Fee
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(Date Posted:23/12/2004 13:17)
Reply to : welshmally
Maybe I'm just a wimp, and real melodeon players develop hands like coal miners after a while!
I really hope not !
How's it going?
I haven't tried to play any other boxes (apart from a brief go on a Baffetti and I found the bellows ran away with me...) so I can't really compare my Pokerwork with anything else!.
I was having a similar problem to you though and the advice I had (from Squeezy) was that you need to try to get your fingers to come down 'on top' of the bass buttons, so your hitting them more or less with the ends, rather than the flat of your finger, if you see what I mean, it's hard to explain!.
So you need your left hand as far through the strap as it needs to be to make this possible, and it needs to not be 'flapping about'. Since I seem to have possibly very thin uncoalminerish hands, Ive had to wrap a scarf round the strap to help keep my hand where it needs to be, and it's helped enormously!. I cut my admittedly quite long fingernails off as well (though you may not have that worry of course!!! )
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Theo Gibb 
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Posts:762
From: Great_britain 
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(Date Posted:25/12/2004 12:45)
Reply to : welshmally
I have a 6 month old Pokerwork, which is my first melodeon. As you may have seen in previous posts, I am still struggling with synchronising treble and bass, but my query now is with the strength of the springs on the bass buttons. They appear to be very hard to push in compared with other boxes I've tried, particularly after a long practice session.
Well, spring tension can be altered. But if the problem is getting worse over the course of a long practice session then it sounds to me like your fingers are getting tired! I can't think of a defect in the instrument which would lead to the buttons needing more force after a peried of use.
Even if you have strong dextrous fingers it takes time for them to get used to the particular pattern of repeated small movements which you need to play the bass. Since there is also a small but real risk or repetitive strain injury my suggestion is to have shorter practice sessions, but more of them. Or take a break part way through the longer sesssions. Warm up exercises for the hands are a good idea too, anything which GENTLY gets all the joints and muscles moving over their full range. The same sort of exercises are useful in the breaks of your long sessions too.
Do you use all four fingers? I only used two for about 6 months and was getting quite proficient. Then I went to a week long workshop with Andy Cutting at the first Folkworks adult summer school. Andy pointed out the obvious fact that 4 fingers match up exactly with 4 pairs of buttons. It was like starting all over again, but gives you much better control over the buttons, AND spreads the work out over 4 fingers.
I think you will find that in another 6 months the problem will have gone. If not, then would be the time to think about getting the spring tension reduced.
Theo
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welshmally
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Posts:67
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(Date Posted:26/12/2004 18:08)
Thank you both for your replies. I hope you had a good Christmas!
The bass buttons don't get heavier, they just feel that way as my fingers run out of steam! Yes, I guess more practice, more often will help - it's just a matter of time these days (and the familys' tolerance to my playing, of course!).
The technique of hitting the buttons with finger tips as opposed to pads is something I've tried to use for a while, but it does seem to affect my air button control - my only complaint with design of the Pokerwork is the operation of the air button, as you have to press down rather than inwards, if you see what I mean? i.e. the motion is different to all the other buttons.
There we are, it's still much more fun than the accordion!
Regards
WM
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Lester Bailey
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(Date Posted:27/12/2004 11:18)
WM
I have used a Gripmaster to strengthen my fingers on both hands for playing my English Concertina. I used it initially as I needed to stengthen my little fingers. As a side benefit it also appeared to speed my fingers up. They are available in guitar shops. As a small warning don't be macho like me and by the medium strength one as you will be unable to move it start with the light strength one.
Info here
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Open_G
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(Date Posted:28/12/2004 15:10)
WARNING, WARNING,
Be very careful with a gripmaster, they are really not the best thing for increasing strength for playing. They will increase gripstrength but not in a way that is beneficial to playing.
There is no better training for playing, than playing
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Lester Bailey
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Posts:344
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(Date Posted:28/12/2004 15:28)
Reply to : Open_G
WARNING, WARNING,Be very careful with a gripmaster, they are really not the best thing for increasing strength for playing. They will increase gripstrength but not in a way that is beneficial to playing.There is no better training for playing, than playing
My advice was presented in good faith from my personal experience. Are your dire warnings based on anything scientific or just your opinion?
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Fee
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(Date Posted:28/12/2004 17:42)
Reply to : welshmally
The technique of hitting the buttons with finger tips as opposed to pads is something I've tried to use for a while, but it does seem to affect my air button control - my only complaint with design ofthe Pokerwork is the operation of the air button, as you have to press down rather than inwards, if you see what I mean? i.e. the motion is different to all the other buttons.There we are, it's still much more fun than the accordion!RegardsWM
I'm trying to get my head round the air button thing at the moment and I'm finding it quite difficult to do; I think one time in ten I manage to achieve what I'm trying to do, ie get some air in there while still getting a sound out of it, the other nine it sounds like a dreadful wheezing/whistling thing. I guess it may be easier if the button was a 'push in' type thing but I've nothing to compare it with, which is probably a good thing, as I'll just persevere with it!
Cheers
Fee
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Open_G
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Posts:74
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(Date Posted:28/12/2004 17:47)
A bit of both really,
On a personal opinion level, I would steer clear of them because I would see a training sesh with one as a bit of a chore. I'm also a guitarist so I have been aware of them for years. -I'm a member of the Guitarist magazine forum and whenever they come up in discussions over there they are always slated as a "fitness" tool so I'm not alone in my opinions.
Scientifically they will build strength, and bulk to a point that is not necessary, (Even though this would not be noticable at a visual level) It would build up the anaerobic muscles in the fingers which are not used in playing an instrument (unless REALLY stiff buttons are part of your setup) Playing is aerobic for the vast majority of time, otherwise we would not be able to play for more than 45secs or so at a time. If you have a gripmaster set to a level equal to the stiffness of your buttons I suppose in theory it would be worthwhile, but why not sit with your beloved instrument working on the buttons even if you are not playing any notes.
Hope I have explained all that OK
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Folkiekay
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Posts:85
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(Date Posted:28/12/2004 22:47)
>>>I'm trying to get my head round the air button thing at the moment and I'm finding it quite difficult to do; I think one time in ten I manage to achieve what I'm trying to do, ie get some air in there while still getting a sound out of it, the other nine it sounds like a dreadful wheezing/whistling thing. I guess it may be easier if the button was a 'push in' type thing but I've nothing to compare it with, which is probably a good thing, as I'll just persevere with it!<<<
When I first started to play, I had a Hohner Erica, and I had a hard time with that air button. I had barely learned to play anything and then got a Castagnari that had a push in air button, and for me it made all the difference in the world. I was actually able to play using that type of air button. When I had my Hyde box built, I made sure it would have a push in air button. I still can barely play a hohner because of the way the air button is designed. It must just be me though - lots of people here in Texas play conjunto music on hohners, and they don't seem to have any problems at all.
Kay
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Open_G
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Posts:74
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(Date Posted:29/12/2004 11:20)
A bit of a side issue, but has anyone else had any physiological problems resulting from Hohner Air levers. When I have been playing for a while I have been known to suffer shooting neural pains accross my thumb joint purely from the use of the air button. I found this pretty worrying actually considering I am still in my 20s.
Strangely I managed to cure it by 90% by wearing a copper/magnetic bracelet on my left wrist, (maybe I should add that I'm a bit of a sceptic about these things normally)
Reply to : Folkiekay
>>>I'm trying to get my head round the air button thing at the moment and I'm finding it quite difficult to do; I think one time in ten I manage to achieve what I'm trying to do, ie get some air in there while still getting a sound out of it, the other nine it sounds like a dreadful wheezing/whistling thing. I guess it may be easier if the button was a 'push in' type thing but I've nothing to compare it with, which is probably a good thing, as I'll just persevere with it!<<<When I first started to play, I had a Hohner Erica, and I had a hard time with that air button. I had barely learned to play anything and then got a Castagnari that had a push in air button, and for me it made all the difference in the world. I was actually able to play using that type of air button. When I had my Hyde box built, I made sure it would have
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Theo Gibb
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Posts:762
From: Great_britain
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(Date Posted:29/12/2004 12:02)
Reply to : Open_G
A bit of a side issue, but has anyone else had any physiological problems resulting from Hohner Air levers. When I have been playing for a while I have been known to suffer shooting neural pains accross my thumb joint purely from the use of the air button. I found this pretty worrying actually considering I am still in my 20s.Strangely I managed to cure it by 90% by wearing a copper/magnetic bracelet on my left wrist, (maybeI should add that I'm a bit of a sceptic about these things normally)
Clive
I had almost exactly the same experience but with a push type air button on an Italian box. I'd previously played a Hohner for about a year with no problems, and I was quite a bit older - late 40s. It is tempting to fucus on the particular type of button, but I'm afraid that its the usual answer - regular moderate practice, don't overdo it and you will eventally realise that the problem has faded away.
I suspect that your problem would have resolved anyway, even without the copper bracelet, its just an adjustment process that your body goes through to get used to repetitive movement. The pain is a warning from your body - ignore it and it will get worse, go carefully and your body can adapt.
I'm reminded of Mally's beginners book, where at the end of each chapter there is a different version of "keep practising"
Theo
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Folkiekay
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(Date Posted:29/12/2004 20:57)
>>>>A bit of a side issue, but has anyone else had any physiological problems resulting from Hohner Air levers. When I have been playing for a while I have been known to suffer shooting neural pains accross my thumb joint purely from the use of the air button. I found this pretty worrying actually considering I am still in my 20s.
Strangely I managed to cure it by 90% by wearing a copper/magnetic bracelet on my left wrist, (maybe I should add that I'm a bit of a sceptic about these things normally) <<<<<
It might be a good idea to try some kind of box that has a push in air button - borrow one or something, and play the same amount of time you would normally play on a hohner, and see if you have the same problem. It'd be nice to see that someone had an easy way to make the air button on a hohner push in - some kind of easy fix like putting leather under the treble keyboard to keep the buttons from going down in the holes. Guess that's asking a bit much though..:-)
Kay
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Open_G
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Posts:74
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(Date Posted:29/12/2004 21:36)
Been there, done that.
I have spent similar amounts of time playing a Castagnari Sander and an Isis and neither have caused any problems at all, it simply seems to be the action required on the Hohner that causes all the problems. I have fairly (very) large hands so need to use the entire joint to move the button (i.e. I can't use the knuckle of the thumb at all) -I don't know whether smaller handed people do it in this way
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Pushpull
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(Date Posted:29/12/2004 22:13)
Reply to : Folkiekay
When I first started to play, I had a Hohner Erica, and I had a hard time with that air button. I had barely learned to play anything and then got a Castagnari that had a push in air button, and for me it made all the difference in the world.
I agree Kay, I found the pokerwork air button a real pain but once I bought a Tommy, it was almost automatic. I would say though, in some defence of the pokerwork, that when I now go back to it I find the air button is OK.
Roy.
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Fee
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(Date Posted:30/12/2004 14:19)
Reply to : Pushpull
Reply to : FolkiekayWhen I first started to play, I had a Hohner Erica, and I had a hard time with that air button. I had barely learned to play anything and then got a Castagnari that had a push in air button, and for me it made all the difference in the world.I agree Kay, I found the pokerwork air button a real pain but once I bought a Tommy, it was almost automatic. I would say though, in some defence of the pokerwork, that when I now go back to it I find the air button is OK.Roy.
Blimey!. I haven't had any physiological pain caused by the Hohner air button (yet!) only physchological  . I sit here sometimes thinking 'oh, it' just me who can't do this' about whatever I'm trying to learn and then I find out loads of people have similar issues and it makes me feel much less frustrated, what a marvellous site this is!.
Fee
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Folkiekay
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Posts:85
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(Date Posted:30/12/2004 20:26)
I have never tried using the knuckle of my thumb to use the air button on a hohner - I'm at work and can't try it right now, or I would.......though I don't think that would work for me. Personally to me it is a design flaw. I can play on a hohner, but I can't play fast tunes very well. Occasionally I'll pick up that erica and try it again, with the same results.....after a few tunes, I just give up.
Kay
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Lester Bailey
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Posts:344
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(Date Posted:30/12/2004 20:53)
Back in my younger days I played both Pokerworks and Ericas and had the same problem with reaching the air button. In the end I modified the box by extending the slot in which the button moved and bent the operating lever to move the contact point further down the box. Relatively simple to do if you are brave.
Alternatively you can take Andy Cutting's advice and play you basses with all four fingers of the left hand thus moving your thumb further up the box, mind you I find it just about impossible 
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welshmally
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Posts:67
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(Date Posted:03/01/2005 00:31)
Reply to : goldfrog
Back in my younger days I played both Pokerworks and Ericas and had the same problem with reaching the air button. In the end I modified the box by extending the slot in which the button moved and bent the operating lever to move the contact point further down the box. Relatively simple to do if you are brave.Alternatively you can take Andy Cutting's advice and play you basses with all four fingers of the left hand thus moving your thumb further up the box, mind you I find it just about impossible
Hmmm, so much talk about 1 little button!! I do find it fascinating that it can generate such a lot of constructive discussion. I too tried my brother's Bafetti, and found the push type air button muich easier.
I'm not convinced by the Gripmaster argument either way yet. If you use it rapidly for a very short time, then surely that will be an anaerobic type of excercise, which will improve speed, but used slowly over a long period will be aerobic, thus developing strength and stamina. So it may well depend upon the method of excercise rather than the device itself, but I'm no expert. On balance, I would say that practicing is more fun than excercising, though!!! And no, I can't use my little finger to press the bass buttons either!
WM
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Folkiekay
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Posts:85
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(Date Posted:03/01/2005 19:02)
I started out playing the basses using just two fingers - that was the first month. And then someone told me I should use all four. I think it's more a matter of what one is used to doing. I can't imagine not using four now, but I know some players who use three most of the time. They only use the pinky finger when they absolutely have to. There probably isn't a right or wrong way - whatever works. In my experience though - using four fingers all the time - it doesn't help with that air button on a hohner......to me it is sort of like patting my head and rubbing my belly at the same time - impossible!!
Kay
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Fee
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(Date Posted:03/01/2005 21:07)
Reply to : Folkiekay
I started out playing the basses using just two fingers - that was the first month. And then someone told me I should use all four. I think it's more a matter of what one is used to doing. I can't imagine not using four now, but I know some players who use three most of the time. They only use the pinky finger when they absolutely have to. There probably isn't a right or wrong way - whatever works. In my experience though - using four fingers all the time - it doesn't help with that air button on a hohner......to me it is sort of like patting my head and rubbing my belly at the same time - impossible!!Kay
..in the spirit of 'I'll try anything once ' I just tried to play something I can play OK using my little finger to play the basses as well as th other three (I'm used to three) I can see why it would be a useful thing to be able to do but it completely confused nme!. Though it felt like my air button thumb was in a better position than it was before...I know what you mean about the head patting thing though 
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Open_G
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Posts:74
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(Date Posted:04/01/2005 13:15)
In the spirit of adventure I tried the 4 finger thing for bass last night, I thought that, also playing guitar, my fingers would have no trouble with this. My cockiness and confidence was obviously misplaced as I found it really uncomfortable. -Each to their own but seriously?
I think I'll stick with what I know best
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Steve_freereeder
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Posts:405
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(Date Posted:04/01/2005 13:48)
At Melodeons at Witney in 2003, Andy Cutting ran a workshop session centred around using the basses and chords imaginatively. This involved using all 4 LH fingers on basses/chords (sometimes all at once!). Yes - it was hard at first, for those of us (including me) who were 3-finger-users, but with a bit of practice it got easier.
Fourteen months on, I am still not entirely comfortable with the technique, and tend to lapse into 3 finger mode, because that's the 'bad habit' legacy of years of previous playing. But I think it's worth persevering.
Cheers,
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Dazbo
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(Date Posted:05/01/2005 10:43)
I have the habit of playing mainly with the first two fingers, especially when playing on the G row but for the D row I tend now to use all 4 fingers for the more complicated bass arrangements and with just using the first 2 fingers for simpler arrangements or slower tunes. It sounds awkward but it works okay for me (I wouldn't contemplate playing on the G row and just using the third and little finger of the left hand although I'm sure it's a good technique to learn).
Darren
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Ben Dauncey
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(Date Posted:11/04/2005 19:12)
Reply to : welshmally
I have a 6 month old Pokerwork, which is my first melodeon. As you may have seen in previous posts, I am still struggling with synchronising treble and bass, but my query now is with the strength of the springs on the bass buttons. They appear to be very hard to push in compared with other boxes I've tried, particularly after a long practice session. Is this just me, and if not, has anybody got a solution? I don't think I've got particularly weak fingers! (I use a range of tools at work on a daily basis). Maybe I'm just a wimp, and real melodeon players develop hands like coal miners after a while!BTW, a very Peaceful Christmas to all and a Happy and Prosperous New Year, and I look forward to meeting more box players in the future who frequent South Wales!WM
hi weshmally
i know what you mean about the honer bass buttons the springs are quite strong i use to play a honer and i got some old springs that had softed up and put them in. the other thing i use to do was to use a spong ball to build up the mussles in my hand.
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Anonymous
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(Date Posted:11/04/2005 20:51)
$%*'`[Northern Melodeon]%*'`@Reply to : Ben Dauncey
Hi Ben,
At the end of your post, it says "Castagnari benny 18" -- what does this refer to?
-Andy
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Ben Dauncey
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(Date Posted:22/05/2005 18:20)
Reply to : Northern Melodeon [Anonymous]
Reply to : Ben DaunceyHi Ben,At the end of your post, it says "Castagnari benny 18" -- what does this refer to?-Andy
well i use to play for a living and i got castagnari to make me a benny with an 18 bass. it is as far as i know a one off i am going to be selling it this year as i am saving for a handry 18.
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