliable conclusion?
It is very difficult to "prove" the church is untrue because the church scholars are very good at providing a thread of possibility to cling to. One thing that really helped me was to read about the strange beliefs of other churches and apply the same critical thinking that allows me to dismiss those churches to mormonism. Ask yourself why you don't have faith that David Koresh was a prophet. Why don't you have faith that Muhammed was a prophet and the Koran is the word of God? Mormonism all comes down to taking Joseph Smith's word for it.
Two book pushed me over the edge: "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan and "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan did more to convince me the church was false than any other book, video, pamphlet, sermon, etc., and neither book mentions mormonism. "Demon Haunted World" teaches critical thinking skills to allow us to survive in a world of scam artists, spin doctors, and shysters. It is our critical thinking skills that allow us not to follow David Koresh to a fiery death. Somewhere along the way, the Branch Davidians turned off their critical thinking skills and cranked up their faith in Koresh.
"Combatting Cult Mind Control" is about one man's journey into and out of the Moonies. His description of the Moonies recruitment tactics, and member retention efforts, as well as the demonization of ex-moonies were strikingly similar to mormonism. I highlighted every passage that resembled mormonism and when I finished, there was a lot of yellow in that book.
The bottom line is, when you examine mormonism using their rules: Pray about it, read FARMS, wait for a peaceful feeling, that feeling is proof the church is true, etc. you will find reason to believe the church might be true. If you examine mormonism using old-fashioned critical thinking skills, you will discover that the probability of the mormon church being the one true church is about as likely as the Moonies, the Branch Davidians, the Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other church being true.
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"Perhaps, one night you will have a dream. In the course of it the release valve that controls the little factory will open and release all that is excess." - Boyd K. Packer
"When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell "STOP". - Mark E. Peterson
"Darkies are wonderful people." - Joseph Fielding Smith
"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Heber C. Kimball
"I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac" - Mark E Peterson
"Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen." -The Lord, Abraham 3:16
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Merry Miss
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Registered:08/12/2004
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:50 PM)
Here's the thing about trusting in the arm of the flesh--you have to do it eventually. When you believed completely you were trusting Hugh Nibley and the GAs and whoever has been a good example of mormonism to you. You use your intellect and your emotions to decide that you're going to trust these guys. Later, now, when you find evidence that those guys aren't as credible as you thought they were you're still using your intellect and emotions to decide to trust the new evidence. See what I mean? The whole argument about the evils of intellectualism can really mess you up. I remember when I was going through my panic phase (lasted about 6 months, now I'm much better) I talked to a friend about intellectualism because I was afraid that I was being intellectually proud and thinking I was smarter than God...all that stuff. She said, of course it's prideful to weigh the evidence and make your own decision, but either way that's what you're doing. That's why you have a brain--to figure things out.
Consider this: would God make the only means of salvation a religion that is so ludicrous that very few people ever find it and those who study it sincerely find that it is filled with untruths and questionable ethics?
Also, when you listen to arguments for why the church must be true, be sure to ask yourself how you'd react to the arguments if they were coming from any other faith. You could be overthinking your way out of Islam, JW-ism, or whateverelse-ism and hear the same comments: there are good people of those faiths, they have some inspiring books, the people are flawed but the religion isn't, you're being too intellectual, etc.
And I think you'll come to find after you've had a chance to read more actually good literature that the BOM is not a great peice of literature. The characters are one-dimensional, the "prose" is repetitive and boring, and nothing in it has any relation to actual life in pre-colombian america. The inspirational parts of it are ripped off from the Bible. Ever wonder why the conversion of Alma the younger is so similar to the conversion of Paul/Saul in Acts?
Good luck to you. I promise it gets better and better. Take things at your own pace though. I can honestly say that my family is way better off for not attending the mormon church. We're more relaxed. We have more time for each other. We enjoy life. There will come a time for you when you'll feel so free. All your life has been planned for you more or less, but now anything is possible. There are so many more choices and you're at the helm of your own ship, not some organization that has been threatening you with damnation or promising you salvation and peace after you die in exchange for obedience.
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Molly Malone
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:51 PM)
I'm so jealous that you're finding your way out relatively early!
You will go through a panicky scared stage. It's natural-it's what you've been raised with your whole life. Definitely go to Deconstructor's site-very helpful. The kicker for me was reading "An Insider's View to Mormon's Origins". That spelled out exactly how it was not only possible but completely probable that JS made it all up. From there I was more open to finding out other inconsistencies in the church.
Then you will probably go through an angry phase. Feel free to vent away here. I certainly did when I first joined, and was only welcomed and counseled (that SO sounds like a Mormon phrase).
Hopefully it won't be long before you can laugh. It takes much longer for some than others depending on how deep you were, how much it affected your life choices, and how deceived you feel.
Stick around here. Ask any questions you have.
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I"m finally current on my blog! Making my Own Heaven
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Hellmut
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Registered:12/04/2004
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:55 PM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Also, how did Joseph Smith, a young man write a book that is actually pretty good?
Grant Palmer answers this question best.. He was a seminary and institute teacher for over thirty years. Reviewing the historical research on Mormonism, his book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins traces the text of the Book of Mormon to a variety of nineteenth century texts. Lehi's Dream, for example, is a dream that Joseph Smith, Senior had when Junior was a little child. Another gem is that Joe copied all the translation mistakes of the King James Bible into the Book of Mormon in second and third Nephi.
Secondly, isnt it a little scary to bet your eternal salvation on what the Mormon church has called "the arm of flesh?" What about the moments that you've been sitting in the temple or sacrament meeting and you really genuinely and truly felt it was true.
Who is relying on the arm of flesh more? Those who look at the evidence, which exists outside of themselves or those who think that their feelings in their chest tell the truth?
Jesus told us to look at the evidence. He said you shall know the false prophets by their fruits. Look at the fruits of Joseph Smith with an open mind and you will figure it out.
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Check out my blog: Beyond Ourselves
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-Domokun-
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Registered:08/16/2005
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(Date Posted:11/15/2005 11:59 PM)
Reply to : Epstein
This is true when taken item by item. But they cannot explain away the whole pattern of deception in the beginning and the continued deception by the church (i.e., painting shown at General Conference of JS translating and Oliver Cowdery transcribing in full view of the plates).Trust me. The more you learn, the better you'll feel. And then you will be ecstatic that you got out began your family on a foundation of the church. Congratulations.
This is generally what caused my awakening. Whenever I ran into conflicting evidendce, or couldn't get some doctrinal points to add up in my head, I "put it on the shelf", or decided that I could deal with it later, when I had more evidence or could see it with more experience. One day I tried to put one more thing on that shelf and the shelf broke from the weight. The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was the church spending a billion dollars to renovate a mall. My gut feeling was that the church shouldn't be in the mall development business. As I tried to rationalize the church's actions away, I began to "prove" to myself that I could trust GBH as a propohet, even if I didn't agree. I even found some great strength from Hugh B. Brown's biography. But that just opened up even more questions about prophets, and how to know if what they are saying and doing is from God. I began to reevaluate my base assumptions. I found I based much of my testimony on faulty, unproven, or unprovable assumptions. As I started to work through the logical conclusions, I started to remember all of those things "on the shelf" and looked at them with my newer core assumptions about what God is, how He would act towards His children, etc. My issues with the church all came crashing down when examined from a skeptical point of view.
The mormon answer is that I lost faith, and if I could just get some faith back, everything would be OK again. Well, real faith requires that the unproven things you believe actually turn out to be true. I couldn't have true faith in something where I knew that parts of it, especially some of the foundational "truths" that everything else was based on, were demonstratably untrue.
What have I replaced my void of beliefs with? I don't know. I'm still trying to figure it out. The comforting part is that I think that's one of the purposes of life, to figure it all out for yourself. By yourself, for yourself. I am now very wary of anyone who has pat answers to questions that have plauged humankind for millenia. If thousands of years of the best conventional human wisdom can't answer some of the basic questions of human existence, what makes you think a farm boy from rural New York can? Because he saw God? Did he really? I think a very critical examination of Joseph Smith, the first vision (all 9 or 13 or whatever accounts of it), the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, all of the D&C, and everything Joseph said or did is crucial to finding out for yourself, since everything really does rest on the truthfullness, or not, of what Joseph Smith said.
I still go to church, because my wife and family believe. I was really bitter about it for a few weeks, but just recently I am starting to come to terms with it. There still are some good people in the church. If you can accept that it is a man-made institution, and be OK with that, you can see that today's church is not 100% evil. You don't have to believe all of the historical claims, though. Get out of the all-or-nothing mindset that the church promotes. Decide for yourself what you believe and why. It's nobody else's business to tell you how to relate to God or your fellow humans. It's probably smart to obey the local laws, but aside from that, your life is yours. Take back your will from the church and live life as you see fit.
You also might really benefit from NOM, or New Order Mormons. There is a link at the top of the page. The Foyer can be a little rowdier than NOM, so NOM is a good place to start among very sympathetic and thoughtful people.
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Merry Miss
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Registered:08/12/2004
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:06 AM)
Oh yeah, those times that I really felt like I was having a spiritual experience--it is sad to have to look at them objectively. There is a lot of emotional manipulation that goes on at church, BYU, girls camp. There are a few that I hold on to, like when I realised that dh was the one I was supposed to marry, but I can honestly say that none of them were specifically about Joseph being a prophet.
I talked to some of my friends of other faiths about their spiritual experiences. Know what? They are every bit as powerful to them as mine were to me. If the Catholic church only has "part of the truth" as the mormon church claims, then God isn't doing a very good job of letting catholics know. People have experiences all the time that are extremely vivid to them that lead them to believe all sorts of things, just like you have about mormonism. Just think about all those people who are so sure that they've been visited by the virgin Mary, etc. They're willing to bet everything on it. Is God just messing with them or what? Is he deliberately sending them visions that will confuse them? Or is the human mind much more powerful than we may have thought?
I second whoever suggested Demon Haunted World. Another book I loved that I read just prior to questioning the church was "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel.
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The Head of Laban
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:07 AM)
Reply to : -Domokun-
Well, real faith requires that the unproven things you believe actually turn out to be true.
Great point, Domokun. Just think of all those doctrines that the early mormons had faith in: Polygamy, blacks are cursed and will never receive the priesthood, all Native Americans are literal descendants of Lehi, God was once a man.
Previous generations of mormons had faith that these things were true. It turns out, by the church's own admission, that these things are not true. What does that tell us about having faith that the mormon church is true?
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"Perhaps, one night you will have a dream. In the course of it the release valve that controls the little factory will open and release all that is excess." - Boyd K. Packer
"When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell "STOP". - Mark E. Peterson
"Darkies are wonderful people." - Joseph Fielding Smith
"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Heber C. Kimball
"I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac" - Mark E Peterson
"Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen." -The Lord, Abraham 3:16
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I am Laura
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Registered:08/29/2005
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:09 AM)
Amber,
I'm so glad to see you here. These people are intelligent and express themselves better than any other group I've seen. They won't condem you for asking questions and they're great at answering even the smallest, and seemingly silliest questions. Plus they're a lot of fun.
Laura
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butternutcheeselog
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:18 AM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Hello,My name is Amber and I am 21 year old psychology senior studying at UNR. I have been raised Mormon all my life and have never really questioned it...until now. I have been dating the most wonderful non-member who tried, and continues to try, as hard as he can to understand Mormonism and make it right in his heart. He has, in the process, encountered many discrepancies and problems within the church. I agree with many of his observations, but have always ignored those ideas brushing them off saying, "Though I dont understand it, I know its true." That way of believing just isnt working anymore. Now that Im even thinking about not being gung hoe Mormon, I get anxious wondering, "what the hell am I doing?" The Mormon church, was at one time, more real and true to me than the sun in the sky, so I wonder how I got to this point of disbelief. How do you, who ar
Hello Amber, nice to have you stop in. Check out these websites. Have a brown paper bag handy to breath into.
http://www3.telus.net/public/rcmccue/bob/spirituality.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~zarahemla/index.html
http://www.lds-mormon.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~zarahemla/ctr/index.htm
http://mormonscripturestudies.com/
http://www.affirmation.org/learning/prelude.asp
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org
http://www.i4m.com/think/Intro/
http://trialsofascension.net/mormon.html
Take it slow...
-BNCL-
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"Even a thought, even a possibility, can shatter us and transform us."
Friedrich Nietzsche
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ajsobrio
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Registered:11/15/2005
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:34 AM)
Reply to : -Domokun-
Domokun,
You said that you think one of the main purposes of life is to figure it out for ourselves, by ourselves. But I can say with total surety that I am a complete idiot sometimes. Not to mention the fact that if we could do it ourselves, why did we need a savior? Not to mention the fact that sometimes we, in our infancy mortal stage, may not know whats best for ourselves and are putting too much faith in our own immediate and temporally proximate experiences and knowledge. Do you feel that its a little audacious to assume we can do this alone? And lastly, if we can do it alone, by ourselves, why does there even need to be a God?
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sunshineinmysoul
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:39 AM)
Amber,
So much great advice so far. I just want to echo everyone's observations about the panic and anxiety that is a normal part of overcoming indoctrination. Remember that you have heard countless lessons about why people leave the church. You have heard lessons about how the Spirit leaves when you read something negative about the church.
The reality is: all of those things are classic cult characteristics. And I never was willing to acknowledge that until I had gotten on the other side of the Mormon mind job.
My advice: keep reading, keep posting. Ask us questions because I gurarantee all of us have gone through the terrifying reality that our worldview is just some man's idea of how the world works. But whatever you do, DON'T BELIEVE US. Find it out for yourself. READ READ READ. Insider's View as mentioned above is a great place to start. "In Sacred Loneliness" and "Emma Smith, Mormon Enigma" are both excellent and well documented.
Don't worry if yuou continue to have gnawing doubts about some of those spiritual experiences you had. They were real. But just because you felt spiritual doesn't mean that JS was a prophet yada yada.
Glad to meet you!
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What other people think about me is none of my business.
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beijing
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:43 AM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Secondly, isnt it a little scary to bet your eternal salvation on what the Mormon church has called "the arm of flesh?"
It's a little scary to bet your eternal salvation on ANYTHING. Eternity is huge and scary in itself. And that's what the church is banking on; most people get scared thinking about stepping too far out of line, for fear of "eternal consequences."
If you think about it, though, even the methods of knowing things that the church recommends also come down to a heck of a lot of "the arm of flesh"--reading the Book of Mormon which was (supposedly) written by one guy's arm, abridged by another guy's arm, translated by another guy's arm, edited heavily for grammar and lightly for content by some other guys' arms, inspired in the process but with a lot of imperfections (all the LDS apologists and BOM itself admit this), then studying and pondering the Book of Mormon with your puny mortal mind, then praying about it on the assumption that your puny mortal mind is going to accurately tell the difference between its own feelings and the feelings that come from the Spirit.
Is THAT such a reliable process that there's no need to be scared betting your eternal salvation on the results, which amount to little more than a warm fuzzy moment...if that? Heck, I'd be scared.
But even if you do like that method, why not apply the same test to the websites that have been recommended so far in this thread. Read them, study them, ponder them, pray and ask if the information they contain is true. What, if anything, makes you nervous about using that method in this scenario or makes you think you might get inaccurate results?
What about the moments that you've been sitting in the temple or sacrament meeting and you really genuinely and truly felt it was true. What about all the happy moments? How do you all think of those and what of the sensations you feel when you've been in church or the temple...how do you ignore those completely?
You don't have to ignore those feelings completely. I think of the church like high school. I had plenty of happy moments in high school, and I can still reminisce about them and enjoy those memories even though I have graduated and am never going back. There are a few people from high school I'm still friends with, but most of us have gone our separate ways and probably weren't that close to begin with, so it's no big deal.
There were certainly moments in high school physics when we'd learn about Newton's laws, and I would think, "This is so cool! I feel like I'm understanding how the universe works!" (kind of like church on a good day). But then when I got to college and we started learning just the tip of the iceberg of quantum physics in my Physics 101 class, it was really scary and confusing, and I wanted to run back to my Newtonian world where I could understand every action having an equal and opposite reaction, and I could actually solve the equations most of the time!
But I can say with total surety that I am a complete idiot sometimes.
But the prophet is never a complete idiot (aka speaking as a man)? The scriptures never say anything completely idiotic? You never follow what you think is "the Spirit" only to find you've been a complete idiot then, too?
Not to mention the fact that if we could do it ourselves, why did we need a savior?
Do we?
Not to mention the fact that sometimes we, in our infancy mortal stage, may not know whats best for ourselves
Who knows better than we do? And how do we know to trust them...don't we at least have to trust ourselves enough to make the decision about which dictator we're going to blindly follow?
and are putting too much faith in our own immediate and temporally proximate experiences and knowledge.
So we should put more trust in our experiences that we can't remember...such as the pre-existence? Experiences and knowledge that we have to rely on someone else to inform us about should be a lot more reliable than experiences and knowledge that we can actually remember ourselves. Not.
Do you feel that its a little audacious to assume we can do this alone?
Do you feel it's a little lazy to assume that someone is going to do any portion of it for you?
And lastly, if we can do it alone, by ourselves, why does there even need to be a God?
Does there?
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Such was the power of the handbag of glory that ladies wept when they saw it, and all those who touched it went straight to heaven.
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Froggie
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:43 AM)
Welcome ajsobrio! I am not at all surprised to see you here based on your self-description. You are a young, female intellectual studying a field that is going to require you to be very open-minded.
It sounds like some lights have already gone on, some intellectual, some mental, some emotional. All good news for you. I was in your spot once (young, female intellectual studying psychology), and this is how my doubts fell out of the bag. I studied a lot of philosophy, and rather than try to jump cognitive hoops through miles of facts/hearsay/truths/nontruths, I simply decided I needed to figure out what truth was. A personal truth? A universal truth? A mix of the two? What types of perspectives and truths motivate people, help them find fulfillment and/or happiness ? Your field is a perfect place for you to ask these questions.
I decided existential thought was the best answer, as it validated rather than judged. The petty little inconsistencies and inaccuracies of mormonism were irrelevant once I encountered them, which was virtually years after I had decided the only personally honest approach towards the concept of God was an agnostic one - or one that I as an existential being had created from my mind.
People will believe all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Removing the religious wrong/right from the previous statement is so freeing. And it is always a fun exercise to listen to people and their beliefs and ask them questions about why they believe it. It really does explain the core of who they are.
I can tell you all of these things years after the fact. And it still is not easy dealing with the cultural aspects of mormonism as my family is generations into the church, and my close family members are heavily enamored with the doctrine and lifestyle. There is a certain peace, however, that comes from taking that baby integrity step and acknowledging that people change, and its ok to change the belief to maintain consistency.
Best of luck. I am sure you will be fine. You are at a crux time for a mormon female girl, make sure to listen to your inner workings rather than any external cultural pressure telling you you must get married, stay home and have babies before the age of 23 or your fruit will fall right off the tree.
Big green hugs,
Froggie
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"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Douglas Adams
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ghost of capt jack
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Registered:06/17/2004
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:45 AM)
Amber:
I understand your feelings completely. I was never really what you'd call a TBM, and had broken some very serious commandments while still a member in good standing. But I remember the day in early 2001 when I finally put it all together and came to the conclusion it wasn't true; that none of what I'd been taught and had taught others was real. I was cross country skiing, and started crying, and didn't stop until the tears had frozen to my face.
As for your questions regarding the existence of God and the need for a Savior, I came to the conclusion that none of that is necessary either about the same time, or maybe even a little earlier, that I decided the LDS organization's claims weren't true.
Whatever you decide and wherever you end up, welcome to our little corner of cyberspace.
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ajsobrio
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Registered:11/15/2005
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 12:56 AM)
Reply to : Froggie
Thank you all again. I can hardly keep up! So much to think about!  So heres something thats really bothering me...my patriarchal blessing. Im thinking that maybe this is just a test and if I can get through it then all those wonderful things promised in my blessing will come true. I have such a hard time believing that I might be letting go of all these amazing blessings. Also, what about families? How do you help them to understand your conclusions? How do you get yourself to understand your conclusions? Additionally, does anyone still believe in God or Jesus? I think I wouldnt be able to live with myself if I let those beliefs go..but I wonder what the freak is true anymore.
Im having a really hard time understanding why God would allow this to happen. Women gave up their lives and dreams to be one of JS's wives, Ive changed aspects of my life even down to how I will (eventually) express love physically and what I drink and eat. How many ear piercings I have for crying out loud! Every aspect of my life has been altered due to the church...why would God let this happen? Is it because there are "true" aspects of the church, so he figures its not bad for us to be involved? Sometimes I think maybe he doesnt care, but too much has happened and I believe he loves me too much to not care...how do you all reconcile these questions?
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Hellmut
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Registered:12/04/2004
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 1:05 AM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Women gave up their lives and dreams to be one of JS's wives
And some lost their reputation when they turned Joseph down and he would malign them publicly. Others were told that Joseph would be killed by an angel if they did not marry him.
You might want to read In Sacred Loneliness, a collection of biographies of Joseph's wives. The author Todd Compton is still a Mormon.
why would God let this happen?
Why would God keep the truth from four billion people?
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Check out my blog: Beyond Ourselves
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ajsobrio
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Registered:11/15/2005
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 1:17 AM)
Reply to : Hellmut
Right. JS did some uncool things. thats for sure. But what about Abraham who almost killed his son Isaac? What about the men in the old testament with multiple wives and harems? Why would God ask anyone to do such weird and seemingly harmful things?
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Scoutmaster
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Registered:05/03/2005
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(Date Posted:11/16/2005 1:18 AM)
Reply to : ajsobrio
Welcome to the Foyer.
Everyone here will be as helpful as possible but you will feel pain, guilt, and disillusion as you read the historical source material behind what TSCC claims as truth. There is no other way around it. By proclaiming exclusive divine authority and absolute truth the Mormon Church has placed all believers at the edge of a great precipice. Be ever so glad you are discovering this now before you have your spouse, children, family dog, home in the burbs, and two cars in the driveway sitting on the edge of the precipice with you.
There are many in the Ex-Mormon community who have been rejected by spouses, family, and friends for simply following the dictates of their intellect and conscious. There are very few of us who wanted the church to be false. All of our lives would have been much simpler if TSCC were exactly what it claims to be. Unfortunately, you will find that belief is very difficult to self-impose upon the intellect once you have awakened to the fact that TSCC is not true. Some people find a way to either force belief, feign belief, or hide disbelief for different reasons. You might find yourself in one of these other camps for awhile or indefinitely while you sort things out.
But definitely read the recommended books. And stop by the Foyer occasionally to let us know how you are doing.
ptf
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"I left the woods for as a good a reason as I went there." Thoreau
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