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Title: Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
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(Date Posted:17/05/2010 7:33 PM)
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I know we're not supposed to post big chunks of text on here, but this article is so well written and so concise that I just can't help myself.

This 'issue' was the final straw, the final nail in the coffin so to speak as to why I finally rejected and ejected faith in Christ and stopped calling myself a Christian. I have yet to hear a decent rebuttal of this issue from anyone in the Christian camp.

But I sincerely invite a response from anyone who would like to correct any misunderstandings the author below might have. In doing so, you might be indirectly saving my soul.


====================

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Jesus

Jesus' failed prophecy

A final prophecy meriting closer examination is Jesus' prediction of his return during the generation in which he lived:

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28).

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other ... Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Matthew 24:30-34).

There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near ... Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Luke 21:25-33).

When we compare these three passages together in the context of the whole New Testament, in which Jesus' return was expected in the generation then living, a strong case can be made that this is really what Jesus meant (or that this is what the writers who reported Jesus' words intended to convey). The problem is so acute that C. S. Lewis, arguably the greatest Christian apologist of the twentieth century, acknowledged this is what Jesus meant, but that he in his humanity was limited in his foreknowledge, so he did not in fact return in that generation as predicted:

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance (Lewis 1960, 99).

Lewis' solution, which mistakes false prophecy for mere ignorance (why prophesy concerning matters about which one is ignorant?), cannot be entertained by those who hold to Jesus' authority in all he said. The following Old Testament passage shuts out this possibility:

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him (Deut. 18:21-22).

As a believer I had often heard evangelicals making fun of Jehovah's Witnesses for their failed prophecies of Jesus' return, yet I was for many years effectively oblivious to the same problem in the New Testament.

In an alternative attempt to address the problem of Jesus' predicted early return, a significant minority of evangelicals holds to a Preterist view of prophecy, maintaining that Jesus did in fact return in the first century:

If Jesus meant what He said, said what He meant, and was an infallible Prophet, all the components of his prophecy must stand or fall together. These certainly include his coming on the clouds with power and glory. The failure of any one component to occur within that existing generation would disqualify Jesus as a prophet and call into question the truth of Scripture. If He did not return when He said He would, we have a dilemma of huge proportions (Noe 1996).

It is doubtless the lack of evidence for Jesus' return in the first century that allows most evangelicals to dismiss this view without serious consideration. But for Preterists, the lack of evidence for Jesus' past return is less of a problem than is any attempt to twist the face value of Jesus' prophecies to allow for his return in a later generation. Likewise, for Lewis it was less problematic to believe that Jesus was mistaken than to reinterpret his words in the manner that most evangelicals tend to do in order to get around the first-generation problem. This is a dilemma for which there is apparently no good solution; I cannot believe that Jesus has returned in the past or will ever return in the future.

Some have argued that Jesus' use of the word generation (genea in Greek) does not necessarily signify a generation as commonly understood, but that a secondary meaning of genea, namely, race (that is, the Jewish race), may have been intended. This suggests the unlikely possibility that all the scholars who produced the major English translations of the Bible (KJV, NIV, NASB, and others) were incompetent in their ability to discern the true meaning of the word, despite their mastery of Greek and the textual context. In addition, consider what such an interpretation would mean:

Jesus told his disciples, living in the first century, this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you [meaning his hearers, disciples of the first century] can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. "I tell you the truth, this race [that is, the Jewish race, of which you disciples are a part] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Luke 21:25-33).

The term race simply makes no sense in this context. There is no expectation anywhere in scripture that the Jewish race will ever cease to exist. Introducing such a timeframe in a prophecy clearly intended to place parameters on the timing of his return would be meaningless, on a par with, "I'm going to return before the human race ceases to exist." Would it have been of any comfort or significance to the disciples to know that their race would last until Jesus' return, not having any prior reason to think otherwise? No, this passage only means anything to its recipients if taken at face value: members of this generation, that is, Jesus' generation, not the Jewish race, and not some future generation (the Greek has a word for "that" in opposition to "this," so if Jesus meant "that generation," he could easily have made it explicit) will still be alive when Jesus returns. This is all the more evident when we consider that Jesus directs his comments to his disciples in the second person, making inescapable the conclusion that his disciples were expected to witness "these things."

Tangentially, it would seem odd for members of a particular race to refer to that race as "this race." Imagine you are a Caucasian speaking to your fellow Caucasian friends in the United States, and you have a hunch that the Caucasian race will last at least until the Boston Red Sox repeat their win of the World Series. Would you say, "This race won't come to an end before the Boston Red Sox win the World Series again," not having provided any clue as to the nature of the race? Even if there were not multiple meanings of the word race in English (for example, a one-mile race or an ethnicity), your friends would likely be confused if you meant an ethnicity. Only by adding a qualifier such as, "The Caucasion race won't come to end" would your statement communicate anything.

But let us imagine for the sake of argument that "this generation" might refer to "that [future] generation" or that generation might mean race. It is a cornerstone of Protestant hermeneutics to compare scripture with scripture when the meaning of one passage is in doubt. The intent of this approach is to enable us to grasp more clearly the meaning of the ambiguous passage (assuming it is truly ambiguous and not merely inconvenient; in the present case, "inconvenient" would be more appropriate than "ambiguous"). Do other passages give comfort to those who would interpret this passage contrary to its face value in order to excuse what appears to be a failed prophecy? No.

Let us revisit these verses:

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28).

There is no ambiguity here concerning the meaning of "generation"; the terms are explicitly laid out. There is no clearer way to say "this generation will not pass away" than to say, "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until ..." Since denying the meaning of this timeframe is not an option, the only recourse (other than admitting Jesus' fallibility à la C. S. Lewis) is to interpret the phrase "see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" as something other than Jesus' literal return. Accordingly, many apologists suggest that the story of the Transfiguration, which immediately follows Jesus' speech in the narrative, represents the fulfillment. Or perhaps it referred to some other event in Jesus' first advent—for example, the Resurrection. This may seem plausible at first, until all the details are taken into account.

First, if the Transfiguration followed on the heels of Jesus' prediction, what could have been the purpose of including the clause, "there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until ..."? Though there is wiggle room for interpreting Jesus' meaning, this is not language ordinarily used to describe an event that is to take place in short order. If Jesus knew that the transfiguration was right around the corner (or that the Resurrection was to occur within a year, this being the final year of Jesus' ministry), it seems strange for him to have placed the event merely within his disciples' lifetime rather than "soon," "within a week," or "within a year," as the case may have been.

Perhaps he knew that saying "within a week" would have deprived the future depraved Ken Daniels of an opportunity to trump up a charge of false prophecy against Jesus. He knew in advance that Ken's heart would be a heart of stone and that he would be unable to believe merely on faith, so he gave Ken some fodder to harden his heart further, much like Yahweh's hardening of Pharaoh's heart in the time of the Exodus. You may chuckle, but such a suggestion has actually been made to me when discussing this passage with a believer.

More importantly, none of the events in Jesus' subsequent ministry—certainly not the Transfiguration or the Resurrection—fulfill the terms Jesus laid out in his prophecy. In context, he states, "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." The Transfiguration story mentions no angels, and though the Resurrection account includes angels, in no way can Jesus be said to have "come in the glory of his Father with His angels." And in neither case did he "recompense every man according to his deeds." This language, along with the mention of the Son of Man coming in his kingdom, is unmistakably apocalyptic, referring to the end of the age; to interpret it as an event occurring during the first century is to rationalize it in much the same way as Jehovah's Witnesses did when it became apparent that Jesus' expected return failed to materialize physically.

The above passages are not isolated suggestions that Jesus would return in the lifetime of his disciples; that expectation is expressed repeatedly throughout the New Testament. An extensive list of these passages is available from Edward Babinski's article, "The Lowdown on God's Showdown" (Babinski 2006); I will mention only a small subset here. (Comments in brackets in the following sets of verses are Babinski's.)

The world and its desires pass away ["This world, as it is now, will not last much longer" - Today's English Version], but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour (1 John 2:17-18).

By what legitimate hermeneutic can "the last hour" be transmuted to two millennia? Such a stretch renders language meaningless, as does the statement in 2 Peter 3:8 that "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day," used to excuse Jesus' failure to return up to the point of its writing. It goes without saying that the writer of 1 John did not mean "the last 60 minutes," but it is clear that a sense of urgency is being expressed to individuals who lived in his day, not to those who have lived in the subsequent nineteen centuries.

Paul certainly expected to be counted among those still living at the end of the age (comments again are Babinski's):

According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

The time has been shortened so that from now on both those who have wives should be as though they had none [i.e., Paul preached that the time was so "short" that married Christian couples "from now on" ought to abstain from having sex!]; and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess; and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it [i.e., there was no time for marriage or buying or selling—only in a state of holy celibacy could the Elect remain pure while awaiting the soon return of Christ]; for the form of this world is passing away ["This world, as it is now, will not last much longer"—Today's English Version] ... These things were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come ... Proclaim the Lord's death until he comes [i.e., Paul did not say, "Proclaim the Lord's death until the day you die," but rather, "until he comes," which means that he considered Christ's coming to be nearer than the time when the believers he was writing to would all be dead] (1 Corinthians 7:29-31; 10:11; 11:26).

The New Testament repeatedly warns its first-century readers that their time is short and that they are to conduct themselves with the knowledge of his imminent return. Yet dozens of generations have come and gone since the time of Jesus, so we are confronted in this generation with the question, Are we more likely to meet God through the return of Jesus or through death? For generation after generation the answer has been death. If this is the case, then it would have made far more sense for the New Testament writers to have been more concerned with their readers' readiness for death than with their readiness for Jesus' return.

It is ironic that some who most ardently defend the authority of scripture and object to loose interpretations that justify homosexuality, for example, tend to reverse course when presented with passages that clearly teach the return of Jesus in the first century. If it is a matter of defending the moral high ground against sexual impurity, the Bible must be taken at face value, but if it comes to defending the authority of the Bible itself, reinterpreting what it appears to say is not only permissible but mandatory and laudable.[57] Apologists who present alternate interpretations to get the Bible off the hook are placed on a pedestal of high honor, having vindicated the Bible against the infidels who dare to bring against the Exalted Savior the charge of false prophecy. But infidels who insist on taking these passages at face value are demonized, branded as polemicists, or castigated for refusing to accept the creative thinking of apologists, who, after all, are every bit as human and subject to error as infidels. And if apologists are subject to error, then so were the New Testament authors, who were no less human themselves than the rest of us.

It was painful during my deconversion process to admit this level playing field, but I came to recognize that my instinct for placing the redeemed—including apologists, the New Testament authors, and Jesus himself—in a special untouchable category was a fatal impediment to an honest search for the truth. Only after this realization could I come to terms what should otherwise have been plain: Jesus did not return when he promised he would.

A skeptic could hardly ask for a more objective falsification of any religion: the religion's leader prophesies a globally identifiable series of events within a specified time period, but the events do not take place within that time period. Yet Christianity did not fail after the first generation; there were already too many believers with too much at stake, and when the fuzzy boundary of one generation was passed, reason was not going to stand in the way of the movement, since reason was not the primary impetus for Christians to believe in the first place. Instead, various explanations arose to account for what appeared on the surface to be a failed set of prophecies, just as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses later came up with explanations for their failed prophecies.

Those who expect Jesus to return and take them to glory appear to be resting in a false hope. It is very unlikely to happen. We should expect no judgment day before Jesus for those who deny the promise of his return, any more than we should expect a judgment day before Allah for those who deny the teachings of Muhammad.

Some may respond with anger to what they perceive as an overly confident and strident analysis of these passages. This is understandable for those who are resolved under no circumstances to abandon their faith. But instead of directing their anger at me, the messenger, why should believers not consider the simple possibility that they have been led down the wrong path? After all, considering the wide range of intransigently held erroneous beliefs in the world today, is it not possible or even probable that Christians are mistaken, despite their very good intentions? Why not do the right thing and show the world that it is in fact possible to change one's mind in the face of evidence that invalidates one's position? Why continue striving to excuse a faith that is, by all appearances, demonstrably false? Why delay coming to terms with reason one for more generation, only to have the same battles fought in the next? While Muslim extremists sow terror in the name of their faith around the world, we in the West must show by example that maintaining our ideologies at all costs against the best available evidence is not the way forward. How can we call on Muslims to abandon their unsupported faith if we are unwilling to give up our own?




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Reply To Te%20Luo%20Yi
(Date Posted:18/05/2010 4:45 AM)

Reply to Te Luo Yi


How about you making a summary lists of these so called "claims" - even in point format if you like..

..
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(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 18/05/2010 6:00 AM)
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:18/05/2010 5:24 AM)



Well, they're not 'so called "claims"'. They are claims. As to whether they are true or not, well let's see what turns up.

How about I just post his over-arching contention and then you can tell me why this uneducated nong is wrong...


And one more thing, I suggest we make a little rule that everyone makes sure they sign their posts so I'm not replying to a myriad of different people all confusingly knows as guest.

===========

A final prophecy meriting closer examination is Jesus' prediction of his return during the generation in which he lived:

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28).

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other ... Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Matthew 24:30-34).

There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near ... Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Luke 21:25-33).

When we compare these three passages together in the context of the whole New Testament, in which Jesus' return was expected in the generation then living, a strong case can be made that this is really what Jesus meant (or that this is what the writers who reported Jesus' words intended to convey).



(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 18/05/2010 6:01 AM)
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:18/05/2010 10:54 PM)

Here it is for what it’s worth.

 

(Words in “Italics” are not my thoughts)

 

A brief researching of this issue, with the few sources I have, reveals there seems to be a certain amount of truth the early Christians and Jesus himself may have expected to have fulfilled his mission, i.e. to have returned in that time frame.

 

What we need to take into account, if considering the Triune issue, is that Jesus is fully God AND fully Human. He was made just as you and I and dare I say, had human frailties also, But he was without sin as he was the conception of God the Father, but that’s another subject.

 

We are told that Jesus was a prophet (a religious intermediary whose function is to carry messages back and forth between human beings and a deity: “Merriam-Webster”) but in the subject under discussion I question whether he was actually prophesying an event to take place at that time or he was just predicting it was to happen then. Howbeit we are told; no man knows the hour of his return but the Father in heaven.

He was an eschatological” prophet and what he has said will surely come to pass. Most of the events  can be cited to have taken place by the end of that time except the literal return of Christ (Duvall,Grasping God’s word”).

 

E.g.Consider Matt.16; in the context of the message, Jesus is foretelling of his death and resurrection. What event is v28 referring to?

v21 ¹From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and the chief priests and scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.

In the verses that follow Jesus goes on to rebuke Peter for his carnal thinking then Jesus points out the vanity of living for oneself because of the end of things, v27

 

So we see here in the context of these passages, in v28 Jesus message is not referring to end time events but is referring to his death and resurrection and the establishing of the Kingdom on earth, those disciples, save one, were still alive when that event took place.

 

I admit there is many an error or contradiction one can find in the written word and I agree can be a bit un-nerving to a Christian, but to those that continue to walk in the light and knowledge of the message, will never turn back.  

 

Look, we can prattle on about whether the book is written such that it is flawless or whatever, where mankind is involved with all it’s frailty you will always get compromise and confusion no matter how much we like to think that we know it all. It isn’t enough that sways me from faith and belief.

 

The bottom line is; there is a clear message from the bible and it is a message that, above all man made religions, philosophy, worldly kingdoms and governments, and points of view, the Bible shows us that God is real, God is God, and it is the Word of God and it provides its followers with everlasting meaning and purpose and a cohesive worldview (J.P.Moreland)

 

Salpizō


¹
From that time. This phrase marks a new phase of Jesus’ ministry (4:17 note). Matthew turns from public preaching of Jesus in Galilee to his careful instruction of the disciples about his death and resurrection, his role as Messiah and theirs as disciples. (“Reformation study Bible”)

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:18/05/2010 11:16 PM)

Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest

Here it is for what it’s worth.

 



Thanks for replying Salpizō. I appreciate that you have.

Before I address the points raised in your post (and I promise I will), may I ask you a question or two?

How do you feel about the first half of Moreland's response? Do you feel it is an adequate enough explanation?

Are you comfortable with the idea that Jesus' humanity was at play and he simply got it wrong? Does your theology make room for the 2nd person of the Trinity to make false or failed prophecies?

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:19/05/2010 1:50 AM)

Moreland’s response? I have been reading his book, “Kingdom Triangle” and along with the many pursuits and experiences to gain a suitable and lasting peace in my life, I would dare to say, he hits the right button.

Moreland talks about how mankind was made to have “drama” in their life. Everything is a drama, religion, the pursuit of happiness, there is the quest for money and material gain, the need for entertainment, sport and sexual pleasures, and so on, all in the hope that it will make one happy.

All these things are a part of the drama of life but they are only short lived. The more we achieve in these things the more we want. They cannot give a lasting and assuring peace. The pursuit of this happiness overtakes true peace and happiness.

I, as with everyone else, have/will been/be there as we go through life’s journey and at this point in my life I can only find that real peace in my belief and faith in God, living as a Christian. "The peace of God that passes all understanding."  

 

 

Jesus Humanity? I maybe wrong in my interpretation of Matt. ch16 but that is how I see it until a more “learned” person can show me something different (thinking someone that can actually translate the Greek). As with Jesus’ humanity, my thoughts are based on human limitations. God surely loaded Jesus with all the “qualifications” of fallen man to be experienced so that his mission on the cross would be completely accomplished. He bore ALL our sins.

Because he is fully God also, Jesus made a choice, he could have gone the way of Satan but because God so loved the world…….he did the will of the Father. This side of things perhaps shows more the real nature of a loving God. I guess we could see ourselves as coming to a source of perfection only through Christ and by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus the “frail” human and a God who could never make false or failed prophecies.

 

Oh if one could really comprehend this mystery!

 

Salpizō

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:19/05/2010 2:14 AM)

Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest

 Whoops. I misread your 1st responsive post. I thought the entire thing was written by JP Moreland and you were cutting and pasting him.

OK, so what I should have asked you was,


    Do you feel that the first half of you response is an adequate enough explanation? Are you comfortable with the idea that Jesus' humanity was at play and he simply got it wrong?

    Does your theology make room for the 2nd person of the Trinity to make false or failed prophecies?

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:19/05/2010 2:56 AM)

Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest

I'm done with work for the day, so let me respond to your thoughtful post. I want you to know I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. You are the first to have done so since I raised it with my Christian friends and nemeses in 2005. So thanks. Truly.

You wrote:

 

A brief researching of this issue, with the few sources I have, reveals there seems to be a certain amount of truth the early Christians and Jesus himself may have expected to have fulfilled his mission, i.e. to have returned in that time frame.


Yes, I believe this is true too. There are a myriad of places in the NT that presuppose that the End of Days was imminent.

 

What we need to take into account, if considering the Triune issue, is that Jesus is fully God AND fully Human. He was made just as you and I and dare I say, had human frailties also, But he was without sin as he was the conception of God the Father, but that’s another subject.


According to Daniels, C.S. Lewis agreed with you. He quotes the following,


The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance (Lewis 1960, 99).

But as Daniels also says, to accept this position leaves you with the problem of Duet 18:21-22 which reads,


You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him (Deut. 18:21-22).


It also confronts us with a dilemma:

  1. What did Jesus say in his humanity and what did he say in his Divinity?
  2. How do we tell them apart?
  3. Which of Jesus' words can we now ignore? His commandments on divorce? His declarations about the Sabbath? His teachings about himself?

 

We are told that Jesus was a prophet (a religious intermediary whose function is to carry messages back and forth between human beings and a deity: “Merriam-Webster”) but in the subject under discussion I question whether he was actually prophesying an event to take place at that time or he was just predicting it was to happen then.


I think it's a HUGE stretch to say that a prophet can prophesy and a prophet can predict but these two are not the same thing. I mean, saying the end of days will be fulfilled in a few years is hardly the same as saying 'Collingwood will win the flag this year'. But if you are correct then don't you think the above verses would have been better suffixed if Jesus had said, "But this I have said in the flesh so worrieth not about this bit my disciples."


Howbeit we are told; no man knows the hour of his return but the Father in heaven.


And didn't he know that he should have kept silent on this issue then? Apparently not. Unless he was again speaking in his humanity when he said what he did about the day and the hour. Oh dear, would you look at all the worms that have sprung from this can? ;)


But isn't this one of the ways we know the JWs are full of it, that they incorrectly predicted the Return of Jesus? If we apply this to cults and heterodox sects, then shouldn't we be consistent and apply it to Jesus or at least the writers of Matthew and Luke? Hmmm, more worms.


He was an eschatological” prophet and what he has said will surely come to pass. Most of the events  can be cited to have taken place by the end of that time except the literal return of Christ (Duvall,Grasping God’s word”).


Yeah, but this one didn't come to pass. And this one is a biggie.


E.g.Consider Matt.16; in the context of the message, Jesus is foretelling of his death and resurrection. What event is v28 referring to?

v21 ¹From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and the chief priests and scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.

In the verses that follow Jesus goes on to rebuke Peter for his carnal thinking then Jesus points out the vanity of living for oneself because of the end of things, v27

 

I agree, we must look at the context and his words leading up to the verses in question do speak of his impending Passion. But the verses preceding also speak of his identity as the Son of Man, the Messiah, the Son of God, all Apocalyptic figures in Jewish Scripture and in the minds of his hearers. The one who would usher in a new age. (The preceding verses also speak of Peter's role as the foundation of the Church and then the vanity of living as if this world was all there was.) So there's more to the context of Jesus' words than the Passion.


So we see here in the context of these passages, in v28 Jesus message is not referring to end time events but is referring to his death and resurrection and the establishing of the Kingdom on earth, those disciples, save one, were still alive when that event took place.


Well, no, because after speaking of all these other things he then says,


For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.


This is definitely talking about the end times and the final judgement. And Jesus can't be speaking about his resurrection here as he didn't come with his angels (yes, yes, some were spotted about the empty tomb (or not, depending on which Gospel you read)) but that's hardly 'coming in the father's glory'. And most importantly, he certainly did not reward each person for what he has done. That is supposedly yet to happen according to what I was taught in Church.

 

I admit there is many an error or contradiction one can find in the written word and I agree can be a bit un-nerving to a Christian, but to those that continue to walk in the light and knowledge of the message, will never turn back. 


Well that's your choice, but then you are gonna have to apologise to the Mormons and JWs for judging them according to their false and failed prophecies.

 

Look, we can prattle on about whether the book is written such that it is flawless or whatever, where mankind is involved with all it’s frailty you will always get compromise and confusion no matter how much we like to think that we know it all. It isn’t enough that sways me from faith and belief.


That too is your choice. Good luck with that.

 

The bottom line is; there is a clear message from the bible and it is a message that, above all man made religions, philosophy, worldly kingdoms and governments, and points of view, the Bible shows us that God is real, God is God, and it is the Word of God and it provides its followers with everlasting meaning and purpose and a cohesive worldview (J.P.Moreland)

 

...and that Jesus prophesied his return in the lifetime of his followers and that never came to pass.

Mate, if I found a verse like this in the Koran then you'd laugh at it with me. But because it's found in your religious text, you call it a mystery.



(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 19/05/2010 8:13 AM)
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:19/05/2010 4:45 PM)

TLY,

This certainly is a challenging subject. I can't believe God/Jesus would compromise his word. Further studying in progress. More to come.

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:19/05/2010 7:29 PM)

Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest





Thanks Salpizo. I look forward to it.

You know, despite my bad press on here, I am actually more interested in discovering the truth about these verses than winning an argument.

If, after a review of the evidence you present, it turns out that there is a good explanation for these verses from a Christian perspective, then I will accept that. Believe it or not, I am being most genuine in saying this.

This is not to say I will necessarily re-convert, as my rejection of the faith is not built on a few verses, but I will certainly stop presenting these verses as 'proof' of my point of view.

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 8:21 AM)

The Bible's a bit frayed around the edges, but the core is intact. It's a book that's written in ink and has been handled by men, and it contains a simple message.

Judas only died one way and there are contradictions here and there. Some verses appear contradictory solely because of the intricacies of Bible translation. Others are due to copyist errors. We're able to determine what the error is, usually by context or by other verses. The original meaning is preserved and comes through. That is, no copyist error is so bad that the meaning of the text is obscured or lost.

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 6:47 PM)

Reply to is_Guest2

The Bible's a bit frayed around the edges, but the core is intact. It's a book that's written in ink and has been handled by men, and it contains a simple message.

Judas only died one way and there are contradictions here and there. Some verses appear contradictory solely because of the intricacies of Bible translation. Others are due to copyist errors. We're able to determine what the error is, usually by context or by other verses. The original meaning is preserved and comes through. That is, no copyist error is so bad that the meaning of the text is obscured or lost.

Guest2

Hey, would you mind signing your posts from now on so we can distinguish yours from other anonymous posters?  Thanks.

I agree, the Bible, both in writing and transmission, is a very human affair, but to say we needn't be troubled by these verses because of copyist errors opens another can of worms in terms of picking and choosing what one needs to take seriously in the Bible.

That is, no copyist error is so bad that the meaning of the text is obscured or lost.

So then what is your explanation for these verses in question? 
What should they have said?
Why is it that all respectable translations don't change these verses to read with less controversy but leave them as they are?
Did the majority of the world's Bible translators throughout history simply get it wrong?
Or did one naughty copyist just set everyone on the wrong path?




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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 7:53 PM)

Lots of poetic devices are used through the bible and if you go around slamming literal absolutes on them you'll find quite a few more contradictions that will further your disbeliefs in the existance of God. Due to the error factor that we get as a result of copyists, text converstion and our own failed comprehension, we have to make sure context is clearly identified, and then we have to have a running theme and/or significan amount of instances to validify the messages god wants us to know.

Peterism is the answer to your question concerning Matthew 24.

1. Nero was the Antichrist.  There will be no future individual Antichrist.

2. The Tribulation Period is already over.  It occurred when the Roman army besieged Jerusalem in AD 66-70.

3. Christ “returned” in the clouds in AD 70 to witness the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army. No, this is not going to be a future rapture event with a Goliath sized Jesus stepping all over the planet with hordes of angels in tow.

4. God replaced Old Testament Israel with the Church.  Therefore, all the biblical promises to Israel belong to the Church.  

5. Armageddon already happened in AD 70.  The fall of “Babylon” refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

6. Satan is already bound in the abyss and cannot hinder the spread of the Gospel.  Revelation 20 has already been fulfilled. Humans are the problem now. The damage has been done and the fallen man has the responsibility.

7. We are already in the Millennium, but it is not literal.  Some preterists equate the entire Church Age as the Millennium.  The 1,000 years are not literal but figurative. Numbers in scripture are a poetry unto themselves and not always to be taken literally. It's all about common sense really and the average Christian really has no idea about anything. They are off waiting for a rapture, or a new age and make a belief in a god totally unbelievable. Satan? THEY are their own worst enemies.

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 9:01 PM)

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Yes, I have heard the Preterist interpretation. As you summed it up,

3. Christ “returned” in the clouds in AD 70 to witness the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army. No, this is not going to be a future rapture event with a Goliath sized Jesus stepping all over the planet with hordes of angels in tow.

But I don't agree with you when you say that,
Peterism is the answer to your question concerning Matthew 24., and here's why:

Our verses in Matt 24 read,

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

So we read that:

1. Jesus will come in his Father's glory.
2. With his angels.
3. He will reward each person for what he has done (i.e. a judgement).
4. Some standing there were going to witness this even before they died.

Let me address points 1 & 2:
Well, I'm guessing you kind of do what the JWs did with their failed prophecy in 1914 or 1918 (the year escapes me) and say he returned invisibly? Of course, he must have come back invisibly or we'd have some serious write ups about this in Jewish and Roman history or even in the Bible itself.

But wait, we don't have a single description of this event in any text?  Not one? Nope. Nada. Not even the Bible!  Son of God comes back in his Father's glory with his angels and no one reports it?  Wow!  If you believe that then I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might like to buy. ;)


Point 3.
I realise one could argue that the fall of Jerusalem was this judgement. But even if we localise it to those in Jerusalem, did all the bad Jews die and all the good ones get away? Hardly. But I won't labour this one.


Point 4
And here is the biggie. Which of those standing there witnessed that event? Was Jesus' presence only visible to a few of them?  And which ones?  And, more importantly, why did none of them make mention of this in later Gospels, Epistles, or extra-Biblical texts?  You telling me that Jesus returns in the clouds, with his angels and not one Biblical writer makes mention of it?  Not one?  Hmmmm... 

I'll tell you why they didn't, because it didn't happen!!! And this Preterist interpretation is a far later invention that the early church. This was not how they would have interpreted Jesus' supposed words!

Daniels quoted another author (emphasis is mine),

If Jesus meant what He said, said what He meant, and was an infallible Prophet, all the components of his prophecy must stand or fall together. These certainly include his coming on the clouds with power and glory. The failure of any one component to occur within that existing generation would disqualify Jesus as a prophet and call into question the truth of Scripture. If He did not return when He said He would, we have a dilemma of huge proportions (Noe 1996).

So no, I don't believe Preterism answers my questions at all.

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 9:04 PM)

Forgive my typos - Preterism

“Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom of God with power.”

The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem put a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. Jesus' Second Coming was not a bodily return, but rather a "return" in glory manifested by the destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple. Partial Preterists theorise that the new creation comes in exponential redemption as Christ reigns from his heavenly throne, quashes his enemies, and eventuates in the destruction of the "last enemy", which is physical death. That was the second coming of Christ but perhaps not the "last' coming!

On the other hand, Futurists believe the expressions you see employed (e.g., "near," "soon," and "at hand"), give no indication that imminency requires immediacy when compared to the Old Testament usage of such words. It is also claimed that the term "generation" means "race" or "nation," as is the context of many verses. Even if the term were used to denote Christ's contemporaries, the grammatical structure of Matthew does not necessitate a first-century fulfillment.

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 9:17 PM)

Hello

I don't think you understand Preterism at all. You're looking at it from an incorrect perspective and it'd take a huge paradigm shift to clear away your misconceptions and non-conceptions of how the last two thousand years of history (and onward) have played out according to the Bible.

Preterists maintain that Futurists misunderstand the various metaphors, idioms and prophetic language that the New Testament employs. Preterists claim that many of these are proven to be idiom and metaphors by their use in the Old Testament, and are not meant to be taken literally, e.g., being seen "coming in clouds,"

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 9:47 PM)

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The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem put a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. Jesus' Second Coming was not a bodily return, but rather a "return" in glory manifested by the destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple.

Ah, so he was being so allegorical, so symbolic that when he said he was going to 'come in his Father's glory with his angels' he didn't really mean he was going to.  And when he said he will 'reward each person according to what he has done,' he didn't really mean he was going to. And when he said, 'I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom,' he didn't really mean they would.

I get it. That's much clearer, Thanks. ;)


Partial Preterists theorise that the new creation comes in exponential redemption as Christ reigns from his heavenly throne,

Yes, that's what the JW's also say about his no-show in 1914. I always thought that was hilarious, but now I know where they got the idea from. They adopted Preterism and gave it a few modern twists.

That was the second coming of Christ but perhaps not the "last' coming!

Jeez, how many times will this dude come? I jest, but this kind of slicing up of prophecy by time and ages is typically applied to prophecies that do not come to pass.  Apologists argue that if only part of a prophecy came to pass and the rest didn't then the rest will come to pass at a later stage. The Mormons do this with Joseph Smith's Civil War prophecy and it's laughable. You do it with the Bible and it's supposed to hold water. Nah, it doesn't I'm afraid.

Danie
ls
comments on the partitioning of prophecy here.

You then said,

On the other hand, Futurists believe the expressions you see employed (e.g., "near," "soon," and "at hand"), give no indication that imminency requires immediacy when compared to the Old Testament usage of such words. It is also claimed that the term "generation" means "race" or "nation," as is the context of many verses. Even if the term were used to denote Christ's contemporaries, the grammatical structure of Matthew does not necessitate a first-century fulfillment.

As I said, none of this is new, so Daniels responds,

Some have argued that Jesus' use of the word generation (genea in Greek) does not necessarily signify a generation as commonly understood, but that a secondary meaning of genea, namely, race (that is, the Jewish race), may have been intended. This suggests the unlikely possibility that all the scholars who produced the major English translations of the Bible (KJV, NIV, NASB, and others) were incompetent in their ability to discern the true meaning of the word, despite their mastery of Greek and the textual context. In addition, consider what such an interpretation would mean:

Jesus told his disciples, living in the first century, this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you [meaning his hearers, disciples of the first century] can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. "I tell you the truth, this race [that is, the Jewish race, of which you disciples are a part] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away (Luke 21:25-33).

The term race simply makes no sense in this context. There is no expectation anywhere in scripture that the Jewish race will ever cease to exist. Introducing such a timeframe in a prophecy clearly intended to place parameters on the timing of his return would be meaningless, on a par with, "I'm going to return before the human race ceases to exist." Would it have been of any comfort or significance to the disciples to know that their race would last until Jesus' return, not having any prior reason to think otherwise? No, this passage only means anything to its recipients if taken at face value: members of this generation, that is, Jesus' generation, not the Jewish race, and not some future generation (the Greek has a word for "that" in opposition to "this," so if Jesus meant "that generation," he could easily have made it explicit) will still be alive when Jesus returns. This is all the more evident when we consider that Jesus directs his comments to his disciples in the second person, making inescapable the conclusion that his disciples were expected to witness "these things."

Tangentially, it would seem odd for members of a particular race to refer to that race as "this race." Imagine you are a Caucasian speaking to your fellow Caucasian friends in the United States, and you have a hunch that the Caucasian race will last at least until the Boston Red Sox repeat their win of the World Series. Would you say, "This race won't come to an end before the Boston Red Sox win the World Series again," not having provided any clue as to the nature of the race? Even if there were not multiple meanings of the word race in English (for example, a one-mile race or an ethnicity), your friends would likely be confused if you meant an ethnicity. Only by adding a qualifier such as, "The Caucasion race won't come to end" would your statement communicate anything.

But let us imagine for the sake of argument that "this generation" might refer to "that [future] generation" or that generation might mean race. It is a cornerstone of Protestant hermeneutics to compare scripture with scripture when the meaning of one passage is in doubt. The intent of this approach is to enable us to grasp more clearly the meaning of the ambiguous passage (assuming it is truly ambiguous and not merely inconvenient; in the present case, "inconvenient" would be more appropriate than "ambiguous"). Do other passages give comfort to those who would interpret this passage contrary to its face value in order to excuse what appears to be a failed prophecy? No.

Let us revisit these verses:

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28).

There is no ambiguity here concerning the meaning of "generation"; the terms are explicitly laid out. There is no clearer way to say "this generation will not pass away" than to say, "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until ..." Since denying the meaning of this timeframe is not an option, the only recourse (other than admitting Jesus' fallibility à la C. S. Lewis) is to interpret the phrase "see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" as something other than Jesus' literal return.



(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 20/05/2010 10:15 PM)
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:20/05/2010 9:54 PM)

Reply to is _Artist Formally Known

I don't think you understand Preterism at all. You're looking at it from an incorrect perspective and it'd take a huge paradigm shift to clear away your misconceptions and non-conceptions of how the last two thousand years of history (and onward) have played out according to the Bible.

Or is it that Preterism is a convoluted construct to help explain away the glaring contradictions and failed prophecies of the Bible?  After all, these things I am raising are hardly new, and either is Preterism.

This reminds me of arguing with Mormons over their failed prophecies (which I have many times) or even with a Revivalist over British-Israelism. Sure, you can build a case and make it appear to work...once you ignore history, common sense and the simplest interpretation of the verses in question.  But you will be forever chasing your tail and plugging up holes that your interpretation creates. Talk about convoluted. And then you accuse others who won't play the same game as being either ignorant or lacking the faith. *Sigh* Been there, done that (on both sides) and I even have the t-shirt.

Preterists maintain that Futurists misunderstand the various metaphors, idioms and prophetic language that the New Testament employs. Preterists claim that many of these are proven to be idiom and metaphors by their use in the Old Testament, and are not meant to be taken literally, e.g., being seen "coming in clouds,"

See my comments regarding the non-literal interpretation argumentin my earlier post.

A simple summing up of the Preterist point of view would be, "Yes, Jesus said he was going to return in that way, but he didn't really mean that he was going to. What he meant was..." and off we go up the elephant around the castle.

It would seem that Preterists and unbelievers are really not that far apart in that we both think that although Jesus said he was coming back, he didn't. Jesus was just, as the Chinese say, "speaking farts".




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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:21/05/2010 1:18 AM)

Hello again

I don't agree with the Futurist's view but I thought to bring it up for contrast. I think they're grasping at straws, and everything about their future rapture events are equally convoluted. I do, however, agree with the Preterist view because it's the only conclusion if one believes in the divinity of the Bible.

"…whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

This statement leaves no room for a 2000 year delay to reach the cities of Israel, and certainly doesn't give any allowance for the 'hilarious' JW 1914 rot. Furthermore, most of those cities were destroyed by a.d. 70. So Christ’s return must have occurred by that time. I don't believe he ascended into the air like Superman would 'lift off' and wink into the camera as he left the Earth, and I don't believe he returned in such a manner either. I believe the allegory alludes to some sort of event that I can't quite explain explicitly. Not a clear enough conclusion for you, I understand, but it's a far cry from the JW's ongoing prophesies.

So, according to the Bible, Jesus returned to our plane of existence in some form at 70 AD. It didn't happen in the same way the futurists and yourself hypothesise that it should. They imagine very 'physical' events such as hordes of angels trumpeting and carrying swords etc. Angels are not necessarily viewable beings, and the realm that weaves itself into ours is not one that is obvious, quantifiable, or scientific. Such is the case with these heavenly things.

1st century Christians were expecting to see Jesus come out of a cloud like he supposedly disappeared into one and the instruction was to “lift up your heads, or look upward, point to a day when they would be “changed” like Christ’s glorious body. The Greek word ἀπολύτρωσις (apolutrosis) used here for “redemption” is the same word Paul used in romans 8:23 when he spoke of “the redemption of our body,” and then again iin eph 4:30 referring to “the day of redemption.” It’s doubtful anyone would argue this phrase refers to protection from the war.

In other places, apolutrosis always refers to 'setting free'. and not protection. Luke 21:28 foresees first-century Christians being set free from their physical bodies. By tying the redemption of first-century Christians to his vengeance on the Jews, Jesus was simply reiterating Isaiah’s prophecy:

1The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
  Because the Lord has anointed me…
  To proclaim liberty to captives
  And freedom to prisoners;
2To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
  And the day of vengeance of our God;
  To comfort all who mourn
(Isa. 61:1-2)

For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
(Isa. 63:4)

This doesn't refer only to the resurrection of the dead. Christ’s promise in Luke 21:28 referred to living Christians watching out for his return. If the 1st-century Christians were not raptured (for want of a better word) at the destruction of Jerusalem, then they were not redeemed, as per their 'reward'.


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(Date Posted:21/05/2010 2:36 AM)

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"…whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

This statement leaves no room for a 2000 year delay to reach the cities of Israel, and certainly doesn't give any allowance for the 'hilarious' JW 1914 rot. Furthermore, most of those cities were destroyed by a.d. 70.

I agree. However one reads it, the NT writers believed that this was all going to occur in their lifetime. Any attempt to say otherwise is simply duck and weave.

So Christ’s return must have occurred by that time. I don't believe he ascended into the air like Superman would 'lift off' and wink into the camera as he left the Earth, and I don't believe he returned in such a manner either. I believe the allegory alludes to some sort of event that I can't quite explain explicitly. Not a clear enough conclusion for you, I understand, but it's a far cry from the JW's ongoing prophesies.

You only say that thought because you come from the assumption that the bible is the Word of God and that leaves no room for such a blatant false or unfulfilled prophecy. The other, and I believe far simpler and more likely explanation is that Jesus and his mates got it wrong. When one applies Occam's Razor, this is the best answer.

So, according to the Bible, Jesus returned to our plane of existence in some form at 70 AD. It didn't happen in the same way the futurists and yourself hypothesise that it should. They imagine very 'physical' events such as hordes of angels trumpeting and carrying swords etc. Angels are not necessarily viewable beings, and the realm that weaves itself into ours is not one that is obvious, quantifiable, or scientific. Such is the case with these heavenly things.

Well, if you want to start saying 'mystery' then there is no music left for us to dance to. But I will respect that too. I have many believing friends and their religion is not the kind that is judgemental and condemning. I hope that your ability to navigate the Bible as you do works in positive ways as far as the outworking of grace and good works.  :)





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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:21/05/2010 4:43 AM)

Yes, I believe the bible is the word of god.

It actually seems strange not to believe so because from my perspective it's an obvious thing. I've experienced enough to discover that there's more to the universe than the physical side that we're used to touching and feeling. I don't see the problem with accepting that Jesus did return in 70 AD and that we're living in the new age, and have been for a couple of thousand years. It's hardly ducking and weaving to state the obvious conclusion that prophesy was fulfilled when Jesus said it would be.

If you're worried that there weren't actual angels and trumpets then take a look at some of the writings of Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus document the fulfillment of things during that great and terrible time. Angels and trumpets are listed among the things seen and heard. The huge events of 70AD are swept under the carpet nowadays, it seems.

If I can quote:

It has been recorded. See all the quotes from Josephus, Eusebius, and Tacitus, and Yosippon that we have listed below in answer to the question on 1 Thess. 4:16-18. The problem is, no one reads history with spiritual discernment. We are making the same mistake the Jews did. They were looking for a physical king and materialistic kingdom. They missed the spiritual kingdom Christ established. People today are missing the spiritual kingdom for exactly the same reason: they are looking for a physical paradise and fleshly, materialistic fulfillments. The kingdom is here now, we just need to open our eyes and realize it.    -Edward E. Stevens

And thank you, I believe my navigation of the Bible does surely bring me 'grace' and 'good works', and I certainly didn't pop in to condemn and judge. I believe we all have the midichlorians to get us through to the next life, even if it takes the next life to convince some. You were puzzled as to the reason why Jesus said he'd return 'soon', and I am happy to share my understanding of it. There's much documentation that aligns with the destruction of Jerusalem as Armageddon, and as you can see, it's fairly nonsensical to think otherwise. Jesus returned and conquered sin. Jesus conquered the REIGN of sin over us, not the EXISTENCE of sin.

The world still groans, but it's early days yet.

“I personally agree with the great Presbyterian theologian B. B. Warfield, who held that we are still living in the early Church, with thousands of years ahead of us. I expect future generations will be better able to answer some of these questions than I am.“ [Biblical Horizons Occasional Papers No.4, page 16]

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:25/05/2010 6:42 PM)


I was thinking this morning and I would like some clarification on the following from our Preterist friends on here:
 
1. Which of those standing there (that wouldn't taste death) witnessed that invisible return of Jesus in AD 70? Can one witness an invisible event anyway?

2. And why did none of them (or anyone else) make mention of this in later Gospels, Epistles (Biblical writings)? Surely an important even such as this would be mentioned if it was fulfilled.

3. You said there were some references to angels and trumpets around the fall of Jerusalem in non-Christian writings of the time. Could you provide those or at least references for us to look up?

3.5. And did any of these texts mention Jesus or someone that could have been Jesus? After all, his presence was the real crux no?

Thanks.



(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 25/05/2010 11:26 PM)
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:28/05/2010 7:20 AM)



Anyone?


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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:28/05/2010 7:36 AM)

Troy, haven't found out as yet. Hope this weekend
Ralph.
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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:26/06/2010 6:22 AM)

 “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.”

How is it possible that Paul can tell the Corinthians that “we” shall not all sleep if every one of them, including Paul, is now dead? The first thing to come to grips with when reading the New Testament is that the writers wrote actual letters to actual churches in the first century. This may seem an obvious thing to say, but you will soon see why it is important to bring the audience relevance principle to the forefront of your mind when studying the Scriptures.


AFK

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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:26/06/2010 6:28 AM)

 THE APOSTLES AND TIME REFERENCES

What about the apostles? Were they as clear as Jesus in teaching the impending coming of Jesus within the lifetime of the people He was talking to while He was on earth? Let’s take a look at just a few of the time texts that the apostles used. The audience relevance principle must be kept in mind as the Scriptures are read. Important words significant to audience relevance and time will be placed in italics:

1Cor 10:11 “Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.”

Philippians 4:5: “Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.”

1 Thessalonians 5:23: “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Thess 1:6-7 “6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire…”

I tim 6:13-14 “13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ … 18Instruct them [Timothy's church] to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.”

Of course, Paul has already encouraged Timothy about the life to come in 4:8:

“…godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life about to come.”

Not my words; the full article can be found at:

http://fullpreterism.com/alanbondar/will-jesus-ever-come-again/

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:26/06/2010 6:42 AM)

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 “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.”

How is it possible that Paul can tell the Corinthians that “we” shall not all sleep if every one of them, including Paul, is now dead? The first thing to come to grips with when reading the New Testament is that the writers wrote actual letters to actual churches in the first century. This may seem an obvious thing to say, but you will soon see why it is important to bring the audience relevance principle to the forefront of your mind when studying the Scriptures.


AFK


One has to come to the understanding of what is the Kingdom of God.. or the realm of God.. Paul spoke quite extensively in Romans of the "now" and the "not yet"when it comes to understanding the terminology of "Kingdom of God". Unfortunately it takes a genuine spiritual conversion to take place within a man or a woman within their "inner" person to understand and know the difference.. . Hence any effort on the part of a genuinely converted person to explain to a non converted person would be  like taking a blind person for a scenic tour of central Australia to see Ayes Rock. The blind person is incapable of appreciating the grandeur and awe of Ayes Rock simply because without their eyes functioning they cannot see Ayes Rock for themselves. The same applies when it comes to understanding the difference between the "now" and the "not yet" if the inner eyes of the human spirit is not enlightened through conversion the concept of the "now" and "not yet" is untenable.

And note that genuine conversion can only occur through the Divine Theophanic encounter.

guest also.

 
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:26/06/2010 9:21 PM)

Reply to Guest

 “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.”

How is it possible that Paul can tell the Corinthians that “we” shall not all sleep if every one of them, including Paul, is now dead? The first thing to come to grips with when reading the New Testament is that the writers wrote actual letters to actual churches in the first century. This may seem an obvious thing to say, but you will soon see why it is important to bring the audience relevance principle to the forefront of your mind when studying the Scriptures.


AFK


I'm not quite sure of your point. I don't mean that patronisingly, I'm just not sure of what you're trying to get at.

Paul actually believed Jesus would return in the lifetimes of himself and his intended audience for this epistle. Yes, I agree. He sure did.

But none of that answers my questions above to Ralph (see post 21#). What are the Preterist answers to my questions? I really am all ears.



(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 26/06/2010 10:05 PM)
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:26/06/2010 9:43 PM)


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One has to come to the understanding of what is the Kingdom of God.. or the realm of God.. Paul spoke quite extensively in Romans of the "now" and the "not yet"when it comes to understanding the terminology of "Kingdom of God".

Believe it or not, I am quite aware of this distinction drawn by some Theologians. Besides all my bad press, I was quite well read as a Christian. If my memory serves me correctly, this was a major thrust of A Theology of the New Testament by G.E. Ladd, which I enjoyed immensely at the time I read it (somewhere in 1996-98). I say that to let you know that I do get it. I don't believe it, but I get it.

Unfortunately it takes a genuine spiritual conversion to take place within a man or a woman within their "inner" person to understand and know the difference.. .

Well, actually, now you're being patronising because I do get it.
The concept is relatively simple. I don't believe it requires some magic fairy dust to comprehend. In fact, you sound more Gnostic in saying that than Orthodox. According to your faith, the Holy Spirit may bring faith and understanding, but Christianity is supposedly not a mystery religion.


Hence any effort on the part of a genuinely converted person to explain to a non converted person would be  like taking a blind person for a scenic tour of central Australia to see Ayes Rock. The blind person is incapable of appreciating the grandeur and awe of Ayes Rock simply because without their eyes functioning they cannot see Ayes Rock for themselves.

For what it's worth, the Mormons, JWs, The Family and Revivalists would say exactly the same thing about people who reject their tenets. So you're actually placing yourself on the side of the cultic (and even Gnostic) world view when you say things like that.

In fact, your argument here is
ad hominem against me.

The same applies when it comes to understanding the difference between the "now" and the "not yet" if the inner eyes of the human spirit is not enlightened through conversion the concept of the "now" and "not yet" is untenable.

Bullsh*t. Would you like me to summarise this concept for you to prove to you that I get it?

To say I don't believe in the concept and reject your claim that it explains the inconsistencies of the NT authors is not the same as not comprehending or understanding your argument.

And note that genuine conversion can only occur through the Divine Theophanic encounter.

Hmmmm...  Well my Gnostic friend, what about me then? Are you saying I was never truly converted or do you say I was once found but now am lost?





(Message edited by Te Luo Yi On 26/06/2010 9:51 PM)
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:27/06/2010 8:19 AM)

My reply to first post



Is that you Luke?


(Message edited by Uncoolman On 27/06/2010 8:52 AM)
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Reply To Te%20Luo%20Yi
(Date Posted:27/06/2010 2:46 PM)

Reply to Te Luo Yi







Have a meet up with the Person of the Holy Spirit - he alone can set you straight .... very quickly !!! and very smartly

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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:28/06/2010 2:37 AM)

Reply to Guest

Have a meet up with the Person of the Holy Spirit - he alone can set you straight .... very quickly !!! and very smartly


Righty-o then!

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Reply To Te%20Luo%20Yi
(Date Posted:28/06/2010 7:00 PM)


I got this email today. It relates to this topic:


Hi, Ed Babinski here, author of the "The Lowdown on God's Showdown."

If you're interested in that topic please also see Chapter 12 of a new book, The Christian Delusion.

The chapter addresses the question of Jesus, whether or not he as an apocalyptic prophet, and adds to what I wrote in "The Lowdown . . . " 

You might even be able to read much of the chapter for free online via the google books "Look Inside" feature.
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Delusion-Why-Faith-Fails/dp/1616141689/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277750656&sr=8-1#noop

If you wish to contact me, my email is leonardo3@msn.com

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:28/06/2010 11:58 PM)

My reply to first post

I’m glad that you posted these because the fact that you did is telling me that you are looking for answers and truth. The answer to this in fact is very simple, but it does require faith. There is absolutely no problem or any contradictions in these texts if read them faithfully. These texts and many other became problematic when we start to use human logic… instead of faith, praying and searching answers from God and scripture. Before giving answer let first ask few questions.

 

 By reading Matthew 24:30-34 we can understand it as that Jesus is talking about that generation or about some further generation. Probably some Christians of that time believed that he is talking about that generation. So is that what Jesus would want them to think? Answer is that He wants us to live our lives like he is coming tomorrow. Why? So we can be saved. Because no one except God knows when the end will come Jesus wants us to be ready always. Thinking that he will come soon, surly helps to be better Christian as we can see from following text what result of thinking opposite is:

 

Lk.12;42-46. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the

menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

the lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he

is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

 

 So did Jesus lie for their own good? Surely He did not! Others may suggest that he came, but invisibly or others that he made a mistake because he was human etc. etc. . . . Neither is true. It is true that only One true God – Father knows when the end will come (Mark 13;32.) and definitely it will not be secret. Also Jesus surely knew that his coming will be in distant future and we could see this by studying prophecies in Daniel - I will not go into that now.

 

From Matthew 16:27-28 we clearly see that he is talking to his disciples, so what did our Lord thought by that?

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

 

What could be the answer to this “controversy”? I did tell you that it requires faith! Please read again Jesus’ words!!!

Yes I believe that some of them who were standing there are still alive! I know how this sounds but lets think for a moment. Christians believe that first people lived long lives, some of them well into 900. Also we believe that dead believers will resurrect and live eternal life. So how much bigger is eternal compared to few thousands years? God who is capable to resurrect people and give them eternal life is surely capable to make someone live a few thousand!

 

John 21;20. Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which

leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 

Although in further text John is saying that Jesus didn’t said should not die, definitely text doesn’t close that possibility and that was what others believed.

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet

Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is

that to thee?

 

So now the question is why Jesus would say something like that just like that, we know that his words always mean something, and when we combine this words with texts in Mathew we have the answer to our “controversy” – there is not any!

 

If apostles believed in this why we shouldn’t?

Jesus was saying the truth – He is the Truth!

Rev. 22:12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

If we talk about evolution, few thousands years would be consider as “quick”, actually more like almost nothing, but when we talk about faith suddenly we can’t use same rules?

He is coming quickly!

God Bless all!

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 6:19 AM)

My reply to your post, Viesnik

 

These texts and many other became problematic when we start to use human logic… instead of faith,

 

Why should I use faith instead of logic? Humans use the power of brain – logic! If you say to me: “Tomorrow the Moon will fall on to the Earth, but I know how to be saved, just give me your money” – will you use your faith or logic?

 

By reading Matthew 24:30-34 we can understand it as that Jesus is talking about that generation or about some further generation.

So you say no one really knows what he was talking about? How is this book The words of God ?

 

Probably some Christians of that time believed that he is talking about that generation.

Really it Is not nice to mislead ANYONE in this words of God book!

 

So is that what Jesus would want them to think? Answer is that He wants us to live our lives like he is coming tomorrow. Why? So we can be saved. Because no one except God knows when the end will come Jesus wants us to be ready always.

Isn’t Jesus the GOD-son? Why mislead us?

 

Thinking that he will come soon, surly helps to be better Christian as we can see from following text what result of thinking opposite is:

I think it looks more like a LIE!

 

Lk.12;42-46. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

the lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So we are being compared to the naughty servants(humans) who are misbehaving when our boss- God is away, but we need to behave because he can come any day. Blah! God is omniscient and omnipresent! Is’n he?  Not a good comparison. Does not make sense.

 

 So did Jesus lie for their own good? Surely He did not!

So he did lie? For God’s good? Please express yourself more clearly.

 

Others may suggest that he came, but invisibly or others that he made a mistake because he was human etc. etc. . . . Neither is true. It is true that only One true God – Father knows when the end will come (Mark 13;32.) and definitely it will not be secret.

Oh, yes, but even Son of God does not know this!

 

Also Jesus surely knew that his coming will be in distant future  

These are just verses of a drunken monk! Just read this from the beginning to end! It looks like Jesus is talking about himself: "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27

 Stop! The son of man or the son of God? Is it both?


And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens
. 28 So Jesus was telling us the heavens have an end? Also he was telling the Earth has en end? This contradicts a scientific notion that Cosmos is endless, and the common knowledge that the Earth is a globe, but corresponds with other Bible stories that sky is a firmament and the Earth is flat ( it is 21 century outside, for goodness sake).

 

From Matthew 16:27-28 we clearly see that he is talking to his disciples, so what did our Lord thought by that?

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. What could be the answer to this “controversy”? I did tell you that it requires faith! Please read again Jesus’ words!!!

 

Exactly! NO matter how many times you read it – it stays a controversy!

Why should we have faith in this but not in Zeus? Allah by the way promises to give each man 18 virgins. Much more fun! What Jesus promises to us in heaven that we should have faith in him?

 

Yes I believe that some of them who were standing there are still alive! I know how this sounds but lets think for a moment. Christians believe that first people lived long lives, some of them well into 900.

Exactly – believe. There is no scientific proof.

 

Also we believe that dead believers will resurrect and live eternal life. So how much bigger is eternal compared to few thousands years? God who is capable to resurrect people and give them eternal life is surely capable to make someone live a few thousand!

Do you still believe in Tooth Fairy?

No?

Why not?

She does not promise eternal life?

  

So now the question is why Jesus would say something like that just like that, we know that his words always mean something, and when we combine this words with texts in Mathew we have the answer to our “controversy” – there is not any!

 

If apostles believed in this why we shouldn’t?

I can ask same – why should we? This is ancient Jewish folklore.

Because you believe in something does not mean others should believe it. It is very naïve.

Ask yourself – why do you believe in Jesus but not in Allah or Zeus or Budda?

 

Jesus was saying the truth – He is the Truth!

Do you now that sounds just like Islam, what they claim to be the TRUTH?

What makes you more truthful than them?

 

Rev. 22:12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

If we talk about evolution, few thousands years would be consider as “quick”, actually more like almost nothing, but when we talk about faith suddenly we can’t use same rules?

He is coming quickly!

God Bless all!

 

We have been waiting since the times of pharaohs, when Jews started this religion.

Revival Fellowship does not heal any disease, but [medical] science does!

The Bible says there is end of the Earth and there is end of the Heaven. We know there is not.

There are too many controversies, why should we believe without using our brain capabilites?

We know now that Bible mistaken, why should we trust?

Wishing good health, love and happiness to everyone!

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Reply To vjesnik
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 6:34 AM)

Reply to vjesnik


Thanks for posting. I appreciate the effort you have gone to.

With full sincerity though, I have to say that you really didn't answer any of my questions and the 'points' you made were actually quite hollow. I don't feel swayed by your arguments, especially those that require a 'leap of faith'.

But thanks for trying.  :)


Worriedmum, I liked your thoughts by the way.  
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 7:32 PM)

My reply to worriedmum

We all have free will and free choice what to believe and although I would like all to believe I’m certainly not forcing you, so I don’t understand your attack. My reply was to the asked question. Although most comments are for parts of my post that are taken out of context I will answer some of your questions.

 

Why should I use faith instead of logic? Humans use the power of brain – logic!

I’m for pure logic but the logic I was referring to at the beginning was what I call human logic – proud logic, logic prone to twist things way it wants them to sound, not real logic.

If you say to me: “Tomorrow the Moon will fall on to the Earth, but I know how to be saved, just give me your money” – will you use your faith or logic?

Yes I would use faith, because the Bible tells me that will not happen and I believe it.

 

Next comments are for texts taken out of context so no comment.

 

Isn’t Jesus the GOD-son? Why mislead us?

Bible is clear on this, Jesus is the Son of God, God the Father is different person.

 

I think it looks more like a LIE!

This part is talking about Christians, not you, but you have right to your own opinion.

 

So he did lie? For God’s good? Please express yourself more clearly.

Answer to that is further in that post, again taking something out of context and jumping to conclusion.

 

Oh, yes, but even Son of God does not know this!

You got this absolutely right! Mark 13;32. However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

 

The son of man or the son of God? Is it both?

Yes, both titles are used for Jesus in the Bible.

 

And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. 28 So Jesus was telling us the heavens have an end? Also he was telling the Earth has en end? This contradicts a scientific notion that Cosmos is endless, and the common knowledge that the Earth is a globe, but corresponds with other Bible stories that sky is a firmament and the Earth is flat ( it is 21 century outside, for goodness sake).

 

By using simplest logic we can figure it out that it is figurative speech meaning from all earth.

Professor Joseph Silk - Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom answered to question: Is the Universe finite or infinite?
“We don't know”.

If you think you know better you can contact him and many other scientists and share your knowledge! J

Isaiah 40;22. It is he who sits above the circle of the earth… Bible says it is round; people’s idea was flat earth.

 

Exactly! NO matter how many times you read it – it stays a controversy!

Not if you use logic. The Bible is religious book. So with this in mind if those texts are taken without twisting they don’t contradict. Whether you want to believe them or not is another thing but it’s not called controversy.

 

Why should we have faith in this but not in Zeus? Because of evidence and pure logic.

 

Allah by the way promises to give each man 18 virgins. Much more fun! I don’t know where you got this, but things like that can’t be found in Quran so again your statement is not true.

What Jesus promises to us in heaven that we should have faith in him? Eternal life!

 

Exactly – believe. There is no scientific proof. There is no evidence against it, and surprisingly there are some scientific evidence that support this.

 

Because you believe in something does not mean others should believe it. It is very naïve.

 

I agree with that and my intention was not that. My message was to answer those who had concerns and questions about those texts. Why would you as unbeliever be concerned about them, obviously you have strong opinion about them so faith call wasn’t directed to you and I don’t know why you understood it that way?

 

We have been waiting since the times of pharaohs, when Jews started this religion. That is long wait but why should I believe that you are that old? J

                                           

Revival Fellowship does not heal any disease, I’m not member of any “revival fellowships”.

There are many Christians who have been healed by God.

 

There are too many controversies, why should we believe without using our brain capabilites?

I don’t agree that there are controversies, rather there are some things that we don’t understand but also how many things there is that science doesn’t understand, and yes we should absolutely use our brain capabilities.

 

We know now that Bible mistaken, why should we trust? Actually it is little bit opposite, bible is attacked for long time but time after time attackers are proved wrong. I don’t think that you are really interested in this but if you really seeking the truth, you can find a lot of evidence for this.

 

I see that you didn’t read my post very carefully, and in your reply you took lot of parts out of contexts and also it’s full of incorrect claims. I wish you read it more carefully. All that says to me is that probably you had some bad experiences with religion, but that is not evidence that bible is wrong. 

It is very sad that some people use religion for their own gains. But we can see from Jesus’ example what real Christianity is about.  So we shouldn’t be angry with God because of people’s mistakes.

 

God bless.

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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 7:35 PM)

My reply to Te Luo Yi  

 

Glad that you appreciate this, but don’t agree that question is not answered. Remember that bible is religious book you can’t delete faith from it. You can choose to believe or not.

Jesus said that some of them will be alive when he comes. You can believe it or not that is one thing, but there is no controversy. Yes I know that I can’t prove scientifically that some of them are alive but neither can you prove scientifically that they are not. If we talk about real science not SF, to do that you should find bones of all of them who were there when Jesus said those words and prove that they are their bones undoubtedly, so with this we can go in a circle…

Also it can be easily proved from the bible that Jesus knows that his coming will be well into future so He knew what he was saying.

So again, it’s not a question of controversy but rather a question of faith, and we are all free to choose what we believe. And another thing is that the bible is a religious book and asking to put faith away when studying it is like asking to solve a mathematical equation with out using math.

God bless.
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 7:56 PM)

"Yes I believe that some of them who were standing there are still alive! I know how this sounds but lets think for a moment. Christians believe that first people lived long lives, some of them well into 900. Also we believe that dead believers will resurrect and live eternal life. So how much bigger iseternal compared to few thousands years? God who is capable to resurrect people and give them eternal life is surely capable to make someone live a few thousand!"


I'm amazed at the antics some Christians come up with to justify their beliefs. Do they teach this at your church, or is it your own crackpot theory? Highlander... vampires... immortal men walking around us? Just hanging around secretly for the last 2000 years so that this 'prophesy' remains true, even though NOBODY knows of their existence, thereby making the prophesy look like a crock anyway. It reminds me of the Christians who say that the dinosaurs were lizards that were allowed to keep growing in the perfect 'Eden' times. Cuckoo, I'm afraid.



(Message edited by MothandRust On 29/06/2010 8:12 PM)
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 9:37 PM)

Not here to argue we are discussing, believe or not, your free choice.

Question was asked, answer given. Please don’t twist it.

Reptiles do grow all their lives in this time too, if really interested in that you could check it any time but you didn’t. What does that tell?

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MothandRust
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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 9:43 PM)

 So... all the reptiles were normal sized lizards that grew into dinosaurs? Is that what you're saying?

Have you written a book yet with all the crazy answers to everything?

Please, do tell us more.
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Reply To vjesnik
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 10:01 PM)

Reply to vjesnik
 

Glad that you appreciate this, but don’t agree that question is not answered. Remember that bible is religious book you can’t delete faith from it. You can choose to believe or not.


Yes, it is faith that allows you to believe your assertions and faith that allows the Mormons to believe theirs. They believe that two of the Apostles are still wandering the Earth. I think they say one of them is the Apostle John. I don't recall.


So again, it’s not a question of controversy but rather a question of faith, and we are all free to choose what we believe. And another thing is that the bible is a religious book and asking to put faith away when studying it is like asking to solve a mathematical equation with out using math.


Yes, and you're free to believe whatever you wish. In spite of the supposed left-wing, liberal agenda, it's still a free country.  ;P



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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 11:32 PM)

Many people in this world want the world to come to an end.
 And people since before Christ have been predicting this end.
But like these simple examples of 10 Most Stupid Predictions and Statements in History
 http://urbantitan.com/10-most-stupid-predictions-and-statemants-in-history
People will always be wrong about a lot of things.
I just hope they are wrong this years and the next and in 2012.
 And I ask the real powers that be in the world to stop trying to being the world to and end.
The best thing about dieing is everyone has to. Even  those who believe themselves to be above it.
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http://www.bullshithistory.com/2010/05/index.html
(Date Posted:29/06/2010 11:56 PM)

 I believe this to be the true history instead of the bible's version

The first official post of this website is dedicate to the very word bullshit. How did it mean what it means today? How did we get here with the word "bullshit?"

For the answer, let us travel back a few thousand years to the time of sandals, pharaohs, and of the first known labor organizer in history: Moses. Much is made in the Bible of Moses' exploits of leading the Jews out of Egypt. However, many do not realize that the Jews weren't necessarily freed but released from their contract after months of exhaustive negotiations and third-party Greek arbitration between Ramesses II and the  Jewish workers union led by Moses. However, that story is for another day.

Let us fast forward to the hillside of Mt. Sinai. There is a lot of truth the story as written in the Bible. Yes, God did call Moses up to the mountain. However it was to discuss humanity and what should constitute entry into the kingdom of heaven. Moses' natural competitiveness and negotiation streak fell in. A causal conversation between two friends turned into heated negotiations. After 40 days and nights of exhaustive negotiation between Moses and God, they came together on a ten-point agreement.  These became known as the ten commandments.

Both sides got some of what they wanted. God wanted people to continue to worship him as the supreme being in the universe with commandment "I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me." "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God"  was set in place to protect the trademarks, imaging and various copyrights of God. Even back then, the man upstairs was worried about preserving his image.

Moses was happy with what he got. He wanted to ward off people from staring at and hitting on Ms. Moses who was quite a lookers with a fantastic ba dunk-a-dunk. Hence the redundant commandments "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife."

After this exhaustive negotiations, Moses came down from the mountain to join the Israelite.  Moses had advised them to use their time wisely learning skills like sewing, fishing, basket-weaving, and other things. They were supposed to learn this not only for survival. Instead, they got drunk and made a calf out of beer cans and wine glasses which were made out of gold. Apparently they didn't bring the cattle along with them from Egypt and were lusting for a juicy steak.

Oddly enough, both God and Moses didn't believe that the golden calf broke the commandment of "You shall not make for yourself an idol." This commandments was actually a preemptive strike against potential American Idol contestants. Even at that time, both God and Moses realize the danger and pain of seeing effeminate former choir guys and girls who think hotness equals talent getting major TV air time.

However, Moses was angry that the Israelite pissed away a month and a half on partying instead of earning their badges.  Moses screamed at his followers, "What the hell? I leave for a month and you guys fail to take responsibility. I should of left you with the pharaohs with you lower than average wages, full health care coverage and 50/50 shared pension plan! The only productive thing that you guys did was make this golden calf and even this bull is complete shit!"

At this, the collective crowd of the Israelites began laughing hysterically after a brief moment of silence. What they found funny, who knows? Perhaps it was the result of drinking like a college pledge for forty days? Perhaps it was idea of their crudely made calf coming to life and taking a golden deuce caused a few to chuckle? Perhaps it was because Adam Goldstein let one rip in the silence that followed Moses proclamation that made some lose their marbles? Any way you cut it, the drunken masses were in no mood to be lectured.

Moses looked at his drunken masses with disgust and said to himself, "Hell, if I can't beat them, join them." Moses joined the party, the two granite slabs in hand. Others jokingly mocked him by repeating back to him that 'this bull is shit maaannnnn...." which eventually got shortened to the word "bullshit." Despite being a subject of ridicule, Moses decided to used this to his advantage. He made up a drinking game named "bullshit" which is a variation on the modern version only instead of cards, each commandment was used to test the Isrealites attainment of these basic rules set up by God and Moses. It was during one of these games where Moses passed out, only to wake up to find out that he broken the two tablets by falling face first.

Yet even with all the set backs, it was a good time had by all. Even by Moses who was self described  'hard-ass" enjoyed himself. Everyone, including God, was glad to see him let his guard down a little bit. Now if he could only lead orientation and proper navigation.

... and you wonder why they wandered around the desert for so long.

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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:30/06/2010 12:42 AM)

Just one question. Which scource did you get this info from or is it just your world view?

Curious



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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:30/06/2010 10:26 AM)

My reply to worriedmum

We all have free will and free choice what to believe

Where in the Bible did you read this? This is not a choice given to us by Jesus of the Bible, because, I quote; only those who have faith will be saved in the end of the world. “Wallet or your life!” Great choice indeed! The notion of free will came into the theology in the 17the century at the period of Enlightenment together with ancient Greek philosophy which was closed to the western world for a centuries. Something for you to read about, don’t be mislead by your ignorant pastors.  

 

 

and although I would like all to believe I’m certainly not forcing you,

 

Why on Earth do you care? What if everyone you talk to believes suddenly? There won’t be enough room in Heaven for everyone! Do you know actually how many places are set aside for us in heaven?

 

so I don’t understand your attack.

Oh, Dear! What do you call an attack? Next thing you will do is say that I am persecuting you? Because you can’t see me nodding and agreeing with… hm… bull… that you are saying, that does not mean that I hate you or wish you something bad. Life is not all pink roses, sometimes we have to debate and discuss, and I will point where you have lost your sense of logic. Trust me- I will shut up when I stop to care about you.

 

My reply was to the asked question. Although most comments are for parts of my post that are taken out of context I will answer some of your questions.

 

I’m for pure logic but the logic I was referring to at the beginning was what I call human logic – proud logic, logic prone to twist things way it wants them to sound, not real logic.

So you actually here saying people here are not able to use their PURE LOGIC because you can’t, because your logic is proud logic and twists things way you want them to sound? OK, I get it now. I am sorry, but I thing nothing is wrong with my logic. So I prefer to use it instead of faith.  

 

Yes I would use faith, because the Bible tells me that will not happen and I believe it.

But the Bible says the stars will fall onto the Earth/ why not the Moon? Do you believe everything the Bible says to the last word?

The Bible never said or predicted that man will fly into space. Do you think this has never happened? If the Bible never said that Moon will fall onto the Earth this does not mean this can’t happen. Because stars apparently will (well I don’t believe it, of course).

 

Next comments are for texts taken out of context so no comment.

Yes, sure! This is what usually guys from RF churches say when they don’t have anything to say. How is that all taken out of context? Pleas explain to me.

 

Isn’t Jesus the GOD-son? Why mislead us?

Bible is clear on this, Jesus is the Son of God, God the Father is different person.

So Jesus is son of god, but god the father is a person? Are there two different gods then or two different persons?

 

The son of man or the son of God? Is it both?

Yes, both titles are used for Jesus in the Bible.

How can it be both?

 

And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. 28 So Jesus was telling us the heavens have an end? Also he was telling the Earth has en end? This contradicts a scientific notion that Cosmos is endless, and the common knowledge that the Earth is a globe, but corresponds with other Bible stories that sky is a firmament and the Earth is flat ( it is 21 century outside, for goodness sake).

 

By using simplest logic we can figure it out that it is figurative speech meaning from all earth.

You are saying the Bible uses figurative speech in this case but not in any other case?  How do you know when you use your simplest logic or PURE logic and how do you know that it has not been twisted? What is your reality check ?

People hundred years ago actually believed this literally, you know. Have you ever learned at school about Copernicus?

Don’t read wikipedia anymore -  it is occupied by creationists. Read the Flat Earth Society, these people still think the Earth is flat and they will tell you why Because the Bible says so. http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=65

 

Professor Joseph Silk - Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford, United Kingdom answered to question: Is the Universe finite or infinite?
“We don't know”.

If you think you know better you can contact him and many other scientists and share your knowledge! J

I would not trust this jewish physicist. i talked to god about this and she said the universe is "infinitely finite and finitely infinite". so i said, ya know god, nothin for nothin ... ;-)

 

 

 

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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:30/06/2010 10:34 AM)

Isaiah 40;22. It is he who sits above the circle of the earth… Bible says it is round; people’s idea was flat earth.

 

We know that the Earth is not a CIRCLE! It a ball or a globe! Circle is flat. Have you studied any geometry at school? If not, you might want to catch up so you pastors don’t get you red-handed. By the way we dint even know when it was added to the Bible, as you know in the middle ages it was still rewritten by the monks, not printed. In the middle ages people sill believed it was square.

 

Exactly! NO matter how many times you read it – it stays a controversy!

Not if you use logic.

Oh, logic again! Which one now?

The Bible is religious book. So with this in mind if those texts are taken without twisting they don’t contradict.

Hmmm … please explain. I did not twist anything.

 

Whether you want to believe them or not is another thing but it’s not called controversy.

It is not a controversy, it is ancient Jewish folklore. I would love to believe in God, you know, but all this does not make any sense.

 

Why should we have faith in this but not in Zeus? Because of evidence and pure logic.

 

Why this discrimination? Faith for the ancient Jewish folklore but evidence and logic for ancient Greek folklore?

 

 

Allah by the way promises to give each man 18 virgins. Much more fun! I don’t know where you got this, but things like that can’t be found in Quran so again your statement is not true.

Have you read the whole Quran?

 

What Jesus promises to us in heaven that we should have faith in him? Eternal life!

I know… I know… and the Tooth Fairy does not.

 

Exactly – believe. There is no scientific proof. There is no evidence against it, and surprisingly there are some scientific evidence that support this.

We have evidence now that life could appear on Earth without any superpower. We did not need god to give the planet life. I think this is good enough evidence.

 

I agree with that and my intention was not that. My message was to answer those who had concerns and questions about those texts. Why would you as unbeliever be concerned about them, obviously you have strong opinion about them so faith call wasn’t directed to you and I don’t know why you understood it that way?

 Because I don’t like you proselytising.

 

There are many Christians who have been healed by God.

Can you please name all those many Christians and diseases, don’t bother mentioning headache or toothache, and then those who have not been healed by God. Why do those Christians still go to DOCTORS? Have you ever asked yourself?

Why God never heals amputees?

 

Actually it is little bit opposite, bible is attacked for long time but time after time attackers are proved wrong.

 

Actually less and less people in the world believe in God Jesus or whoever, because science is proving it wrong. First they proved the Earth is running around the Sun, not the other way around, they proved the Earth is a globe, then they found many different wonderful things to prove that God did not create the worlds in 6 days, because life could appear in Earth,

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

and the Bible is nothing more then Jewish folklore so you are not together with the progressive humanity, you are behind at least 100 years.

 

I see that you didn’t read my post very carefully, and in your reply you took lot of parts out of contexts and also it’s full of incorrect claims.

 

Can you please be more specific? I did not see that.

 

But we can see from Jesus’ example what real Christianity is about. 

 

Jesus had drinks of wine at the last supper definitely, and his apostles liked to get drunk. The Bible says so. You should read the Bible more carefully. This is also real Christianity.

 

So we shouldn’t be angry with God because of people’s mistakes.

 

I can’t be angry with something which does not exist, but those people who created the Revivalism should be brought to justice for years  of abuse and brainwashing people.

 

God bless.

 

Good health to you too.

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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:30/06/2010 10:37 AM)

sorry, people, forgot to log in for the last two posts
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RE:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:02/07/2010 7:02 AM)

Replay to worriedmum

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/


People used ready ingredients to make RNA – intelligence used.

DNA or RNA by themselves would not constitute life, since it’s not enough just to join the bases (‘letters’) together, but the sequence must be meaningful and that require intelligence.

So that’s proving that to do that intelligence is needed.

To believe that from nothing became something, than that something that was once nothing became more complex something by chance, that than became DNA or RNA by chance, that by chance put it self in correct sequence and bingo life was created from nothing, require a LOT OF FAITH! :)

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Re:Jesus is coming back! Quick, look busy!
(Date Posted:02/07/2010 7:36 AM)

vjesnik, your argument reduces to the following:

DNA is not life nor is RNA.

A random combination of DNA and RNA is not life either.

Therefore, life can only be constructed by an intelligent being.


Perhaps you are taking an adventurous step outside of your area of expertise?

 

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Reply To vjesnik
(Date Posted:03/07/2010 5:10 AM)

Reply to vjesnik

Replay to worriedmum

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/


People used ready ingredients to make RNA – intelligence used.

DNA or RNA by themselves would not constitute life, since it’s not enough just to join the bases (‘letters’) together, but the sequence must be meaningful and that require intelligence.

So that’s proving that to do that intelligence is needed.

To believe that from nothing became something, than that something that was once nothing became more complex something by chance, that than became DNA or RNA by chance, that by chance put it self in correct sequence and bingo life was created from nothing, require a LOT OF FAITH! :)


When will you start to educate yourself? Listen to your teachers at school instead of your ignorant pastors. This is not how it all works. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
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