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Forum for ex-members of Revival Churches
Title: Revival in Florida
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(Date Posted:05/05/2008 1:19 PM)
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http://www.freshfire.ca/

Anybody watching the revival in Florida? have a look on God.tv it´s amazing what GOD is doing it must have been like that during the time in at azuza street. Can God use Todd he can use anybody...



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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:07/05/2008 5:22 PM)




......God used a donkey to get his point through - did this poor donkey ever get anything in exchange for doing God's work and therfore having had the shit beaten out of him??? I don't think so......narzistic beings don't give a shit about anybody else and use whatever comes in their way to obtain admiration......God is no different!

Maybe (who knows...) Anthony Scott Williams might be the true image of God on Earth........can you tell for certain ??? Read Fox's Book of Martyrs and learn about God's real mentality! And then feel free to be disgusted!
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 1:46 AM)

Hi guest,

just keep in mind, that God didn't beat the donkey. God also never beat or killed martyrs: as you can read in Fox's Book of Martyrs - humans did that.

Greetings,
Angelika
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 2:12 AM)

God's inaction sbviously makes him guilty in that case.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 8:52 AM)

It would be great to live in paradise and it would be fantastic not to see any evil. Unfortunately we live in a fallen world. Everybody  knows bad things, did bad things and suffered from bad things. The bible doesn't promise that nothing bad will happen to us, but God promised, that the evil behind these bad things will not be able to touch us.
God did not crate us as computers with a software that only enables us to love one another. God gave us a free will and  decided not to take this free will away. Sadly we obviously to misuse our free will to hurt others and even feel great about that.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 5:22 PM)




.....Quote Old Testament: "He who knows how to do good and does it not; it is counted to him as sin!"


Who knows more and has more power to do good than God? - How little does the bastard do? FUCK ALL !
This makes this incompetend whimp the chief of all sinners! - Serve a narzistic liar - a loveless non-caring swine = serve God!

If CAI has done anything for us (that is the ones having still a cell or 2 working in the upper chamber) than it is the fact that we had the chance to "see" God as he really is and we can turn our back on him and enjoy what is left of our lives.....let me ask you: "Where was this swine of a god when his children got abused sexually, financially and psycologically for over 25 years!!!?"  ....leading us into the truth  .....lol  lol   lol

Cursed be every second I gave to this freak!

Consider the Greeks and their vast knowledge - they KNEW: we are created for the god's entertainment - the fuckers live forever and got bored....emotional vampire = God

Jesus himself only managed to live for 33 years in his shit of a creation and then pissed off......has this "loving father" ever asked any of us if we desire to live in his pathetic creation???

I'm FREE to reject a God - who should fall on his knees and beg each and every one of us humans for forgiveness for his selfish attitude, evil deeds, false promises and short comings - to serve Him = to look down to your master! Thanks,,,,but NO! thanks!

Don't give me any shitty testimonials etc - the truth is for any idiot like Hudson Tayler - 1000 others were forsaken dumped and died in their shit for the one who didn't care about them - nobody wrote a book about these - it would stir up Christians to "SEE" this side of their god - wasn't it Mr. Lakes family that suffered hunger whilst their father / husband did God's work - Lake's wife starved to death due to God's real love and care - .....

Go and follow Lake's walk and when your wife is starved to death and your kids turn against you and your god then come back and preach the love and care of this so-called "father in heaven"! Till then - shut up!

God bless - to use an vain phrase!
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 5:28 PM)

Hey guest 1,, have had a look at this over the last week or so, find it interesting........

Guest 2, So sorry that you had to go through all you went through wih the likes of s w and cai,
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I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn"t, than live my life as if there isn"t, and find out there is"

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 6:23 PM)

Hi Guest,

I am praying for you - and I understand your pain, having gone many years under Scott's "ministry". But I have not abandonned God at all. Men have let me down, but God has still been faithful.

Just one point - with John Lake's family, I believe that John Lake's wife gave all of her food away to others. She did have enough food for her and the family, but chose to give it away, and through this niave decision she did eventually get sick and die. That had nothing to do with God, it was Mrs Lake's own decision to do so.

Men are evil - and use religion in an evil fashion at times too. But there is a way to escape this evil - I am sure you have heard enough sermons to know what that is.

I am praying for you, and may God heal your wounds and pain.

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:08/05/2008 8:54 PM)

I do understand where Guest is coming from. Whilst Iam not prepared to give God away, I do have my discrepancies with Him. There are a lot of questions christians have no answers for. They come up with things like that God didn't create us as robots, gave us a free will and all that sort of stuff, but what sort of choice is that?? God throws us here on this earth without asking us whether we want to be here, then gives us a book of rules and says "obey ALL of these rules else I will punish you with torment in hell with darkness so black that we cannot fathom its horror, and on top of that it is for all eternity.
If God is All-Knowing, then he knew that most of His human creation is going to end up in hell  AND STILL he went ahead with his plan. How can a loving God live with the knowledge that most of mankind (whom He apparently loves) will end up having to suffer neverending torment that is so horrorfying that there are no words to describe it?

How can He consciencly decide that it was worth sending billions upon billions of souls into eternal damnation just so a few clowns can go to heaven and have fun?
How can a God of such intelligence who had the sense of beauty to create this wonderfull earth create evil and a devil who will deceive most of mankind?
 
Usually christians end up trying to answer such questions with some Bible stories untill they come to the point where they have to admit that they don't really have the answers for the above questions and then all they have left to say is that we have to take it by faith.

the mind.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:09/05/2008 10:32 AM)

Hi there,

It is actually a LOT easier and more simple than you have laid out above. You don't have to follow and obey all those "rules", to get into heaven. You just need to believe on the sacrifice of Jesus was enough.

Faith alone is all it takes. The religion you describe above is what the CAI preaches, but it is not what God has said in the New Testament. God has done all the "work", we just need to accept it by faith.

Hope that helps.

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:09/05/2008 12:57 PM)

Can totally agree with the frustration and the thought about God, Christianity and all the rest of it. Have also come to the conclusion that much (if not all) of what religion has done over the centuries is man-made and evil. Still there are many out there who try, with good intentions, to help others, show hope, love, care.

Why do all branches of this so called Christianity always use the Bible to justify their position? The Bible in itself is a book not easy to understand, but if what Jesus did on this earth is the truth, then it was very simple. He didn't teach his disciples to study certain languages first, he didn't teach them to take a handful of scriptures and build a doctrine about it.... he just simply lived a life and showed pepole around him what God could do, if man was willing to let God be the Nr. 1.

If God intended to save mankind through Jesus Christ - and Christians nowadays teach that you have to read your Bible to find the answers... how then did all the people manage who lived before the Bible was ever written? Did Jesus not die for them? Are they lost?

Either the sacrifice of Jesus is enough.... or it is not.....

Many questions .... but not so many answers.....

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:09/05/2008 2:29 PM)

God had different Covenants at different times. We are in the time of the New Covenant with Jesus.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:09/05/2008 6:59 PM)

Thanks for trying to answer the above questions. My main concern is God's design of it all. To create lucifer knowing that he will fall from grace and the mayhem he will cause and then have to create a hell afterwards to punish him just plain doesn't make sense. Cerainly not when God knew before that this was all going to happen.

Whilst I technically understand the Bible story, I lose it when it comes to the original thought and intention of God to create the things the way he has. God is supposed to be All-knowing, All-powerfull, All-evertything really, why did He not create a world where the people aren't robots, but we still get on. No blood and gore, no redemption needed, noone having to die on the cross, no hell, no devil, just all of us having a ball with God for all eternity?? After all He is God!

Someone wrote above that men are evil and some use religion for evil purposes. Well, God created evil in the first place, then when He created man He created Him weak and susceptible to the evil He created and afterwards we find ourselves in hell for not having overcome evil. HE KNEW that man is going to choose the dark side, that he is going to use religion for evil, fight war after war, murder, steal and do the most horrorfying things the their fellow man, AND STILL He went ahead with creating it all.

Don't you understand, one soul in hell is already too many and we all know that it will be billions upon billions that will end up in that place. To say that this whole plan is much more simple and all we need to do is believe in Jesus is just a christian cop-out and doesn't really answer my questions at all.

For those who do decide to "follow Jesus" He makes it sheer impossible in this world to always keep the faith. The Bible says that "all who will live godly MUST suffer persecution...".  I read "Foxes book of matyres" and to think that it is God's will for those things to happen to His beloved people is something I simply cannot fathom. Tell me, why would God be interrested that christian women have their breast cut off, their babies ripped out of their bellies, people being burned alive???? If it were people that hated God it would make more sense, but these were people that loved Him and tried to do the right thing by God.

Coming to John Lake, the Word says "if you neglet those of your own household you have bacome worse than an infidel and have  DENIED THE FAITH...". That would mean in Bible terms that John Lake's faith and works on Judgement day are all going to be erased for neglecting those of his own household?!? His own children turned against God for this very reason. So even if you love God, serve Him and do uttmost to please Him you still end up in hell for making a few wrong decisions.

Quite frankly, I'm at wits end when it comes to the many why's that the Bible leaves unanswered.

the mind.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:10/05/2008 12:29 AM)

hello the mind.

From all that you have written here it looks like you are just a few steps away from the true answer, that there is no God. It's a frightening step to take, from  "it makes no sense!" and "how could a powerful god cast his creation into hell?" to "oh, that's because man created god to fulfill a need in primitive times to explain death and misery in this life" 

You have concluded correctly, it does not make sense. The whole message of the Bible is completely ludicrous, but it takes a FREE MIND to realise it. Take a visit to the ex-Christian chat room and some other rooms on this site. It may give you some of the answers you are looking for, or some food for thought to help you find your own answers.

Keep searchin.

the free mind. (no my mind has not been bound and overcome by satan, for those horrified and sympathetic christians reading this!) (but all the best to you all..whatever floats your boat man!)(but dont pray for me, Im ok!)(thanks) 
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:10/05/2008 1:49 AM)


Heres the link to the Ex-Christian forum

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?act=idx

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:10/05/2008 1:24 PM)

If we are not able to understand Gods ways, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist!
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:10/05/2008 1:43 PM)

Might well be true - but then again - why jump to religious theories and doctrines which have no other purpose than to controll people and people's minds.

In other words - if you leave religion out of the equation - what do you do with your faith, believe, wishful thinking (or whatever you want to call it) - what's the agenda to follow? Who's right and who's wrong?

Regards.... - seeker
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:10/05/2008 11:56 PM)

Religious theories and doctrines might have no other purpose than to controll people - that's why it is necessary to be set free. It took me too many years in CAI to realize, that I voluntarily submitted to an evil system of control, abuse and rude behaviour.
I sensed that something was wrong in CAI, but I believed people more than God. Since I read in the bible that a bishop should have (among other things) good manners, this should have been enough for me to stand up and go; I was stupid enough to stay and accept some lame excuse.
But now God restored my life and blessed me abundantly. From my experiences in CAI I've learned, that I'm free indeed, but I have to guard my freedom.
From what I know, no adult was forced to stay with the CAI. I know it is more difficult if you are married, but then again you can stand up and get legal advice instead of living in hell on earth.
What I'm more concerned about are the children, who can't defend themselves and are forced to submitt.
Praise God, I was not married in CAI and had no children. From my experience with my baby now, I can only say that if anybody would have dared to treat my baby like it was usus in CAI, I would have come upon that person like a ton of bricks.

 
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 3:49 AM)

Do YOU understand God's ways?? You have never asked questions such as I have mentioned above? Are you another one of those christians who puts his head in the sand and who avoids such difficult subjects?
I had 17 years of "stop thinking, switch of your mind, only trust and obey" philosophy and Iam afraid that this is how most christians deal with the above mentioned questions.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you for having faith in God or anything for that matter, but I put such questions out there in the hope that someone somewhere might know something that I don't. Rather than ignore them I prefer to take them head on.

I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, but I struggle with certain things God says in the Bible. He first gives us the ability to reason and ask questions but then tells us that "there is no searching of His understanding..". Since we face the possibilty of ending up in hell, don't you think we should have the right to ask why we have to go through this mess here on earth, why He didn't come up with a better plan and that we should be able to expect some reasonable answers for the sake of our own peace of mind??

the mind.




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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 4:57 AM)

The Topic might be interesting for you, but  it has nothing to do with the CAI.
Many of those so called revivals of this age is a waste of time and irritate those who are not strong in faith such pseudo awakening. - Maybe here we have a comparison with the sect CAI.

So milk again:

Matth. 24, 4-28
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 7:33 AM)

Dear mind...

Thanks a lot for your input on "does GOD exist". Yes it´s an interesting question and even many believe and many don´t there is not - look here he it is, kind of answer. Yes it´s belive, mixed with faith and that´s a personal thing.

We watched a movie yesterday and the guy - a killer said - you know I killed a lot of people and ALL prayed and called upon GOD in their last minute but he never helped them and therefore I don´t believe that he exists.
Funny !?

In Schindlers´ list we see this nazi who want to kill the jew but his handgun doesn´t work. The jew goes free and the nazi  doesn´t even give it another thought. 

Where is GOD in all this? Get killed or not - does GOD have anything to do with it? 

I often asked GOD / Myself - God how much is a soul worth - and I always got the answer - I gave my son.
I would have loved to hear somthing different but I did not. That´s what yours and my sould are worth not more not less but still it´s of now use if you do not start to get to know the son and the father. It´s personal nobody can proof to you that GOD exists. He´ll touch your heart one day once more like he did many years ago. It´s different to get to know him then to get to know the messenger (cult) 

Have a look at the Florida revival. Maybe some the words will touch your heart. I hope and pray for you. I got to know JESUS and his FATHER AGAIN. I lost the view, I lost the direction and I did a lot of things within the cult because it fittet me or because I was to scared to loose my salvation.

Please feel hugged - GOD is a goog GOD...

AR 

   
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 2:02 PM)

Hello mind...

I find your way of asking and reasoning very interessting - the same sort of questions troubles me quite a lot. I, too, have realized that I gave myself voluntarily to a man-made controll system and did not see the dangers in it. Since I left CAI and started thinking again I often wonder what's wrong and what's right.... deep down I believe there is a God, since there is so much around me which is (to me) just too amazing and wonderful that I can't help but to explain it's design by a higher authority. But the fact that I believe in God does not give me the answers to what is right and what is wrong in this life, here on planet earth. And on the other hand I can see multitudes of people following some sort of believe system, faith, religion or cult - and all believe they are true. The fact in itself that Christianity has many facettes makes it hard to find the right one.... and if I want to believe Jesus's word then he never started a Christian church, or a Pentecostal church, or a Baptist church, or Methodist .... or whatsoever church - he just simply showed what a life under the leading hand of God could be like. At the same time he declared that he is the way, the truth and the life.... and finally, in the cross that "it is finished". If he is the way, the truth and the life and the redemptive work indeed is finished - what can man then add to God's saving plan??

Still many questions.... and still only a few answers.... if you ever come across some more insight then please let me know.

Regards - seeker
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 5:27 PM)

Hello 'the Mind'

What truly wonderful questions you ask. As I understand it they've occupied the minds of Christian apologists since the time of Paul the apostle, if not before, and no doubt Jewish apologists dealt with many of them for millenia before that.

If you're truly interested in listening to informed Christian responses to them, might I suggest you read through the works of the theologians of the past and present (no doubt you can 'google' some names ranging from Tertullian through Augstine, Luther and Calvin to Karl Barth and further), if you haven't done so already. Might I also suggest that you try engaging with 'elders' from various small 'o' orthodox Christian backgrounds, as most of us at this forum have learned precious little about worshipping God with our minds.

Cheers



(Message edited by Talmid On 11/05/2008 5:42 PM)
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 6:14 PM)

Thanks Talmid, 
                         when I'm ready I might take up some of your suggstions. I wonder though about the people in the past who didn't have access to 'Google' or even theological books for that matter. Shouldn't God have answered such questions in a plain and simple way for everyone to understand and not only for those who hold a degree in theology?
What if people simply don't have the time to work through volumes and volumes of theological books because they are working day and night trying to feed the family and the little free time they have left they would like to spend with their wife and children?

Do people who lived in the dark ages go to hell because they couldn't google 'Luther ' ?

Thanks also to all the others for your input!

the mind.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 7:07 PM)

Hi 'TM'

when I'm ready I might take up some of your suggstions.

Ok, but I think finding a 'mindful' small 'o' orthodox teacher might be a  quick path to what you're looking for. Maybe a single evening's chat could get you there.

I wonder though about the people in the past who didn't have access to 'Google' or even theological books for that matter. Shouldn't God have answered such questions in a plain and simple way for everyone to understand and not only for those who hold a degree in theology?
 
Humility towards God combined with a sensible approach to the bible goes a long way. See also my comment about 'mindful' teachers above. My understanding is that most teachers in 'o'rthodox churches through history weren't the ignorant dimwits (such as myself, in times gone by) that seem to predominate in the Revival universe.

What if people simply don't have the time to work through volumes and volumes of theological books because they are working day and night trying to feed the family and the little free time they have left they would like to spend with their wife and children?

See above re finding a teacher who works with their mind, not just their emotions. I suspect you could contact most 'elders' such as I've described above and they'd jump at the opportunity to show how the Christian god can be worshipped with one's mind, provided the humility I mentioned is there.

(Why not shoot off a generalised email to all of the local 'o'rthodox churches and see what happens?)

Do people who lived in the dark ages go to hell because they couldn't google 'Luther ' ?

You make you're point well, though you might be surprised at the 'mind work' that seems to have been going on during 'the dark ages'. Are you prepared to take up my email suggestion (or even walk into the first manse you see when you take your lunch break) instead of replying to this post Tongue out


(Message edited by Talmid On 11/05/2008 7:35 PM)
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:11/05/2008 10:20 PM)

I will reply to your post but not to add any more question but rather to thank you whoever you are. As I wrote in my previous post, when I'm ready to set foot in a church again be assured that i will present my questions to the minister. May God help him to help me.

the mind.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:12/05/2008 1:13 AM)

Hi 'TM'


I will reply to your post but not to add any more question but rather to thank you whoever you are.

No problem. I'm from RCI/RF rather than CAI

As I wrote in my previous post, when I'm ready to set foot in a church again be assured that i will present my questions to the minister. May God help him to help me.

Sure.

(Message edited by Talmid On 12/05/2008 2:07 AM)
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:14/05/2008 12:30 PM)

If you see a smiling peadophile, Scott Williams, you know you have entered hell!

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:16/05/2008 5:27 AM)



May Hell freeze over this lying cruzified swine in Heaven - may every minute I sacrificed for this arsehole on the cross be damned - if I had a time machine I gladly would reverse my cursed baptism - I never understood it before - Satan and 1/3 of the angels were just sick worshipping this lying swine and his senile bastard-father - wasting 1000's of years singing halle-fucking-luja for one who isn't worth being thrown shit at!

It would have been a blessing for human kind to burn this cursed bible that has caused soo much pain and suffering and was the foundation of many deceptions - and shit on this impotent fucking pseudo-father on his heavenly throne - may he burn in his own hell one day!!


Jesus and your fucking arse-father: "GO and FUCK YOURSELF (for a change!) !!" Knowing that this bastard calls himself father gives this lovely word a stinking smell!
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:16/05/2008 5:59 AM)

 What exactly is your problem?
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:18/05/2008 6:08 PM)

hello angree arse!.....why dont you go away and take your foul mouth somware else.........if i knew who you were I'd come to your house and give you a good SMITING  :-) .....piss of somwere else and get on with your life.....your on dangerous grownd!


JESUS IS LORD!!!!

PRAISE THE LORD!!!!
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:18/05/2008 10:19 PM)

 Whoever wrote the reply above should not have used the name of Jesus in the same message. Seems the old CAI spirit is coming out again... NOT a Christian way of engaging in a discussion, mate!

Anyways, just wanted to reply to an earlier assertion that God would have created evil. That's wrong. Maybe the following story will help:

Does evil exist?

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists? A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything? The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil". The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name — Albert Einstein.

Whether this is really from Einstein or not doesn't matter. But think again. God intervened in history before. Also, there is proof for His existence. Take "Intelligen Design", for example. You simply can't explain the world by evolution, sorry. Or take George Mueller - just read his life story again and then tell me there is no God. Who, then, was he praying to and who, then, answered his prayers? I could go on...

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:19/05/2008 1:33 AM)

ok...im sorry for being aggresive with my answer to the bloke that wrote that terrible stuff about my Daddy but I wish people wouldnt continue to have the blame game all the time and say that its every body elses fault.......It is horrific to see how people are......I wonder if they had a relationship with Jesus when the said thery beilived at all...Anyway....I have repented for the outburst but still can warn that nobody but ourselves can blow our salvation!


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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:19/05/2008 9:25 PM)

....and the professor and the student lived happily ever after. Nice story and parts of it make sense, yet when you come to the God part it all goes wrong. Please tell me,

#  which God was Einstein talking about?

#  if he meant the christian God then how do you explain the tree of knowledge of good AND EVIL? 

#  Where did the evil come from if God didn't put it there in the first place?

Countless wars have been fought and blood has been spilt to fill the oceans of the earth not because of lack of God in our lives, yet rather because of Him. Wouldn't you agree that the representation and misrepresentation of God have caused more hardship, heartache and death etc. than any other thing here on this earth?

the mind.
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:19/05/2008 10:43 PM)

 OK, this is getting fairly long, but I think it’s worth it.

#  which God was Einstein talking about?

Actually, the god of the Jews and the god of the Christians is the same. But this really doesn’t matter, since the example was given in the obvious context of the God of the Bible = there is only one, and that’s the one we’re talking about here. We’re trying to understand something about God, and it doesn’t really matter who had the original insight or what he was talking about, as long as we agree it’s essential and valid for our discussion here.

#  if he meant the christian God then how do you explain the tree of knowledge of good  AND EVIL?

This may help in our definition of EVIL. The idea of the command was that GOD would determine what is good and what is evil. In other words, if we depend on God for this determination and not on ourselves, we will obey His commandments, and hence do good. Once we break His commandments, we do evil. Wanting to decide what’s good and what’s evil is exactly what humanism tries to do, without God. The problem with that is, there is NO FOUNDATION for deciding what is good and what is evil without a God who defines it. Getting back to the question of God’s existence, this is actually one of the strong arguments that He does indeed exist. For if we are all just here because of some mindless evolutionary process, then why are we s concerned about helping the weak, healing the sick, feeding the poor, etc.? Why not leave them al to rot according to the principle of “survival of the fittest”? For that’s what each atheist has to admit if he thinks his atheism through to the end: there is no sense to life, there is no reason to be “good” – and we can’t even tell what’s good and what isn’t. For who is to tell Hitler that killing Jews isn’t good? On what grounds? If there is no God-given revelation that teaches “thou shalt not kill”, then why the heck don’t we just do as we please? Kill, rape, ransack – go ahead, there is then no law against it!

So evil, then, is simply acting against God’s revealed will. It only exists because of the commandment given by God in the first place. Now if God gave commandments that are GOOD then how can you blame Him for the fact that humans do evil?

#  Where did the evil come from if God didn't put it there in the first place?

“Evil” is only a philosophical/moral definition. It’s not something that is actually created in the sense that a lion, a stone, or a tree are created. Of course in a sense you’re right – God “created” the possibility of committing evil – but not evil itself. He decided to create angels and then humans that have the capacity of either loving Him or hating Him (as someone posting on this page apparently does). Now you can blame God for making people that He knew would commit evil. So He’s then responsible for their deeds. The problem with that is, if He had decided NOT to give them the possibility to be evil then these very same beings would not be capable of loving God, or of love at all. There would be no compassion, no self-sacrifice, no GOOD  because without evil, how can there be good? How can we DECIDE to do the right thing if we CANNOT do the wrong thing?

God would have had to lobotomize us all, and we would have become mindless creatures without any moral responsibility and without and real capacity to interact with God and experience fellowship with Him. No, to have someone to relate to, God had to create us with the same capacity that He has – to do good and to do evil.

The responsibility for what is going wrong still lies with us, not with God. Indeed, people suffer. But not because of what God did, but because of what WE did. I’m prepared to try and answer further questions, but let me indicate that we cannot understand fully what the reasons are why God made us in the first place – fully aware of what would happen. He is the only one who can see the full picture. Or do you know what it is like in heaven? If it is worth all the suffering here once we get to taste the heavenly things close to God, when we shall see Him face to face?

I’m not trying to brush over the tragic of the last 6,000 years of history. But even though I know what happened to many, including confessing Christians who were slaughtered for their faith, I am myself quite happy to have been created, and would not want to miss out on what God has to offer me. This offer is there for all. So I’d rather have Him do what He’s doing than imagining a situation where Earth would never have been created and we would simply not exist. And I think deep down everyone somehow agrees with that thought.

Countless wars have been fought and blood has been spilt to fill the oceans of the earth not because  of lack of God in our lives, yet rather because of Him. Wouldn't you agree that the representation and misrepresentation of God have caused more hardship, heartache and  death etc. than any other thing here on this earth?

I completely disagree with that view. I would say with Paul that wars take place because we NEGLECT God, not because Christianity exists. Yes, the misrepresentation of God has caused an awful lot of hardship. But that contradicts what you were claiming – since a misrepresentation just means people did not KNOW God at all! If they had, human history would have been very different. I don’t know how anyone can think differently, since it is so obvious what a true conversion to Christ does in people’s lives. There is a lot of material out there – the 1906 Wales revival, for example, when virtually nobody committed crimes and the police were out of work. Or any personal testimony you can google that will confirm that people reformed their lives, confessed their wrongdoings and restored stolen good, reconciled with their enemies and overcame their pride that was the cause of their antagonism in the first place.

Without God, things are A LOT WORSE – as everyone can easily see from what’s happening under godless regimes, such as Burma (watch the news!), the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc. – this is what life in earth looks like WITHOUT GOD.

The Machine

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 2:40 AM)

Hi Machine,

You said "If there is no God-given revelation that teaches “thou shalt not kill”, then why the heck don’t we just do as we please? Kill, rape, ransack – go ahead, there is then no law against it!"

If you get to know some atheists in person, I think you find that alot of them are members of organizations such as amnesty international, or the mainstay of the local tennis team, or volunteers in places like meals on wheels. THey're doing it because they enjoy giving back to society. They're not doing it because otherwise they will be punished by some god in the sky.

Its lovely meeting genuine people out here, once you leave the church groups, and it makes you wonder what sort of people christians like you are, Machine, if you would like to kill or rape, but are only obstaining because its against the law in your book!!

Big girl

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 2:49 AM)

Hi Machine and Mind, may Moth interject?

Actually, the god of the Jews and the god of the Christians is the same. But this really doesn't matter, since the example was given in the obvious context of the God of the Bible = there is only one, and that's the one we're talking about here.

I would think a current day jew's perception of god is fairly different to a Christian's god as much as the JW god is different to a Mormon God. They got the character from the same book, but have trimmed off enough to make him very much a different personality.

This may help in our definition of EVIL. The idea of the command was that GOD would determine what is good and what is evil. In other words, if we depend on God for this determination and not on ourselves, we will obey His commandments, and hence do good. Once we break His commandments, we do evil. Wanting to decide what's good and what's evil is exactly what humanism tries to do, without God.

Heck, if you get your morals from the bible then I don't want YOU coming anywhere near my daughter. From what I read of god in the Old Testament, it seems he advocated the genocide of enemy nations and he had no problem with slavery or rape... no problem at all. In fact many passages show god to demand his people rape, pillage and murder. Rape is ok, it seems, as long as you pay her dad and marry her... lucky girl.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

2 Samuel 12:11-14 Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. 

Numbers 31:7-18 Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.

The problem with that is, there is NO FOUNDATION for deciding what is good and what is evil without a God who defines it. Getting back to the question of God's existence, this is actually one of the strong arguments that He does indeed exist.

What crap. Moral relativity states that whether an action is right or wrong should come from study, culture, context, usefulness, etc. and NOT absolutes handed down from a deity to humanity in some form of sacred text. Doesn't supposedly knowing the ultimate nature of morality take away from the idea of morality a little? Life is complicated. When you try to reduce all of life to an ugly montage of black/white, right/wrong, heaven/hell, you ruin the beauty of everyday life. You look for all the obvious morals that are shared by any decent religion, (and humanist for that matter) and can only assume the 'unsaid' morals are your god's...

With that mentality, so far we see that God doesn't have a big problem with Rape.

or pedophilia

or child molestation

or animal abuse

or slavery

or domestic abuse

Heck god ordered his people to kill children and had no trouble doing it himself.

For if we are all just here because of some mindless evolutionary process, then why are we s concerned about helping the weak, healing the sick, feeding the poor, etc.? Why not leave them al to rot according to the principle of "survival of the fittest"?

You seriously think that Christians are the only people who actually want to help the sick and feed the poor? Your perception of the world is outtawack.

For that's what each atheist has to admit if he thinks his atheism through to the end: there is no sense to life, there is no reason to be "good" - and we can't even tell what's good and what isn't. For who is to tell Hitler that killing Jews isn't good? On what grounds? If there is no God-given revelation that teaches "thou shalt not kill", then why the heck don't we just do as we please? Kill, rape, ransack - go ahead, there is then no law against it!

Well, any decent society does actually have 'laws' in place to try and deter the phsycopaths. You sir are a scary scary person. The only reason you don't rape or kill me is because it says not to in your book?? Stay away from my family because you don't seem to be able to understand WHY various actions are socially unnacceptable in our society. If there are religious psycopaths that are detered by the idea of god and hell, then phew, religion certainly does have its place. And Hitler may have been using the bible to slaughter who he thought were his enemies... afterall, it was God who commanded his armies to slaughter and pillage their's.

I'm not trying to brush over the tragic of the last 6,000 years of history. But even though I know what happened to many, including confessing Christians who were slaughtered for their faith, I am myself quite happy to have been created, and would not want to miss out on what God has to offer me. This offer is there for all. So I'd rather have Him do what He's doing than imagining a situation where Earth would never have been created and we would simply not exist. And I think deep down everyone somehow agrees with that thought.

Deep down? No. I'd much rather no one have existed than have a god who allowed countless innocent people to be tortured (and tortured for eternity according to many Christians). Do a google of David Parker Ray and what that psychopath used to do to his victims. I can't type it, yet alone try to think about it for more than a few moments. Such deviant monsters are a by-product of 'the great plan'. The price would be too high. There is far too much pain and always has been, but that's life hey?

I would say with Paul that wars take place because we NEGLECT God, not because Christianity exists. Yes, the misrepresentation of God has caused an awful lot of hardship. But that contradicts what you were claiming - since a misrepresentation just means people did not KNOW God at all!

I'm not sure, maybe they did know god. I'd say the Old Testament God should be on trial for his crimes against humanity.

If they had, human history would have been very different. I don't know how anyone can think differently, since it is so obvious what a true conversion to Christ does in people's lives. There is a lot of material out there - the 1906 Wales revival, for example, when virtually nobody committed crimes and the police were out of work. Or any personal testimony you can google that will confirm that people reformed their lives, confessed their wrongdoings and restored stolen good, reconciled with their enemies and overcame their pride that was the cause of their antagonism in the first place.

Google people who have change their lives without christianity too. It's true though, many people do need religion in their lives to either scare them clean or be some sort of example (apart from the examples listed before). I also see religion to be a reason for some Christians to hate homosexuals, or to separate themselves all high and mightily from other religions, and lets not forget groups like the KKK - they loved the bible.

Without God, things are A LOT WORSE - as everyone can easily see from what's happening under godless regimes, such as Burma (watch the news!), the Soviet Union, North Korea, etc. - this is what life in earth looks like WITHOUT GOD.

Different religions, different cultures. Being not-christian doesn't equal a worse life.

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 7:33 AM)

Moth said, "I'd say the Old Testament God should be on trial for his crimes against humanity"

Jesus was the old testament God. It was actually Jesus who told the armies to go and kill everyone, and take the young girls to be raped. It was Jesus who was happy that Lot saved the angels from being raped by the rabble outside, and gave his young daughters to them instead. Jesus wanted rocks thrown at women caught in adultery.

He then changed his mind a couple of thousand years later, and said we shouldn't do it anymore.

CHristians are a bit uncomfortable about scriptures like this. for the parts of the bible they can't explain they say, 'well, God is wise and knows best, even though I don't understand it' THat is blind obstinate faith that flies in the face of all human decency and kindness.

Big girl


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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 4:29 PM)

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 4:50 PM)


What are you afraid of, Brolga?

Big girl
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 5:43 PM)

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 6:01 PM)

 Hi brolga,

But the new testament states that in the beginning was the Word, the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh in Jesus. God is God is Jesus

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 6:16 PM)

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 6:34 PM)

Brolga,

I don't want my children to go and take drugs and steal to fund their habit. But if they do, i'm not going to smite them. Would you think i was kind if i instituted a system where I said, if you study hard and live a good clean life, I will buy you a house and give you lots of love. If you go off the rails, I will lock you up in a dungeon with rats for the rest of your life.

Using your reasoning, I would be seen as a loving parent, because i offer hope and love if they obey me.

Big girl
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 7:25 PM)

Hey Moth

I'm assuming you're representative of a few of  the recent posters in this thread, so this is kind of general, rather than personal.

At one point you write: "Moral relativity states that whether an action is right or wrong should come from study, culture, context, usefulness, etc.  and NOT absolutes handed down from a deity to humanity in some form of sacred text."

OK. I'm assuming, based on this and past comments of yours, that this is the approach you approve. You seem to think it's "right".

Then you write, "Heck god ordered his people to kill children and had no trouble doing it himself."

It seems to me that this order is something you *dis*approve. You seem to think it's "wrong".

Que? Aren't you coming from a different perspective of "culture, context, usefulness"? Doesn't that mean although it's rational for you to disapprove, it's not rational for you to say it was "wrong"?

Hmmm .... actually, what *do* you mean by "right" and "wrong"?
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 7:29 PM)

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 7:47 PM)

Yo BG

I agree with your implication that Jesus (the Son) was in full agreement with what the Godhead said and did in the OT.

Here's an extension of your analogy (which you've probably heard before) that's worth a thought. As a parent, at times, we allow our children to suffer unpleasant consequences. We sometimes prevent them from doing other things ... "You are *not* going to eat 2 kilograms of chocolate before breakfast, and that's final." Further we at times make them do things they don't want to do ... "You will clean up that mess you made *now*." How often do they then tell us in no uncertain terms, and with utter certainty - at least when they're young - that, "You don't love me." (Well not often, but wow does it hurt when they do.)

Personally, if a child of mine "went off the rails" my goal would be to allow them to experience age-appropriate consequences and then encourage and assist them back "onto the rails" (... and that's of course what I see in the OT).

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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 7:53 PM)


Brolga,
I'm not talking about revival centre doctrine here, but christianity in general. I was making a parable, if you like, which represents how the bible portrays God. In my parable, I am a loving and merciful parent and I will spend everything I can to help my children. but if they reject my love and kindness, I will organize for some underworld figure to have them and abuse them forever.

Am I a loving parent?

In a recent post I said that christians get uncomfortable with the punishmetn god will give those that don't obey him. You have confirmed that by saying that you don't understand why god set it up that way. What don't you understand about it?
Big girl
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 8:06 PM)

Hi Talmid, how you doing?Cool

I think that the true creator, life force, .... (who with my limited mind I can't even describe or name) has actually created us humans with everything we need.

As we are children, our parents will be our conscience and our protection from illnesses caused by too much chocolate and junk food.

As we get older, we realize the consequences of our actions, and these consequences are common for us all who share our human nature. WE are prone to jealousy, anger, and unforgiveness etc. We all know these emotions can cause physical changes in our bodies, and can cause us illness. If we forgive someone, it is not making them feel better, but it releases us from negative, damaging results in ourselves.

THe kingdom of god is within us. We do not need punishing and coercing into doing whats right. We know that we reap the consequences within us. These concepts were known by many ancient belief systems. I'm sure that a man called Jesus did exist as a human being and taught these same eternal concepts.

Unfortunately, this was all corrupted, and history can tell you the rest!

Big girl
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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 8:21 PM)

Hi Talmid again, I would like to comment on what you replied to moth

Anyway, you said to moth,

"Que? Aren't you coming from a different perspective of "culture, context, usefulness"?

I think you mean that moth can't say what is right and wrong. But we are all products of our time. In our culture today, there are war crime courts set up to deal with mass killing. Hitler is seen as evil in our time because he did 'racial cleansing' just as God/Jesus did a while ago.
If someone willingly gave there little girls to be raped by paedophiles, this society is sickened and outraged. THere are laws to prevent slavery in Australia today.  I can't helped to have my world view influence by todays morals. I belive I can, say that what God/Jesus did was horrific.

THis is why Moth said its wrong that God/Jesus killed children. Talmid, how can you not think this? Even though it was quite a while ago, they were still real people that loved, bore and nurtured children. 

Biggirl


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RE:Revival in Florida
(Date Posted:20/05/2008 9:01 PM)

BG

What do you mean by "wrong"?
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