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Forum for ex-members of Revival Churches
Title: Gay Marriages
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(Date Posted:03/12/2011 12:01 AM)
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.. Sadly we learned today of the ALP position of allowing Gay Marriages. One of my well meaning acquaintances made this statement on his facebook page:

  " Australia is NOT a same sex marriage nation but a nation who honors the Biblical truths of marriage; the way God intended it to be. Thats what Im speaking into my atmosphere. Watch your words Australia. "


  ....  But  where is "speaking into my atmosphere" to be found in the Bible ??? Hmm I don't know ?? maybe Ian is right about pentes going a bit loopy.

blessings all

Eric

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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:03/12/2011 3:31 AM)

There was mention of a news item recently to the effect that a lesbian couple bringing up a boy child that the boy wanted to have his penis removed to be just like his “Parents”
There is some talk of allowing this to take place and are administering hormone treatment to effect change to female.
What sort of a role model is this for kids that same sex marriages are allowed?

Poor kids won’t know which way to turn when they grow up (pun intended)



(Message edited by Biblianut On 08/12/2011 11:54 PM)
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Didaktikon
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:03/12/2011 11:10 PM)

Gents,

And were you expecting something different from the Gillard government?! C'mon, the socio-political agenda is largely set by Bob Brown, one or two 'Independents' and the Labour left; consequently, I wasn't in the least surprised.

Blessings,

Ian

(Message edited by Didaktikon On 03/12/2011 11:12 PM)
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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/12/2011 12:04 AM)

Hi Ian,

 

Does not surprise me either, this Government doesn’t seem to be answerable to any one these days
they just go ahead and get what they want no matter the right or wrong of it.

 

I did my own small survey here in Geelong asking people whether they approved of same sex marriage. Out of the eighty I asked,
only four agreed and five didn’t care.

 

Where is the 57% in favour of it, according to these lobbyists?

 

I know it may not be much of an indication but one would have thought a higher number for it out of
the eighty.

Maybe I should ask in other Cities and Towns.

 

Ralph.



(Message edited by Biblianut On 04/12/2011 12:09 AM)
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/12/2011 1:01 AM)

Ralph, what was your reason for conducting this survey?  How did you frame the question?  And how did you choose/find the demographic in which to conduct your survey?

Dog.
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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/12/2011 3:26 AM)

Hi Dog

 

Ralph, what was your reason for conducting this survey? Just a personal exercise out of my own interest 

 

How did you frame the question? In the light of the publicity on the subject I just ask the question; “How do you feel about Gay marriage?”  

 

And how did you choose/find the demographic in which to conduct your survey? I asked people from all walks, on the streets and in the cafés

 

Not such a big deal, hey?

 

Be well,

 

Ralph.

 

PS I was surprised Geelong must be pretty straight. Lol.

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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/12/2011 6:01 PM)

.... Hi Ralph,

        It would be of interest to note the FULL legal implications of the proposed amendments to the definition of marriage as the Labor/Green coalition are attempting to do. Personally my opinion is that such matters that personally affect individual Australians on such a sensitive moral area should be placed in the category of constitutional boundary which can only be amended by national referendum.


       There is the bizarre possibility that ordained clergy are at risk of  discrimination should such clergy refuse to marry two persons of the same sex. In which case what we are now entertaining is the possibility of government interference into the rights of individual Australians being allowed to practice religious observance according to their own personal conscience ... a tragic sad state this country is fast becoming.

blessings Ralph

.. Eric  


(Message edited by Mishnah On 04/12/2011 6:03 PM)
Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:08/12/2011 8:51 PM)

There have been discussions before on this forum, about homosexuality, fornication, adultery etc. (from the Churches’ POV) and a question comes to mind at what point does one actually become ‘party’ to these offences.

A conversation with an acquaintance, at a coffee shop a couple of days ago, on the current issue of ‘gay marriage’, led to him jumping out of his chair and leaving in anger.

Heaven knows, I must have hit a nerve when I suggested that homosexuality, like any thing we do, is of our own choosing and/or decision.

His reply was that one is ‘born’ homosexual and it is nobody else’s business.

Refuting this, I quoted, “that one could say then pedophiles, criminals etc are born that way” (or similar). Oops! I sure was talking to a wrong person on this subject.

 

As has been discussed, fornication etc is not such until a physical act has taken place; can two people of the same sex still have the same desires and cares, and live together in a “marriage” situation but refrain from penetration (male) and not be considered as homosexual etc.?

And of females; at what point be considered as such?

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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:08/12/2011 10:09 PM)

Ralph,

Not so much talking to the "wrong person" as with the wrong attitude! smiley6

Here's some food for thought, if you will....

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2011/12/08/non-judgement/

Amazing how many people who profess Christian faith miss Jesus' teaching of non-judgement, and yet seem to always use their belief system to judge!


Dog.
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dogmafree
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Reply To Biblianut
(Date Posted:08/12/2011 10:22 PM)

Reply to Biblianut

  can two people of the same sex still have the same desires and cares, and live together in a “marriage” situation but refrain from penetration (male) and not be considered as homosexual etc.?



Basically Ralph... I'd suggest what they do is none of our business.  Why do you feel the need to "consider" them one way or another, other than a fellow human being, like you and me?


Dog.
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Didaktikon
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:08/12/2011 10:59 PM)

Ralph,

Contrary to what Dog apparently promotes, I believe the issue is everyone's business given that the gay lobby is seeking to redefine what marriage involves. It is, then, as much a (practical) social issue as it is a (theoretical) theological one.

From a strictly practical standpoint, should the current Australian government pander to the Greens further and broaden the definition of 'marriage' to bring homosexual unions into the pale, I doubt I'd lose a wink's sleep. After all abortion on demand has been a fact of life in this country for years, so why not homosexual marriage? From a theological perspective, homosexuality is clearly numbered among Scripture's taboo acts. Therein it is described as a peversion, one that runs contrary to (a) God's plan for humankind, and (b) his established natural order. As such, homosexual marriage can never be the practice of Christians, despite the fact that it may be socially accepted (or even legal) in the wider community. The moral and ethical standards that apply to followers of Christ have always been higher than that which applies to society more generally.

Dog made a very valid point in his rejoinder to you, and I thank him for doing so. Christians often seem to be predisposed to be judging others, and then by standards that simply don't apply to non-Christians! Consider, Jesus hung out with the socially dispossessed and marginalised. He ate with prostitutes, drunkards and the ritually 'unclean' of his day. Consequently, I reckon that were he still physically walking the earth now, he'd likely as not be ministering to those the 'religious' of our time denigrate, which includes homosexuals! This begs the obvious question: why don't more of the people who claim to be following in his footsteps do the same?!

Moving on ...

As I've opined elsewhere on this forum, homosexuality involves a physical act. It's the physical act which is expressly condemned, and so homosexuality should be distinguished from homophilia. The former is sinful, the latter isn't. Practically, a homosexual can't enter into God's covenant of marriage if his/her partner is of the same sex; consequently, such a person must be prepared for a life of celibacy should he or she wish to follow Christ. In this respect a homosexual is no different to an unmarried heterosexual. When a homosexual seeks to be numbered in Christian community, his/her sexuality becomes the business of the Church just as it does for the heterosexual. Equality for all :)

Blessings,

Ian

(Message edited by Didaktikon On 08/12/2011 11:17 PM)
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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:08/12/2011 11:40 PM)

 

Dog

OK, firstly I wasn’t judging anyone. The word is quite explicit that homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers, unbelievers… will not enter the kingdom of God. I didn’t write the bible, regardless of what you and I might think the truth doesn’t change. I didn’t say anything about anyone being right or wrong, that is judging. . Everyone has a choice to believe or not to believe. Jesus teaching of ‘non-judgment’ is quite clear as is the teaching of right and wrong in God’s eyes.

 

The changing of the idea of morals in society is much more prevalent than what they were years ago and is becoming so removed from what the word of God wills for us. 

I believe we all at some stage in our walk on this earth do see “what its like” to live the world through their windows by our own experiences but no, we do not have to judge others based on our own experiences but by the word of God.

 

The chap in question chose to ‘chide’ our conversation when I touched on the point he obviously had personal issues with.

 

Basically Ralph... I'd suggest what they do is none of our business.  Why do you feel the need to "consider" them one way or another, other than a fellow human being, like you and me?I believe it is our business, when the very idea of well proven fundamentals of marriage and good morals etc that shape our society are seriously threatened by misinformed and ignorant people.



(Message edited by Biblianut On 08/12/2011 11:56 PM)
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Reply To Biblianut
(Date Posted:09/12/2011 10:09 AM)

Reply to Biblianut

 

Dog

OK, firstly I wasn’t judging anyone. The word is quite explicit that homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers, unbelievers… will not enter the kingdom of God. I didn’t write the bible, regardless of what you and I might think the truth doesn’t change. I didn’t say anything about anyone being right or wrong, that is judging. . Everyone has a choice to believe or not to believe. Jesus teaching of ‘non-judgment’ is quite clear as is the teaching of right and wrong in God’s eyes.

 


Ralph, there's something about the preoccupation that many have in referring to people as fornicators, adulterers, unbelievers etc that I find quite unfortunate.  It's as though those words define the person.  I don't think it does!  Let's take a person who has 'fornicated'.  So this person has performed an act that some would say is 'wrong' and argue that it is a sin in God's eyes.  So?  It is one act that they may have done once or a hundred times, but it is still a small part of their totality.  It does not even begin to define him/her!  Its really quite absurd to define people by their acts or preferences or habits etc, or their beliefs.  I actually find the term 'unbeliever' completely preposterous!   Its highly arrogant for someone to call another 'unbeliever' just because they don't hold to your own particular set of beliefs.  Have you forgotten the lowest common denominator?..... we are ALL less than perfect.  What's with all this splitting of straws, and carrying on about what supposed 'sins' people have or have not committed?? 

You say its not judging, but when you label people like that, you do two things.... you suggest that they are unacceptable to God based upon your perception of the person, (who's heart you don't know) and you by implication try to distance yourself from that person, as though you are morally superior (which is nonsense, since we are not 'saved by works').  This kind of discrimination is quite unhealthy, and it seems to me to indicate a lack of understanding of GRACE that is supposed to underpin the Christian faith.  When a person truly sees through the eyes of grace, the lens focuses on what connects us all, we forgive and are compassionate for each other, knowing that just as we hurt and struggle and fail and yearn, so do we all (together).  'Others' are no different from the 'sense of self' that we have of our self.  So  then, the faults of others are something we no longer see as relevent.  If we dislike or are repulsed by something in or about someone else, that is not so much their problem as it is our problem.  Time to realise that we are no better than that person, and they are just as worthy of respect and compassion and love (and forgiveness) as any other. 


Dog.


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Reply to dogmafree
(Date Posted:09/12/2011 2:59 PM)

 Yo Dog

You're being somewhat disingenuous in your references to the Xian concept of grace. I'd suggest you have a look at the following books of the bible as somewhat of a primer ... James' letter, Paul's letter to the Romans, John's first letter. (I realise of course that over the years you have been pointed to this material before.)

PS You write as if you were a Xian e.g. "we are not 'saved by works'". Is that a rhetorical device, or is that truly how you perceive yourself?

Cheers
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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:09/12/2011 5:55 PM)

Dog,

 

You seem to be portraying me as some sort of self righteous twitt. Far be it from me to think I am better than anybody else.

 

Read my original post, the question was ‘at what point does one become ………..?’ 

 

Ian provided a reasonable answer on the matter.

 

I go along with what you are saying, howbeit, as Talmid said, “you seem to be ‘disingenuous’ in your concept of grace”.

 

Let’s not forget, God gave the Law to mankind to reveal that which is contrary to his plan of creation. A ‘school master’, if you like, to show man he is a sinner and sin will only lead to trouble and death.

Jesus and the cross of course is the only hope now for mankind.

By pointing out to people what is and isn’t according to scripture is not judging or putting a person down, but ensuring they have a chance for a better life and future. What ever their choice is, so be it.

 

Back to Gay Marriage, I have a right to speak up and object. I don’t wish to have people in government pushing their personal agendas into legislation. Next thing the schools will have to be promoting this as part of the curriculum.

Isn’t it enough what is being taught to kids today, things that are detrimental and destroying the true and good values that this society was built on. This just adds to the weight of parents and families that do care.



(Message edited by Biblianut On 09/12/2011 6:01 PM)
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:10/12/2011 8:11 PM)

Good afternoon, Dog.

To reinforce what Talmid's already pointed out, given what you've written I really don't think you 'get' what's at the heart of the Christian concept of grace. Furthermore, you may have forgotten that God himself labels people, and divides them into one of two broad camps: (1) those who are righteous; and, (2) those who are unrighteous. You've added a third category into the mix, but it's one which you skate perilously close to the edge of y'self: the self-righteous ;)

Blessings,

Ian

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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:10/12/2011 10:12 PM)

Mmm,

Considering the whole of this conversation, bottom line then; it is ok to allow for non-Christian Gays to marry as long as they accept it cannot be an ordinance of God.  Hope this government realises that.

 

I’m glad I am a Christian.

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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:27/08/2013 3:48 PM)

The issue of homosexual marriage, and some mainstream Christian churches supporting it, is a stumbling block for some considering leaving revival. Revival pastors use it as a tool to discredit such churches. I personally wont attend a church that accepts homosexuality. Im not saying homosexuals shouldn't be welcome in church, but allowing them to marry? Its no different to having all those who have a weakness for adultery and asking them to throw their car keys in a bowl. Church leaders should be able to recognise sin and not be encouraging church members to fall in to it. That's the way I see it anyway.
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/09/2013 5:54 PM)

may be  a  visit to the CAI is required.

Gay marriage apparently  doesn't  conflict with their  doctrines and practices.

Seriously, the CAI believes before a  man and woman are married, a man should have a man 'friend'.
This relationship  is blessed before the Lord. (level 1,2,3 or  similar ... it's a bit masonic).
This relationship is your number2 relationship - the Lord (that'd in their case be Scott/Michy/Holy Ghost) are first, and your  wife she comes in at 3rd.
The men were  regularly  encouraged to sleep with their 'male friends'
 - this occurred frequently  (fact)
 - women(wives) would have to  go  elsewhere (spare room/friends/couch).
You weren't allowed to be married to women if you didn't have a  man-friend.

This friendship (level 3), pretty much equals marriage,  but the consummation part wasn't clarified in the friendship teachings,  though some of the CAI Pastors/elders  may have, so they'd be a great party to  bring to the debate...  but they are not quite out of the closet yet. You'd have to promise to be nice and not make fun of them,  so don't invite me.

There were regular occasions where rooms full of almost naked men massaged one another. Private massages did occur with Scott on special occasions... but I guessed you 'd have to be in the inner circle or .... selected.

Apparently  this was just what  Jesus  did  after the last  super with the  disciples... there's a scripture where  someone lays their head on his belly.  Really -  it's  all greek to me.... the scripture but the practice also....  Athenian soldiers were similarly encouraged to have  homosexual activity with their fellow soldiers, so it's all quite normal/common practice.  We modern folks are  all still suffering from  Victorian  repression.

Especially if you 're at level 3 with your man-friend relationship, you were allowed to wear matching clothes -  Scott and Michy have been  pictured in the past with matching 'gold-coloured'  waist coats and other clothes....  gold chains around wrist / neck also adorned.   Indeed particularly if you're Bavarian,  leather Shorts were  Favoured.  kinky shlinky!  .... may be that's why Scott went to Bavarian (army camp) to  start up the cult.

The CAI also have a book on men-friends, so  apparently being gay and revivalist is fine.



PS
I am  not Gay. I have friends who are and  I  think  the quicker we remove barriers to equality the  better.  Institutional Repression is such an  evil sin.
It breaks my heart  how repressed and brutal the CAI is.
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/09/2013 6:22 PM)

  Gay  people  should have the same  political/social rights to services/law as others.
 - see European debates on the matter.
 - this is hugely important to  Gay couples when it comes in inheritance, pension, social-services, law, tax issues.

The  debate is about  respect for other humans.
Being Gay isn't a disease
Gay  folks are  as good/bad as the rest of us and also capable of commitment to a life long relationship

Gay 'marriage' in a  church  .... REALLY  FOLKS .... it's a theological  discussion and rightly so.....   BUT THISdebate is about CIVIL marriage/partnership....   a legally binding relationship that recognizes a  union/commitment between to people (no matter if they're L or B  or G or even T) , not a 'religious/spiritual' ceremony, involving a deity.
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:05/09/2013 1:59 AM)

Hello, Anon.

Gay people  should have the same  political/social rights to services/law as others. In Australia, they do. Recognising gay partnerships as marriage won't add one jot to their ability to access any Australian service, or receive protection under any Australian law.  this is hugely important to  Gay couples when it comes in inheritance, pension, social-services, law, tax issues. Gays already have the same legal coverage as do married couples in this country. What the gay SIG is after here is nothing less than cultural acknowledgement/acceptance/affirmation that their lifestyle choice is normal. 

The debate is about  respect for other humans. No it isn't. The debate is about what constitutes the basic social construct of marriage according to Australian law. Being Gay isn't a disease ... No it isn't. If anything, homosexuality might best be described as an aberration; as a deviation from normal sexuality. However, despite it no longer being considered a psychological disorder, as it was until quite recently, homosexuals statistically suffer more from chronic illnesses, and live correspondingly shorter lives, than do heterosexuals. This would strongly indicate that the gay lifestyle is not a particularly healthy one. Gay folks are as good/bad as the rest of us and also capable of commitment to a life long relationship. Agreed. All of us are 'born in sin and shaped in iniquity' (so Psalm 51:5). However, in Australia a '... commitment to a life long relationship' doesn't automatically infer a marriage relationship.

Gay 'marriage' in a  church .... REALLY  FOLKS .... it's a theological  discussion and rightly so..... BUT THIS debate is about CIVIL marriage/partnership.... a legally binding relationship that recognizes a union/commitment between to people (no matter if they're L or B  or G or even T), not a 'religious/spiritual' ceremony, involving a deity. Two points: point first, marriage is an institution that was established and ordained by God; consequently, it's pretty difficult to sideline him as if he was irrelevant. Point second, there is precisely such an arrangement that describes your '... legally binding relationship' in this country, one  that provides all the legal protections you champion and more. But it isn't called marriage either.

Blessings,

Ian


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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:05/09/2013 9:25 PM)

 hi  Ian  - I like  your  answers.   thanks/appreciated.   Law in Australia seems much fairer for gay folks then than in certain European countries.  Ireland it's a big issue,  but they only introduced divorce 10years ago/or so ... so are still a little behind.

I stand corrected on scope of debate. thanks
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:05/09/2013 9:38 PM)

oh  ... here's the CAI 's official  teaching on being Gay etc..

http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/homosexuality

....  mmm  ....  it certainly doesn't apply to certain  pastors/elders ....
 
This cult (though I  make fun/ slightly flippant) is dangerous, and has quite a lot of homo-sexual/erotic  undertones in it's  culture (see above).
It is extremely  sexually repressive, despite the official  teaching indicated  above (and the 'nice' glossy image on their  website).


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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:26/09/2013 9:44 PM)

Reply to Didaktikon

Hello, Anon.

Gay people  should have the same  political/social rights to services/law as others. In Australia, they do. Recognising gay partnerships as marriage won't add one jot to their ability to access any Australian service, or receive protection under any Australian law.  this is hugely important to  Gay couples when it comes in inheritance, pension, social-services, law, tax issues. Gays already have the same legal coverage as do married couples in this country. What the gay SIG is after here is nothing less than cultural acknowledgement/acceptance/affirmation that their lifestyle choice is normal. 

The debate is about  respect for other humans. No it isn't. The debate is about what constitutes the basic social construct of marriage according to Australian law. Being Gay isn't a disease ... No it isn't. If anything, homosexuality might best be described as an aberration; as a deviation from normal sexuality. However, despite it no longer being considered a psychological disorder, as it was until quite recently, homosexuals statistically suffer more from chronic illnesses, and live correspondingly shorter lives, than do heterosexuals. This would strongly indicate that the gay lifestyle is not a particularly healthy one. Gay folks are as good/bad as the rest of us and also capable of commitment to a life long relationship. Agreed. All of us are 'born in sin and shaped in iniquity' (so Psalm 51:5). However, in Australia a '... commitment to a life long relationship' doesn't automatically infer a marriage relationship.

Gay 'marriage' in a  church .... REALLY  FOLKS .... it's a theological  discussion and rightly so..... BUT THIS debate is about CIVIL marriage/partnership.... a legally binding relationship that recognizes a union/commitment between to people (no matter if they're L or B  or G or even T), not a 'religious/spiritual' ceremony, involving a deity. Two points: point first, marriage is an institution that was established and ordained by God; consequently, it's pretty difficult to sideline him as if he was irrelevant. Point second, there is precisely such an arrangement that describes your '... legally binding relationship' in this country, one  that provides all the legal protections you champion and more. But it isn't called marriage either.

Blessings,

Ian
Ian, I get what you are saying, however if you are going to take it that far then I would invite your comments on whether 'wiccan' marriages should not be legal when they are in the sense that a licence has to be applied for also.  A 'gay' marriage would need to follow that type of process also.  I really think that the whole argument of gay marriage undermining a christian marriage is ridiculous because they are two totally different things.  I am a christian and I have no problem with gay people committing to marriage together.  If they want a christian ceremony well that might be difficult for them to get that happening......but if they apply for a licence (when it becomes legal that is) and have their own commitment type of marriage ceremony what's the big deal.  It will not in any shape or form undermine my marriage to my husband or anyone else's marriage.  It won't be considered 'normal' just like 'wiccan' marriages are not considered normal.  
Really I think there are far more important issues that the christian church should be concerning itself with and I would seriously wonder if the majority of christians would really lose any sleep if a loving gay couple wanted to get married.  It's their choice...if the govt register it as a marriage then should not matter to anyone but the couple and their family and friends.  I'm sure there are all sorts of 'marriages' out there that are legal and are totally not honoured at all.   The Lord sees all and a marriage covenant with Him acknowledged as part of the ceremony can not be corrupted, undermined or hindered if a gay couple 2 doors down in a hall are having their own commitment ceremony.
I'd be interested to know how you can explain it would though if you have time as you seem an intelligent chap.
Blessings, A

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Arielle50
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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:26/09/2013 9:55 PM)

Reply to Didaktikon

Hello, Anon.

Gay people  should have the same  political/social rights to services/law as others. In Australia, they do. Recognising gay partnerships as marriage won't add one jot to their ability to access any Australian service, or receive protection under any Australian law.  this is hugely important to  Gay couples when it comes in inheritance, pension, social-services, law, tax issues. Gays already have the same legal coverage as do married couples in this country. What the gay SIG is after here is nothing less than cultural acknowledgement/acceptance/affirmation that their lifestyle choice is normal. 

The debate is about  respect for other humans. No it isn't. The debate is about what constitutes the basic social construct of marriage according to Australian law. Being Gay isn't a disease ... No it isn't. If anything, homosexuality might best be described as an aberration; as a deviation from normal sexuality. However, despite it no longer being considered a psychological disorder, as it was until quite recently, homosexuals statistically suffer more from chronic illnesses, and live correspondingly shorter lives, than do heterosexuals. This would strongly indicate that the gay lifestyle is not a particularly healthy one. Gay folks are as good/bad as the rest of us and also capable of commitment to a life long relationship. Agreed. All of us are 'born in sin and shaped in iniquity' (so Psalm 51:5). However, in Australia a '... commitment to a life long relationship' doesn't automatically infer a marriage relationship.

Gay 'marriage' in a  church .... REALLY  FOLKS .... it's a theological  discussion and rightly so..... BUT THIS debate is about CIVIL marriage/partnership.... a legally binding relationship that recognizes a union/commitment between to people (no matter if they're L or B  or G or even T), not a 'religious/spiritual' ceremony, involving a deity. Two points: point first, marriage is an institution that was established and ordained by God; consequently, it's pretty difficult to sideline him as if he was irrelevant. Point second, there is precisely such an arrangement that describes your '... legally binding relationship' in this country, one  that provides all the legal protections you champion and more. But it isn't called marriage either.

Blessings,

Ian

Also, I meant to ask where you get the stats or research sourced from for homosexuals statistically suffering more chronic disease and shorter lives than heteros?  I've never heard that before but if you can show your source I'd be interested to read it.
BTW is the definition under the law of the land that marriage is "established and ordained by God" then I can't find it on any law web sites under the definition.  marriage occurs world wide God ordained or not and in all shapes and forms by all sorts of local/tribe officials, etc.  the gays' argument is they want a 'legal marriage' not a God ordained.  Perhaps the definition by law in Australia on what constitutes a marriage in this country.  Until the government comes down upon christians and tells them they are not allowed to mention the Lord in their ceremonies then I fail to even see why this is an issue affecting christians at all.  As a christian myself, I would like someone to explain it to me why it really is such an issue to christians?  We live in a world full of non christian things and activities yet we still live here.  We don't control the world Satan does and will until the Lord comes back.  Seeking to control the government with christian pollies, etc is another issue but astounds me why bother, it's going to be corrupt because of the Prince of this world owning the principalities including govt. 
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Didaktikon
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:28/09/2013 10:50 PM)

Hello, Arielle.

I get what you are saying, however if you are going to take it that far then I would invite your comments on whether 'wiccan' marriages should not be legal when they are in the sense that a licence has to be applied for also. Actually, your response tells me you didn't "get" what I was saying at all. My position was based on the Australian legal definition of marriage being between one man and one woman. Religious affiliations, flavours and beliefs, or the lack thereof, are completely irrelevant to my fundamental point. A 'gay' marriage would need to follow that type of process also. Please read what I wrote above. I really think that the whole argument of gay marriage undermining a christian marriage is ridiculous because they are two totally different things. Who was talking about 'Christian' versus 'non-Christian' marriage? I wasn't. My post had to do with the legal requirements for plain old "vanilla" marriage in this country. I am a christian and I have no problem with gay people committing to marriage together. Yes. This admission leads me to assume you're one of those Christians who doesn't understand either the Bible, or the theology that derives from it, particularly well. If they want a christian ceremony well that might be difficult for them to get that happening......but if they apply for a licence (when it becomes legal that is) and have their own commitment type of marriage ceremony what's the big deal. The "big" deal, in fact the "only" deal of substance to this issue thus far, is that "gay marriage" isn't legal yet. It will not in any shape or form undermine my marriage to my husband or anyone else's marriage. Agreed. But it will undermine one of the original intents behind God instituting marriage for human beings to begin with.

Really I think there are far more important issues that the christian church should be concerning itself with and I would seriously wonder if the majority of christians would really lose any sleep if a loving gay couple wanted to get married. And I agree completely. Clearly one of the most pressing issues the Church should focus on correcting, is the alarming level of biblical and theological illiteracy apparent in a fair chunk of self-professing Christians! But for the record, I'm on the record confessing that should the pro-Gay lobby get it's way on this issue, I personally won't lose a wink of sleep either. this issue It's their choice...if the govt register it as a marriage then should not matter to anyone but the couple and their family and friends. Nope. This issue is about a statistically insignificant SIG seeking to re-engineer one of humanity's oldest social instititutions, and then for no other reason than to gain cultural affirmation. I'm sure there are all sorts of 'marriages' out there that are legal and are totally not honoured at all. Yep. But the kicker is that they're l-e-g-a-l. The Lord sees all and a marriage covenant with Him acknowledged as part of the ceremony can not be corrupted, undermined or hindered if a gay couple 2 doors down in a hall are having their own commitment ceremony. I've no problem with the gay couple two doors down having their own commitment ceremony. In fact, I'm all for them having their own commitment ceremony. But a "commitment ceremony" isn't a marriage by Australian law.

I'd be interested to know how you can explain it would though if you have time as you seem an intelligent chap. And now you have your answer.

Also, I meant to ask where you get the stats or research sourced from for homosexuals statistically suffering more chronic disease and shorter lives than heteros?  I've never heard that before but if you can show your source I'd be interested to read it. The statistics were from an American Medical Association study into homosexual health, that I sourced well over a decade ago, when I was doing research for a paper on this subject.

BTW is the definition under the law of the land that marriage is "established and ordained by God" then I can't find it on any law web sites under the definition. I'm not surprised, given that such isn't what I said. Here's a direct cut-and-paste from my earlier post, with a little added emphasis in bold, and underlining: "... marriage is an institution that was established and ordained by God ..." Do you "get" my point this time around? marriage occurs world wide God ordained or not and in all shapes and forms by all sorts of local/tribe officials, etc.  the gays' argument is they want a 'legal marriage' not a God ordained.  Perhaps the definition by law in Australia on what constitutes a marriage in this country. Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you were trying to express.

Until the government comes down upon christians and tells them they are not allowed to mention the Lord in their ceremonies then I fail to even see why this is an issue affecting christians at all.
Clearly, you don't. As a christian myself, I would like someone to explain it to me why it really is such an issue to christians? Do you think it just might have something to do with what the Christian Bible teaches about the issues of homosexuality and marriage? We live in a world full of non christian things and activities yet we still live here.  We don't control the world Satan does and will until the Lord comes back. Seeking to control the government with christian pollies, etc is another issue but astounds me why bother, it's going to be corrupt because of the Prince of this world owning the principalities including govt. Do you seriously believe that Christians are here simply to "wait it out" until the Parousia? You don't think we're supposed to do the whole "salt" and "light" bit?

Blessings,

Ian




(Message edited by Didaktikon On 28/09/2013 11:34 PM)
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:29/09/2013 4:57 AM)

Ian

I do like your last sentence ..... You don't think we're supposed to do the whole 'salt' and 'light' bit? 

Standing up and being counted even and especially in times of persecution?

Chips

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Arielle50
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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:29/09/2013 6:02 AM)

Reply to Didaktikon

Hello, Arielle.

I get what you are saying, however if you are going to take it that far then I would invite your comments on whether 'wiccan' marriages should not be legal when they are in the sense that a licence has to be applied for also. Actually, your response tells me you didn't "get" what I was saying at all. My position was based on the Australian legal definition of marriage being between one man and one woman. Religious affiliations, flavours and beliefs, or the lack thereof, are completely irrelevant to my fundamental point. A 'gay' marriage would need to follow that type of process also. Please read what I wrote above. I really think that the whole argument of gay marriage undermining a christian marriage is ridiculous because they are two totally different things. Who was talking about 'Christian' versus 'non-Christian' marriage? I wasn't. My post had to do with the legal requirements for plain old "vanilla" marriage in this country. I am a christian and I have no problem with gay people committing to marriage together. Yes. This admission leads me to assume you're one of those Christians who doesn't understand either the Bible, or the theology that derives from it, particularly well. If they want a christian ceremony well that might be difficult for them to get that happening......but if they apply for a licence (when it becomes legal that is) and have their own commitment type of marriage ceremony what's the big deal. The "big" deal, in fact the "only" deal of substance to this issue thus far, is that "gay marriage" isn't legal yet. It will not in any shape or form undermine my marriage to my husband or anyone else's marriage. Agreed. But it will undermine one of the original intents behind God instituting marriage for human beings to begin with.

Really I think there are far more important issues that the christian church should be concerning itself with and I would seriously wonder if the majority of christians would really lose any sleep if a loving gay couple wanted to get married. And I agree completely. Clearly one of the most pressing issues the Church should focus on correcting, is the alarming level of biblical and theological illiteracy apparent in a fair chunk of self-professing Christians! But for the record, I'm on the record confessing that should the pro-Gay lobby get it's way on this issue, I personally won't lose a wink of sleep either. this issue It's their choice...if the govt register it as a marriage then should not matter to anyone but the couple and their family and friends. Nope. This issue is about a statistically insignificant SIG seeking to re-engineer one of humanity's oldest social instititutions, and then for no other reason than to gain cultural affirmation. I'm sure there are all sorts of 'marriages' out there that are legal and are totally not honoured at all. Yep. But the kicker is that they're l-e-g-a-l. The Lord sees all and a marriage covenant with Him acknowledged as part of the ceremony can not be corrupted, undermined or hindered if a gay couple 2 doors down in a hall are having their own commitment ceremony. I've no problem with the gay couple two doors down having their own commitment ceremony. In fact, I'm all for them having their own commitment ceremony. But a "commitment ceremony" isn't a marriage by Australian law.

I'd be interested to know how you can explain it would though if you have time as you seem an intelligent chap. And now you have your answer.

Also, I meant to ask where you get the stats or research sourced from for homosexuals statistically suffering more chronic disease and shorter lives than heteros?  I've never heard that before but if you can show your source I'd be interested to read it. The statistics were from an American Medical Association study into homosexual health, that I sourced well over a decade ago, when I was doing research for a paper on this subject.

BTW is the definition under the law of the land that marriage is "established and ordained by God" then I can't find it on any law web sites under the definition. I'm not surprised, given that such isn't what I said. Here's a direct cut-and-paste from my earlier post, with a little added emphasis in bold, and underlining: "... marriage is an institution that was established and ordained by God ..." Do you "get" my point this time around? marriage occurs world wide God ordained or not and in all shapes and forms by all sorts of local/tribe officials, etc.  the gays' argument is they want a 'legal marriage' not a God ordained.  Perhaps the definition by law in Australia on what constitutes a marriage in this country. Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you were trying to express.

Until the government comes down upon christians and tells them they are not allowed to mention the Lord in their ceremonies then I fail to even see why this is an issue affecting christians at all.
Clearly, you don't. As a christian myself, I would like someone to explain it to me why it really is such an issue to christians? Do you think it just might have something to do with what the Christian Bible teaches about the issues of homosexuality and marriage? We live in a world full of non christian things and activities yet we still live here.  We don't control the world Satan does and will until the Lord comes back. Seeking to control the government with christian pollies, etc is another issue but astounds me why bother, it's going to be corrupt because of the Prince of this world owning the principalities including govt. Do you seriously believe that Christians are here simply to "wait it out" until the Parousia? You don't think we're supposed to do the whole "salt" and "light" bit?

Blessings,

Ian


Ian
My understanidng on saltiness from what I've read, learnt and feel......
Mark 9:50  -saltiness can be lost specifically through a lack of peace with one another, our command to “have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.” Luke 14:34-35  metaphor of salt once again, this time in the context of obedient discipleship to Jesus Christ. The loss of saltiness occurs in the failure of the Christian to daily take up the cross and follow Christ wholeheartedly.  We can set ourselves apart from the world but at the same time not judge it and seek to live in peace with one another without making a big noise about what we object to.
Marriage may have been ordained by God, I don't disagree with you and I'm not sure you were actually getting what I was saying either.
Wiccan marriages are legal....gay marriages will be too one day.  Glad you won't lose any sleep and neither will I.  It does not mean I condone sin by acknoweledging gays wanting to be committed to one another that way.  It does not mean I personally think God changes his mind about homosexuality or indeed any hetero loving marraige is undermined.
Perhaps I don't express myself as well as your superior learned self....I am a simple person with simple beliefs based within my heart and soul and not necessarily based on head knowledge.  I do not like to judge others and I do not like to involve myself with worldly power systems like politics or deciding what laws get passed or don't.  At the end of the day God is in control regardless what we do or don't do (just what I feel)
I do 'wait upon the Lord' I do wait for his return and I do seek to keep my spiritual self 'separate'.  Yes we are to be salt and light - you seem to be asking me a question in the negative which infers you have made a judegement on what I think re the salt and light comment.  Along with your other insults you don't seem to want to express much grace or peace towards me (Mark 9:50 above).
For me, each individual christian has their own way of being salt and light in this world and aggressive insulting and sarcasm by your superior learned self yourself towards someone of lesser learnedness (myself) is your way.  It is not my way of 'being' in this world.  I seek to live in peace, respect others christian or not, the grace of God in one's heart goes a long long way.
If it is your role to 'correct' others and infer they are not as good a christian as you because of this or that or whatever, then that's entirely your choice.
We are all learning till the day we draw our last breath on this earth.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway, aggressive sarcasm pervading throught the lines is not my imagination I'm sure but hey .....keep blessed and have a great night regardless.
A
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Didaktikon
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:29/09/2013 6:36 AM)

Hello, Arielle.

I'll begin by pointing out that I'm not really "into" back-handed praise and compliments. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Second, I'm not really "into" people equating solid biblical and theological understanding with "head knowledge", either. Why? Because good theology leads to good doctrine; good doctrine results in good ethics; good ethics develops good behaviours; and good behaviours result in good Christian relationships. In other words, there are very practical outcomes for the sort of theology-in-practice I promote. Third, if you thought I was being insulting and/or sarcastic towards you, then you really haven't much of a clue about what takes place in robust discussion and/or debate. Perhaps you'd prefer soft caresses and tickles? Or to have unbiblical points-of-view affirmed as being worthy of acceptance? Sorry, but that sort of nonsense isn't part of my spiritual DNA, or calling.

Biblically ignorant and theologically naive current/former Revivalists are a dime-a-dozen around these parts. If you're going to claim Christian faith, then it's probably best you try undergirding your opinions with something approaching biblical warrant. And if you're as interested in learning as you claimed towards the close of your rejoinder, then expect to have your views challenged as part of the process.

Blessings,

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 29/09/2013 6:41 AM)
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Didaktikon
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:29/09/2013 6:43 AM)

Chipster,

I do like your last sentence ..... "You don't think we're supposed to do the whole 'salt' and 'light' bit?" Standing up and being counted even and especially in times of persecution? Something like that

Blessings, young lady.

Ian

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Arielle50
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:29/09/2013 7:04 PM)

Ian
My understanidng on saltiness from what I've read, learnt and feel......
Mark 9:50  -saltiness can be lost specifically through a lack of peace with one another, our command to “have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.” Luke 14:34-35  metaphor of salt once again, this time in the context of obedient discipleship to Jesus Christ. The loss of saltiness occurs in the failure of the Christian to daily take up the cross and follow Christ wholeheartedly.  We can set ourselves apart from the world but at the same time not judge it and seek to live in peace with one another without making a big noise about what we object to.
Marriage may have been ordained by God, I don't disagree with you and I'm not sure you were actually getting what I was saying either.
Wiccan marriages are legal....gay marriages will be too one day.  Glad you won't lose any sleep and neither will I.  It does not mean I condone sin by acknoweledging gays wanting to be committed to one another that way.  It does not mean I personally think God changes his mind about homosexuality or indeed any hetero loving marraige is undermined.
Perhaps I don't express myself as well as your superior learned self....I am a simple person with simple beliefs based within my heart and soul and not necessarily based on head knowledge.  I do not like to judge others and I do not like to involve myself with worldly power systems like politics or deciding what laws get passed or don't.  At the end of the day God is in control regardless what we do or don't do (just what I feel)
I do 'wait upon the Lord' I do wait for his return and I do seek to keep my spiritual self 'separate'.  Yes we are to be salt and light - you seem to be asking me a question in the negative which infers you have made a judegement on what I think re the salt and light comment.  Along with your other insults you don't seem to want to express much grace or peace towards me (Mark 9:50 above).
For me, each individual christian has their own way of being salt and light in this world and aggressive insulting and sarcasm by your superior learned self yourself towards someone of lesser learnedness (myself) is your way.  It is not my way of 'being' in this world.  I seek to live in peace, respect others christian or not, the grace of God in one's heart goes a long long way.
If it is your role to 'correct' others and infer they are not as good a christian as you because of this or that or whatever, then that's entirely your choice.
We are all learning till the day we draw our last breath on this earth.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts anyway, aggressive sarcasm pervading throught the lines is not my imagination I'm sure but hey .....keep blessed and have a great night regardless.
A

RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:29/09/2013 6:36 AM)

Hello, Arielle.

I'll begin by pointing out that I'm not really "into" back-handed praise and compliments. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Second, I'm not really "into" people equating solid biblical and theological understanding with "head knowledge", either. Why? Because good theology leads to good doctrine; good doctrine results in good ethics; good ethics develops good behaviours; and good behaviours result in good Christian relationships. In other words, there are very practical outcomes for the sort of theology-in-practice I promote. Third, if you thought I was being insulting and/or sarcastic towards you, then you really haven't much of a clue about what takes place in robust discussion and/or debate. Perhaps you'd prefer soft caresses and tickles? Or to have unbiblical points-of-view affirmed as being worthy of acceptance? Sorry, but that sort of nonsense isn't part of my spiritual DNA, or calling.

Biblically ignorant and theologically naive current/former Revivalists are a dime-a-dozen around these parts. If you're going to claim Christian faith, then it's probably best you try undergirding your opinions with something approaching biblical warrant. And if you're as interested in learning as you claimed towards the close of your rejoinder, then expect to have your views challenged as part of the process.

Blessings,

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 29/09/2013 6:41 AM)
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Ian
Is this a debating forum?  I did chuckle as your comment reminded me of Michael Palin from Monty Python going from door to door looking for the ‘argument room’ and ended up in the ‘hitting on the head lessons room’. 

My mistake I thought it was a Christian community forum I had signed into.  I never was any good at debating because I’m always trying to empathise with the other person’s point of view (smile)

Anyway I respect the individual to have an opinion and I did not come on here to debate with you Ian just ask your opinion on a couple of things.  I see you take it very personally and ark up white markedly (using bold = shouting? Internet etiquette?) when people don’t always agree with you and yes knowledge of the bible is a good an powerful thing but it’s always good to balance things out with laws written on the heart not just the head.  Also be careful with the sarcasm as it is known to be the lowest form of wit and using it to cyber beat people around the head is not known to be a well received type of communication unless it’s between close mates who like to stir up each other. 

Building one another up in the faith and love can be done in other ways and no I would not at all like to be caressed or tickled by you (yew!) sarcasm again with revolting undertones.

I like how Jesus encourages us to walk peaceably in the world and to tolerate fools of which you obviously have determined I am one.  We all are fools compared to His wisdom but as the song says “I’d rather be a fool in the eyes of man than a fool in the eyes of God”

I’m curious though why you dish out the reprimands and sarcasm and proclaim your expert doctrine and then sign off blessings?  Does that mean you need to sugar coat your sins?

Nothing else in your email indicates you wish to bless me.  That’s ok I am blessed and I don’t mind being one of the rabble and ‘dime a dozen’ ex revivalists (as you call them) you interact with on this forum.  Keep studying – ethics and sound doctrine imprint the spirit when God speaks to the heart rather than reading many many theological books.  Thanks goodness or simple people like me wouldn’t have a hope of ‘feeling’ that joy and assurance.
A

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Didaktikon
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:30/09/2013 1:37 AM)

Hello, Arielle.

You've been here, what? All of 5 minutes? And yet in that very brief time you've managed to make accusations, and deliver judgments, aplenty. I'd suggest that you try pacing yourself a wee bit better, before you trip over your feet

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:30/09/2013 7:41 AM)

Arielle50

Keep studying – ethics and sound doctrine imprint the spirit when God speaks to the heart rather than reading many many theological books.  Thanks goodness or simple people like me wouldn’t have a hope of ‘feeling’ that joy and assurance.

Christian love is not mere sentiment, it is rooted in knowledge and understanding.

Philippians 1: 9,10.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.




(Message edited by Biblianut On 30/09/2013 7:41 AM)
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Reply To Biblianut
(Date Posted:02/10/2013 6:32 AM)

Reply to Biblianut

Arielle50

Keep studying – ethics and sound doctrine imprint the spirit when God speaks to the heart rather than reading many many theological books.  Thanks goodness or simple people like me wouldn’t have a hope of ‘feeling’ that joy and assurance.

Christian love is not mere sentiment, it is rooted in knowledge and understanding.

Philippians 1: 9,10.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.



That's very true (understanding being the key word) and I love the commentary below and reflecting on how blessed christians are under the new covenant that we can ask God direct if we have a question.  It is sad that some people though study study study and become puffed up in their own self knowledge but never come to the truth within their spirit and so lose the simplicity of caring for otheres in a compassionate way but rather feel compelled to beat others around the heard so to speak putting their insistence at 'being right' above plain good old fashioned tolerance and genuine authenticity as a gentle  human being.  

here is an extract

"Some Christians use the Bible as a law library and delve into the Word to prove a point or show how wise they are. Some fill their heads with Scripture believing that increased knowledge will create a relationship with God. These believers are like the doctor on the TV series “House.” Dr. House is a brilliant diagnostic physician who treats his patients with as little relationship with them as possible. He finds out everything about his patients but he really doesn’t know them. 

The Bible should be read as a love letter from a loved one who is separated by thousands of miles and is desperately waiting to be reunited. Whenever, the reader has any confusion, question or concern about what the letter means, they can ask God directly."

It's sad for me to reflect I have family members still in the 'cult' who are just like Dr House - hard as nails to anyone who has left and don't really know the meaning of christian love and tolerance towards others who don't meet their benchmark.

Thankfully Jesus is pleased with childlike trusting faith moreso than head knowledge.  We are not all called to be close to perfect praise God.

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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:03/10/2013 1:30 AM)

Hello, Arielle.

Christian love is not mere sentiment, it is rooted in knowledge and understanding.

Philippians 1: 9,10.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

That's very true (understanding being the key word) and I love the commentary below and reflecting on how blessed christians are under the new covenant that we can ask God direct if we have a question. God ordinarily speaks to people through people. That's why he "gave some to be ... teachers", etc.  It is sad that some people though study study study and become puffed up in their own self knowledge but never come to the truth within their spirit ... Oh, I think there are many more people who become "puffed up" in, and "boastful" about, their ignorance. Consequently, people who claim Christian faith, but who hold to opinions that aren't undergirded by Scripture, should probably reflect at length on what Jesus had to say about this matter in the Gospel According to Luke 10:27 (you'll find "Luke" directly after "Mark", if you're wondering), and 2 Timothy 2:15 ... and so lose the simplicity of caring for otheres in a compassionate way but rather feel compelled to beat others around the heard so to speak putting their insistence at 'being right' above plain good old fashioned tolerance and genuine authenticity as a gentle  human being. I imagine you're looking in a mirror whilst making this judgment; feeling very ashamed.

Blessings,

Ian


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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:03/10/2013 5:02 AM)

Reply to Didaktikon

Hello, Arielle.

Christian love is not mere sentiment, it is rooted in knowledge and understanding.

Philippians 1: 9,10.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.

That's very true (understanding being the key word) and I love the commentary below and reflecting on how blessed christians are under the new covenant that we can ask God direct if we have a question. God ordinarily speaks to people through people. That's why he "gave some to be ... teachers", etc.  It is sad that some people though study study study and become puffed up in their own self knowledge but never come to the truth within their spirit ... Oh, I think there are many more people who become "puffed up" in, and "boastful" about, their ignorance. Consequently, people who claim Christian faith, but who hold to opinions that aren't undergirded by Scripture, should probably reflect at length on what Jesus had to say about this matter in the Gospel According to Luke 10:27 (you'll find "Luke" directly after "Mark", if you're wondering), and 2 Timothy 2:15 ... and so lose the simplicity of caring for otheres in a compassionate way but rather feel compelled to beat others around the heard so to speak putting their insistence at 'being right' above plain good old fashioned tolerance and genuine authenticity as a gentle  human being. I imagine you're looking in a mirror whilst making this judgment; feeling very ashamed.

Blessings,

Ian

Am I meant to be ashamed of something I've said or done?  I was chatting along to someone else on here and musing about thoughts Ian but you've pounced on me again.  Am I not allowed to have any thoughts or are you the curator of this forum? 

Gosh that so reminds me of my cult days with the pastor laying guilt trips from the pulpit on all and sundry as he saw fit.  When I escaped I had to wonder what the Lord does to false prophets.

Freedom in Christ……There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus…..we all fall short in ourselves no matter what but washed daily by His saving blood (what greater gift is there in the universe to a human?)…..grace and humility towards others should come easily and humbleness before our Lord.

I’m hoping you are a happy person Ian but you seem quite angry for some reason?  Have you been really hurt by the cult and don't like people much anymore?

We each are responsible for ourselves and a little grace goes a long long way even in cyberland. J

Keep blessed all of my fellow cult escapees.....remember we are not prisoners to false doctrine our hearts are transparent to our Lord alone and our pain from the wounds, emotional and mental damage and hurts others in the cult have knowingly or unkowingly inflicted on us...... He carries for us.  :-) x LIC

Arielle


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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:03/10/2013 5:13 AM)

Hello again, Arielle.

Am I meant to be ashamed of something I've said or done? I guess that would depend on how you view hypocrisy, I suppose.  I was chatting along to someone else on here and musing about thoughts Ian but you've pounced on me again.  Am I not allowed to have any thoughts or are you the curator of this forum? The answer to both questions is 'yes'. I'm the chief dialogue partner on this forum, and the person whose role it is to challenge people's thinking. It's a gift.

Gosh that so reminds me of my cult days with the pastor laying guilt trips from the pulpit on all and sundry as he saw fit.  When I escaped I had to wonder what the Lord does to false prophets. He sends a lot of them my way, actually 

Freedom in Christ……There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus…..we all fall short in ourselves no matter what but washed daily by His saving blood (what greater gift is there in the universe to a human?)…..grace and humility towards others should come easily and humbleness before our Lord. Indeed it should. But humility of itself is no sure sign, nor guide, to correct belief or interpretation.

I’m hoping you are a happy person Ian but you seem quite angry for some reason?  Have you been really hurt by the cult and don't like people much anymore? Hardly! I'm someone who goes out of his way to ease the suffering of people hurt by Revivalism.

We each are responsible for ourselves and a little grace goes a long long way even in cyberland. Keep blessed all of my fellow cult escapees.....remember we are not prisoners to false doctrine our hearts are transparent to our Lord alone and our pain from the wounds, emotional and mental damage and hurts others in the cult have knowingly or unkowingly inflicted on us...... He carries for us. Two points. Point first, we are actually our "brother's keeper"; consequently, it's not simply the case of being responsible for onesself. Point second, some of us remain prisoners to "false doctrine", even though out of the physical chains of Revivalism. Again, that's why I'm here.

Blessings,

Ian


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Reply To Didaktikon
(Date Posted:03/10/2013 6:06 AM)

Reply to Didaktikon

Hello again, Arielle.

Am I meant to be ashamed of something I've said or done? I guess that would depend on how you view hypocrisy, I suppose. it would 


Gosh that so reminds me of my cult days with the pastor laying guilt trips from the pulpit on all and sundry as he saw fit.  When I escaped I had to wonder what the Lord does to false prophets. He sends a lot of them my way, actually  really


Freedom in Christ……There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus…..we all fall short in ourselves no matter what but washed daily by His saving blood (what greater gift is there in the universe to a human?)…..grace and humility towards others should come easily and humbleness before our Lord. Indeed it should. But humility of itself is no sure sign, nor guide, to correct belief or interpretation.It's a good start by Jesus's example.......correcting people on a forum when you don't really know them or their circumstances like their christian friends, their pastor, etc do is very limited and possibly attempting to do this with some could be a worry.  You take on a big responsibility in doing that and I would think caution would be needed in case you damage someone.  Did the Lord call you to do this?  If so I guess if you are praying and checking with Him before you give spiritual advice or correction would be wisdom in itself.  Then again I guess not everyone who comes on here wants the best for others too so I wouldn't blame you for pulling up insidiously nasty creepy forum users.


I’m hoping you are a happy person Ian but you seem quite angry for some reason?  Have you been really hurt by the cult and don't like people much anymore? Hardly! I'm someone who goes out of his way to ease the suffering of people hurt by Revivalism.Comments below in pink - now I know you are the curator I’d better watch you don’t delete me for annoying you I guess (smile)


We each are responsible for ourselves and a little grace goes a long long way even in cyberland. Keep blessed all of my fellow cult escapees.....remember we are not prisoners to false doctrine our hearts are transparent to our Lord alone and our pain from the wounds, emotional and mental damage and hurts others in the cult have knowingly or unkowingly inflicted on us...... He carries for us. Two points. Point first, we are actually our "brother's keeper"; consequently, it's not simply the case of being responsible for onesself. Point second, some of us remain prisoners to "false doctrine", even though out of the physical chains of Revivalism. Again, that's why I'm here.I didn’t say it was just a case of that – sentence picked apart to merely argue with me again?


Blessings,



Ian,

I really wish there was such a thing as the Oracle of All Wisdom in the form of a human being but there is not, no not even on this forum.

However I am glad to hear you express something to indicate you have good intentions and I’ll have to take your word for that if you’ve gone to so much trouble to set up the forum if that’s what you did in an attempt to ‘educate’ or ‘re-educate’ ex members…..

However you have to admit your methods by calling people ‘idiots’, etc when it seems likely to me some have come on here in some measure of pain shows your disrespect and dismissiveness towards them as human beings.  Some people on here seem a bit disturbed for sure but I’m not sure you are endowed with the gifts of correction……not totally convinced of that one (smile).

I have friends who are fabulous teachers with a true calling and gift when sharing in home groups and bible studies but never come across an agro insulting one before.  Each to their own.  I guess you get away with it in cyber land because you are kind of anonymous and not face to face calling people this and that to their face.  But I don’t’ know you so maybe you do that in bible school too?  Not sure of what the retention rate of students would be though in that hypothetical combative scenario???

I wondered if you were the curator or something when I noticed the huge number of posts on your profile on the l.h. side of the page tonight so thanks for answering that. 

I stumbled across this forum by chance and now after reading the posts of others I am amazed, encouraged and glad at some of the shared posts of other forum users.   The resilience of fellow escapees who have survived some very traumatic experiences in the cult and remained steadfast in their love of the Lord makes me happy. J  I have great compassion for those held under brainwashing and the spirit of deceit within that whole cult.  

Have a great night 

PS I

A

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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:04/10/2013 5:06 PM)

Hello, Arielle.

Gosh that so reminds me of my cult days with the pastor laying guilt trips from the pulpit on all and sundry as he saw fit.  When I escaped I had to wonder what the Lord does to false prophets. He sends a lot of them my way, actually. really? And truly.

Freedom in Christ……There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus…..we all fall short in ourselves no matter what but washed daily by His saving blood (what greater gift is there in the universe to a human?)…..grace and humility towards others should come easily and humbleness before our Lord. Indeed it should. But humility of itself is no sure sign, nor guide, to correct belief or interpretation. It's a good start by Jesus's example.......correcting people on a forum when you don't really know them or their circumstances like their christian friends, their pastor, etc do is very limited and possibly attempting to do this with some could be a worry. I'd suggest that if you're going to appeal to Christ's example, then you better make sure you properly represent him. And you haven't, by the way. As the for the other considerations you raised, I respond to what people write, which has nothing to do with who their friends might be. You take on a big responsibility in doing that and I would think caution would be needed in case you damage someone. People who come here, generally-speaking, are already damaged. I provide the sorts of information they require to heal. Ask around, by-and-large they do. Did the Lord call you to do this? 'Yes', he did. And he blesses my efforts too. If so I guess if you are praying and checking with Him before you give spiritual advice or correction would be wisdom in itself. Clearly. Then again I guess not everyone who comes on here wants the best for others too so I wouldn't blame you for pulling up insidiously nasty creepy forum users. There are one or two serial pests; they invariably get short shrift. My principle focus, however, remains on correcting faulty thinking and faulty theology; hence my engagement with you.

We each are responsible for ourselves and a little grace goes a long long way even in cyberland. Keep blessed all of my fellow cult escapees.....remember we are not prisoners to false doctrine our hearts are transparent to our Lord alone and our pain from the wounds, emotional and mental damage and hurts others in the cult have knowingly or unkowingly inflicted on us...... He carries for us. Two points. Point first, we are actually our "brother's keeper"; consequently, it's not simply the case of being responsible for onesself. Point second, some of us remain prisoners to "false doctrine", even though out of the physical chains of Revivalism. Again, that's why I'm here. I didn’t say it was just a case of that – sentence picked apart to merely argue with me again? I responded to all of your sentences; hadn't you noticed? And there was no "picking apart" what you said, you were quoted in full, and in context.

I really wish there was such a thing as the Oracle of All Wisdom in the form of a human being but there is not, no not even on this forum. There are, and always will be differences of opinion. However, not all opinions are equally valid, and not all are equally informed. However, when it comes to Scripture, it's proper interpretation and application, and its relationship to Revivalism; I'm the closest thing to the 'Oracle' you're likely to find. However I am glad to hear you express something to indicate you have good intentions and I’ll have to take your word for that if you’ve gone to so much trouble to set up the forum if that’s what you did in an attempt to ‘educate’ or ‘re-educate’ ex members… I didn't set up this forum, neither am I its owner. However, I am the resident biblical scholar and theologian here, and the chief apologist for Christian orthodoxy.

However you have to admit your methods by calling people ‘idiots’, etc when it seems likely to me some have come on here in some measure of pain shows your disrespect and dismissiveness towards them as human beings. No it doesn't, it simply points out that some people are, in fact,  idiots. Generally speaking the harshest term I reserve for the dullards and contrarians I encounter here is 'goose', and it takes a considerable period of time before they earn that epithet (my philosophical approach is to always engage in irenics first. Only when warranted does that approach switch towards polemics). Some people on here seem a bit disturbed for sure but I’m not sure you are endowed with the gifts of correction……not totally convinced of that one (smile). And you don't have to be, given it isn't your call to make (also smiling).

I have friends who are fabulous teachers with a true calling and gift when sharing in home groups and bible studies but never come across an agro insulting one before.  Each to their own. Indeed. And given what you've shared thus far, I find myself wondering how credible your judgment in identifying "fabulous teachers with true callings and gifts" actually is. But that's likely a conversation for another day. I guess you get away with it in cyber land because you are kind of anonymous and not face to face calling people this and that to their face. Do you think? My identity is very well known (i.e. it isn't a "secret"), so I'm hardly "anonymous". My email address and website URL is provided in the signature block of every post I make; and I'm someone who has a deserved reputation for calling a spade a shovel face-to-face at every opportunity I get. I'd suggest, therefore, you spend a bit of time actually engaged in something approaching research before regailing us further with your misinfomed opinions. But I don’t’ know you so maybe you do that in bible school too? I'm all for honesty, not pretense, regardless of the environment. Not sure of what the retention rate of students would be though in that hypothetical combative scenario??? Hypothetically, I'd wager close on 100%, actually. Christians should have a robust faith, and so they should be able to defend their faith robustly. My experience has been that those who take the Great Commission seriously, and who anticipate being "salt-and-light" in their respective communities crave solid, effective and "useable" training.

I wondered if you were the curator or something when I noticed the huge number of posts on your profile on the l.h. side of the page tonight so thanks for answering that. No problem. I stumbled across this forum by chance and now after reading the posts of others I am amazed, encouraged and glad at some of the shared posts of other forum users. The resilience of fellow escapees who have survived some very traumatic experiences in the cult and remained steadfast in their love of the Lord makes me happy. J  I have great compassion for those held under brainwashing and the spirit of deceit within that whole cult. Indeed. To your "great compassion" you should now add informed opinions and soild biblical understanding. Such would be a good start.

Blessings,

Ian


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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:08/08/2017 6:08 AM)

About not judging.

The Bible says that Christians should not judge the morality nor the behaviour of others”.

This always comes from those supporting things like same-sex marriage.

Luke 6:37 is often quoted.

This is true, but taken out of context.

If we look further, we find Jesus did not relieve us of the need for discerning right and wrong.

Christians are not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously (Matt 7:1-5) but it does not preclude another person's basic character and we evaluate between good and bad people (sexual immorality in this case). Not a case of judging but pointing out the wrong and showing which direction to go. for ones own good.

Teaching about the Kingdom, of course, should be given in accordance with the learners spiritual capacity (V6).

Sadly,people don't realise that God is 'sovereign' and it is he that judges good and evil.

The bible is written and instruction is given for our own good, in this life and that to come.


Ralph



(Message edited by Biblianut On 29/08/2017 8:22 PM)
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:10/09/2017 5:46 AM)

 The question should be via the postal vote, Do you want freedom of choice/ belief/ speech,, I think 95% of Australians would say yes, so automaticlly if Homosexuals want to form a bond it has nothing to with those who don,t like it.

Second question on the postal vote should be,  Is the word marriage to be used for a man- woman only, again most Aussies would vote yes.

So now a gay couple can be joined together, under not marriage but let then come up with their own word, for the Male- female here's your Marriage certificate, for the gays here's your Civil bond/ civil Union/ Gay bondship, certificate or what ever word the gay want to use, except the word marriage, SO the question asking do you want gay marriage, will force a lot of christians to vote No, God gave humans the choice my way or no eternal life, I can not find a quote where God said be angry and despise Gays and those who don't live their life God's way.

Love you fellow man woman as your own child.
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:18/09/2017 5:24 PM)

 As a responsible Christian, it is comforting to note Churches confirm their commitment to the God given institution of marriage between a man and a women only. Those that don't have lost the plot completely.

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/in-depth/fact-check-what-do-christian-churches-really-think-about-same-sex-marriage/


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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:30/09/2017 11:56 PM)

There are 6 Scriptures about homosexuality in the Bible. Here's what they really say.

The Story of Sodom & Gomorrah (Genesis 19)

This story in Genesis 19 is probably the most popular passage used to condemn homosexuality. Here is how Vines explains it:

"God sends two angels disguised as men into the City of Sodom where the men of Sodom threatened to rape them. The angels blind the men, and God destroys the city. For centuries, this story was interpreted as God's judgment on same-sex relations, but the only form of same-sex behavior described is a threatened gang rape. "

So gang rape = not good (also not the same thing as homosexuality). But the recap of Sodom & Gomorrah found in Ezekial 16:49 highlights what Vines believes is the real point of the story:

"Now, this was the sin of your sister, Sodom. She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and unconcerned, they did not help the poor and needy."

In other words, everyone using this story as evidence of the sin of homosexuality, might be missing the point entirely.

When God calls homosexuality an abomination 
(Leviticus 18:22) (Leviticus 20:13)

Yep. We've all heard that Leviticus is where the Bible straight-up says that homosexual behavior is an abomination. And yes, it does. It also says that homosexuals should receive the death penalty (!!!). It also says the same thing about eating pork or shellfish, charging interest on loans, and a whole bunch of other restrictions that were a part of the Old Testament Law Code. But for Christians, the Old Testament doesn't (dare I say "shouldn't?") settle any issue because Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the law. Which is probably why most Christians today eat meat, use credit cards, wear makeup, and support equality for women. Because, as Hebrews 8:13 says, the old law is obsolete and aging.

When people turn away from God (Romans 1:26-27)

"Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones; in the same way, men committed shameful acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

This is where Vines really digs in on the the cultural context angle. In Biblical times, same-sex behavior was primarily seen as happening between adult men and adolescent boys (masters and servants — yikes), via prostitution, and by men who were married to women. In all of those cases, we can see why it would have been viewed as sinful, excessive, lustful, and against God's law. But he makes no mention of love, commitment, faithfulness, or the type of same-sex relationships that are at question in the debate around marriage. (By the way, Paul also says that men having long hair is "unnatural" and that women shouldn't speak in church, so it's clear Paul himself may have had some issues of his own.)

Uses of the Greek works "Malakoi" and "Arsenokoitai" 
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (1 Timothy 1:10)

These words are included in the New Testament's lists of people who will not inherit God's kingdom. And there has been much debate over their original meaning. (Translating ancient words is hard, guys.) Some believe them to mean homosexuality and sodomy, whereas others have said that the closest modern translation would be "dirty old men." Ha! Here's how Vines explains it:

Many modern translators have rendered these terms as sweeping statements about gay people, but the concept of sexual orientation didn't even exist in the ancient world. Yes, Paul did not take a positive view of same-sex relations (nor did he support women speaking in church...), but the context he was writing in is worlds apart from gay people in committed, monogamous relationships. The Bible never addresses the issues of sexual orientation or same-sex marriage, so there's no reason why faithful Christians can't support their gay brothers and sisters.

Fascinating, right?

If you'd like to learn more and hear Matthew Vines' story, check out the video above and his book "God and the Gay Christian."


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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:01/10/2017 6:12 PM)

Hi Mothy,

I don't know what is your point here, whether they are homosexual or not?

If one wishes to express their sexuality outside of marriage (ie one man and one women only) by having a sexual relationship, be it same-sex, adultery, another's spouse or whatever, is a SIN and will not go away unpunished.

What is written and my own experience, there is always a negative response having gone against that law set down by God, whether it is immediate or in time, there is always a reaction to it.

Old testament law, if broken, had an immediate punishment dished out to those that sinned.

In the New Testament that law is no longer imputed toward those that believe in Christ and repent of their actions. The “law is written in their hearts by the Holy Spirit” and do not continue in sin.

This does not apply to those of unbelief and continue in their activities as those that “Live by the law, will be judged by the law” and held in store at final judgement. Notwithstanding the negative impact of it now.

I see the whole narrative of the bible is showing us God put down the law(moral) for our own well being and good, in this life and that to come.

Going against it we reap the consequences.

Grace and peace

Ralph.

PS God puts much importance on sexual immorality: Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body........ 1Corinthians 6:12-18 




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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:05/10/2017 11:16 PM)

What's 'my' point? I haven't really shared my point. I did however find this article interesting for Christians to read. I don't believe the bible is written by a god to people so my perspective is different, of course.
All your other hooha about 'sin' is ridiculous though. I'll come back and make my point about that at some point.
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:07/10/2017 1:21 AM)

All your other hooha about 'sin' is ridiculous though. I'll come back and make my point about that at some point.

Looking forward to YOUR point of view on why there is 'morality' and 'immorality' on earth.


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Reply To MothandRust
(Date Posted:12/10/2017 1:31 AM)

G'day, Pete.

I look forwards to seeing you share your views on the subject of sin, but for now I'll point out I'm surprised you found the arguments put forwards in the "six Scriptures" piece convincing. I could easily drive an "exegetical bus" through the many and varied holes such argumentation contains, and having briefly 'Googled' the subject, I discovered a raft of biblical scholars already have! The positions generally proposed by the pro- crowd when appealing to Scripture invariably miss the mark historically, culturally and linguistically. This latest example is simply more of the same.

The rejection shown to gays by Christians and churches is indeed shameful, and should be sorely repented of. I indicated as much, in this very thread, six years ago (see post #10). However, suggesting that homosexuality as expressed in "a loving, committed, and monogamous way" is biblically a neutral matter, is naught but wishful thinking; it's simply an untenable position to adopt.

The following brief rebuttal of Matthew Vines' "six Scriptures" piece is nothing, if not interesting. Note particularly, the author is, himself, same-sex attracted:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/june-web-only/why-matthew-vines-is-wrong-about-bible-same-sex-relationshi.html?start=1

I've no doubts the 'Yes!' campaign will carry the day. And as I pointed out six years ago, such won't cause me to lose a wink's sleep! There are far more pressing issues for me to concern myself with. That many who profess Christian belief continue to support such a change, and that they do so via appeals to Christ's mandate to "love others", simply confirms that biblical and theological illiteracy continues to be a profound issue in many Australian communions and churches.

Blessings,

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 12/10/2017 9:08 PM)
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Biblianut
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Re:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:22/10/2017 5:07 AM)

 Not only does the biblical story of Sodom & Gomorrah show the homosexuality of the men but also the selfishness and self-gratification of the women also. It's history reveals the corruption and crime, that the people had become. Our nation/s are becoming just that, They are turning their backs on our Creator and giving over to their own selfish lusts which will lead to troubles and destruction. We as a people are becoming nothing more than, 'heathen'. God help us.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/18/prime-minister-theresa-may-addresses-pinknews-awards/


(Message edited by Biblianut On 22/10/2017 5:09 AM)
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Reply To Biblianut
(Date Posted:07/11/2017 6:39 AM)

Reply to Biblianut

All your other hooha about 'sin' is ridiculous though. I'll come back and make my point about that at some point.

Looking forward to YOUR point of view on why there is 'morality' and 'immorality' on earth.

Sounds like an exercise in futility... 
But I could start the argument by asking you if you think slavery is moral or immoral? There lies an interesting rabbit hole jaunt.

I'm certainly not going to argue scriptures with Ian. 

Children died gruesome deaths today when a car ran into a classroom. There is no god, and if there is his passiveness is 'evil'.
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Biblianut
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RE:Gay Marriages
(Date Posted:08/11/2017 6:37 AM)

Hi Mothy,

Slavery is an interesting topic. Simple answer from me, I believe is immoral in oppressing fellow mankind. The other side of the coin is of course ”slavery to Christ” and how Christianity justified it in the past. Lots of reading to do on that. Thank God slavery is illegal today.

Let me say my of point of view (Noetic structure “recognises the differing degrees of certainty, firmness, and conviction w/ which people hold their beliefs”), comes from reading, listening and excepting those that have done much more research and learning in languages (eg Ian's knowledge of the Kione creek), philosophy, different themes of bible studies and so forth, notwithstanding my own experiences on my religious journey.

There is much mystery in this life that is beyond human comprehension and understanding, we can only accept it, or not, by reason and logic.

We can define 'sin' as really as breaking of a rule set down by our creator. God gave ‘Adam and Eve’ only one rule and that was not to eat of the tree of good and evil (whatever that means) but they broke that rule, thus sin and evil comes into the picture. Mankind became separated from having a relationship with God.

It is a tragedy what happened today with the school event, brings us to morals, sin and evil. All three interact.

We question why there are tragedies and disasters. God seems to get the blame any way.

Two types of evil exist; moral evil, the troubles that man brings upon himself by wrongful deeds and natural evil (gratuitous evil), disasters like earth quakes, weather patterns, tsunamis, etc., which sometimes termed “acts of God.”

One can easily determine what is the moral evil that is brought about by man’s wrongful actions himself and suffers the consequence, but the question of natural evil why it happens or for what good reason does it happen is much more complex.

From a Christian POV, God allows these things to happen to bring about either a greater good or destroy a greater evil.

I believe only from the bible (Sola Scriptura) can a satisfactory conclusion be decided, but one has to believe first.

Ralph.

(sourced from N T Wright, Bill Mounce and bible) 

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Reply To MothandRust
(Date Posted:11/11/2017 11:32 PM)

G'day, Pete.

But I could start the argument by asking you if you think slavery is moral or immoral? There lies an interesting rabbit hole jaunt. I'd answer, "it depends". The binary way in which you framed your question doesn't consider context(s). I'm happy to tease out the implications of the question, if you're prepared to having your personal morality and consequent ethical understandings shaped.

I'm certainly not going to argue scriptures with Ian. Fair enough. Would you be prepared to have your underlying assumptions about a raft of issues tested instead? And would you be open to having the logic of your beliefs challenged as well? I submit the answers to these questions would likely open an even more interesting "rabbit hole jaunt" ;)

Children died gruesome deaths today when a car ran into a classroom. There is no god, and if there is his passiveness is 'evil'. Rubbish. Children die gruesome deaths every day; everywhere. The fact of death, even the death of innocents, says nothing about the existence or non-existence of the Christian God. Neither does the reality of death automatically imply or demand that God is somehow "passive" or "disinterested" about such things. Your charge is based on little more than kindergarten-level reasoning; it might be worthy of a Revivalist, but it should be beneath you.

Blessings,

Ian


(Message edited by Didaktikon On 18/11/2017 8:07 PM)
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