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Title: LBT, Veral Smith, and Ross Seyfried's writings.................
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Frank237
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 04:52:56)
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I was looking throughHandloader # 225 the Oct 2003 issue. Ross Seyfried wrote an article about the return of the LBT Company and a bit about Veral Smith. He spoke VERY highly of Smith, his writings,his molds and his bullets use on game.I tend to take what I read in the gun rags with a grain of salt. The entire article was pretty much a commercial for Veral Smith and the LBT designs,etc. I have always held bothRifleandHandloadermagazines to be of a higher level than the regular gun rags. Just wondering if the article was valid or Smith and Seyfried are just good buddies and Ross is giving him a plug.I have the current price and information sheet from LBT and the prices for the molds are pretty high. Are these molds and the LBT bullet design THAT GOOD??Not trying to start a pissin' match with Smith or Seyfried, just want to cut through the BS if there was any. I'm sort of new to CURRENT cast bullet technology and have an inquiring mind.FN in MT
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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 06:43:55)

IMHO, yes Ross and Veral are good buddies.   Ross really does admire and use Veral's molds.  Ross is one of the few gunwriters who knows what he is talking about.  Like many people, Ross wanted to help Veral get back on his feet after that long unpaid vacation Veral took.  Shortly after Ross's article hit the newstands Veral raised his prices into the stratosphere.

I used one of Veral's bullets for several years and was extremely happy with the way it shot.  The LBT molds that I used were only mediocre casters, though I do give LBT molds very high points for having minimal out-of-roundness.  The molds that I purchased from Veral cast 0.002" larger than what I specified, which didn't bother me in the least, just that it wasn't quite what I had been led to expect.  I didn't have any luck with his ogival wadcutters or with his bullet lube, and while I accept the fact that different guns like different loads, I became pretty skeptical of his used-car-salesman manner of talking. 

I admire Veral for being an independent thinker and especially for challenging the cowboy gunwriters who preached that semiwadcutters were the one and only bullet for wheelguns.  The world needs more independent thinkers.

There are many molds to choose from these days.  Veral's are good but they are pretty spendy.

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waksupi
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 08:11:18)

Frank - I would say that Mountain molds are a lot better value, from what we hear from thier users. And he is honest to deal with. For what you pay Veral, you can buy nearly two molds from Dan.
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350mag
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 10:56:44)

I don't really want to start anything and I don't know Ross Seyfried or Veral Smith. I also have never used an LBT mold or shot any of that design. That being said, Ross must be the most knowledgable hunter, caster and reloader in the world! At least that is the way it comes acroos to me as I read his articles. I belive It was Lar45 that was mentioned in one of the more recent columns about reloading for his Howdah pistol. Ross basically inplied that it was too dangerous for anybody to be reloading for a pinfire except for very mild BP loads. However, he informed us that we would just have to wait until he wrote the definitive article on pinfires in the future and then we could do it safely. I wonder how he has gotten to be such an expert. I would suspect either divine intervention or he experiments just like we do and then he writes about it. Does that make him an expert? I appreciate the fact that he experiments on interesting guns and loads. I enjoy reading about them, but I don't know that makes him THE expert. Maybe I am now THE expert on 240gr 357 loads, or Starmetal is THE expert on sized down 7mm and Buckshot is THE expert on Whitworth ML. I think those of us here just try stuff in a safe and semi sane manner and see how it comes out, just like the writers do. The list of experts on this board could go on and on and appears to me to have better claim to the title than most of the gun writers. I accept that they are knowledgable about many things but I learn more reading right here.
I wish that some of our experts here would write some longer article length posts here. I have enjoyed the stories that Buckshot has posted about his Mauser projects, I wish Waksupi would post showing the step by step of making a stock like on his 358, maybe Old Feller can compile his posts on the 444 Terminator project, and Lar45 can do a long post on his singleshot pistol project when it is done. I would much rather read that kind of article here, from people I feel I know, then from self styled expert in a magazine. By the way, I throw Mike Venturino into that same catagory.
Sorry about the long winded rant, but I have had it coming on for a while. There may be some experts out there, but there are just as many here and we generally don't talk down to each other in an effort to make ourselves seem great.
Ken
Oh yeah, Felix really is the expert in lubes as far as I can tell. He knows his stuff and has the science to back it up. Maybe Veral could learn a little something about humility from him.

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Beau Cassidy
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 14:26:54)

I learned way back that the gun magazine articles are too commercialized. I remember several years ago when Ross Seyfried wrote about a custom maker (Applegate perhaps) making a certain kind or caliber of mold. I called him up and he said that Seyfried had talked to him about the mold but he didn't make it at the time although it was something he had considered. The next thing the custom mold maker knows is his name is in an article telling the world he makes the mold in question. Comunication breakdown? Doubt it. Somebody just needed to write an article. Trust your own judgement and learn from the experience here. Expect to make mistakes and learn from them.

Beau

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 15:23:26)

I'm not a big reader of the gunrags, either.  I even let my 18-year subscription to Handloader lapse this year--it's not much better than the rest of the mass-market pap over the past few years.

Far as I'm concerned--THIS PLACE is the "front end" of cast boolit technology, and a LOT of other shooting information as well. 

Ross Seyfried did an article not long ago in Handloader about paper patching--it was nicely done, and conveyed no discernable misinformation--quite a feat for a gunrag article.  Buckshot more recently did the same thing here--with a lot less fluff and a lot more information.   

I hope Mr. Smith does well in his newly-freed status.  I get the impression that a lot of his marketing and business acumen is not reality-based, however--contrast the price of his products against the Lee competition which features pretty close "knock-offs" of his WFN designs.  Also, the course of conduct he engaged in that ultimately landed him in prison was not too realistic, either.  You had better expect that if you get creative with tax payments to Uncle and are engaged in a gun-related enterprise that Uncle will consider you to be a very finely crafted lightning rod and charge you accordingly.    

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GradyL56
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 15:40:17)

Hi all. I got an LBT mold just before he went up on prices -- it is my only --I guess custom mold -- it is well made - but it is and has been a very difficult mold to cast well with -- I am not an expert but I have been casting since 1978 or so - I tired and tried as per the instructions with the mold but poor and spotty results - finally tired again like I have always done with my RCBS dipper -- I have not used a bottom pour for a while now- and now am finally getting really good results - I do not know what has changed ?  Broken in?  I have had the mold since last fall and it took this long --now I am happy with the bullets it makes and took a doe with some -- ( a friend wounded her first and we tracked her for more than two hours it took several shots on my part - before I finally got a standing shot and finished it all)  anyway it is a good mold but picky as to how it will perform.  I am currently being tempted by  a brass mold from Mountain molds --btw my mold is a wlngc .41 cal. 230 gr --sized lubed with gc's it weighs 239
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Frank237
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 17:54:41)

"Unpaid Vacation"    THAT right there speaks volumes to ME regarding Mr. Smith. Add in the arrogance that one gets from his information/price sheet and I know enough to stay away. I'll buy from Mtn Molds instead.

 I look at Seyfried a bit differently too. I have always enjoyed the old Rifle and Handloader magazines.  Back when Ken Waters did the old "Pet Loads" articles, Finn Aagaard was still contributing,etc.  I still like reading them but no matter how I try the vast majority of the Seyfried articles, ,just don't relate to any sort of REAL WORLD  situations I ever experience. I don't have any Martini big bore rifles or Howdah pistols in my area gun shops. To me the majority of his articles WASTE PRECIOUS SPACE that could be used for articles that are more "real world" based.

 To many its probably fun to read about Ross's exploits with long range .310 Martini's or  4 bore doubles so thats fine too.

 Thanks as always Gentleman......... FN in MT


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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 18:10:44)

The works of both Ken Waters and Finn Aagaard are best in the business, and I miss their contributions VERY much. 
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NVcurmudgeon
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 18:27:32)

Reply to Deputy Al:  Like you, I gave up on Rifle first, then Handloader.  First I a wrote a plea about the decline of Rifle and got a three page, single spaced, apologia from Mr. Seyfried.  I was exercised about the drop in the quality of writing, while giving the peasants colored pictures.  Mr. Seyfried's position was that the Wolfe publications had to turn themselves into profusely illustrated, cutesy written, technically insubstantial,  mass market publications in order to survive.  However, I could rest assured that this appeal to Joe Sixpack would be done with no diminuition in the quality that had made me one of the few, proud, enlightened, Wolfe readers.  (All the above colorful phrases are mine, not Mr. Seyfried's.)  I then renewed for two, instead of my usual three, years.  Rifle did not redeem itself IMHO during this probationary period.  By then, the rot had spread to Handloader and I let it lapse also.   I remember Ross Seyfried as a rather decent writer, or at least very credible on very powerful loads for big-bore revolvers, but he is, IMHO, an absymal editor.  He hired, what I perceive to be, a stable of hacks to replace a few geniuses and some worthy contributions from readers.  All the while superimposing a thick layer of colorful trinkets to dazzle the ignorant.  Perhaps I am being unfair to Mr. Seyfried, he may be only carrying out a distasteful policy imposed upon him by his bean-counting betters.  In that case, I submit that Mr. Seyfried is without artistic integrity.  Resigning in protest, may not carry one far in the corporate world, but one's  professional soul is worth something. 

Re Veral Smith:  My only contact is through his book.  Interesting reading, written in a style evocative  of Preston Tucker or Roy Weatherby.  Much of it is beyond my current understanding, and while I may come to trust him on cast bullets,  I wouldn't seek his financial advice, curmudgeon

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Maven
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 19:02:05)

I won't comment about Seyfried or Smith, but rather, about the quality of LBT molds, of which I have four (all purchased before Smith's self-inflicted legal troubles).  The molds are well-made, i.e., they're made to fit your particlular gun, which they most certainly do.  The bullets they produce are certainly accurate and never stick in the cavities.  However, casting can be a bit of a challenge as others have indicated.  Firstly, initial casting temperature has to be high, i.e., 800 deg. F.  Then there's the problem of venting since the sprue cutters are typically too tight.  Once loosened, things improve.  Lastly, some LBT molds cast better after the cavities are smoked, but others do not.  Just why this is so escapes me.  As for value, I'd look to Mountain Molds or to Jim Allison (Cast Bullet Enterprises) for a mold rather than LBT, given their current pricing.  ...Maven  

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PJGunner
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 21:16:18)

OK. First off, you do Mr. Seyfried wrong in blaming him for the piss poor quality of the articles. The editor in chief is Dave Scovill, not Ross Seyfried.

I'm not defending Veral Smith either. I'm willing to bet he still has massive lawyers fees to pay off. I do have one of his mold that came in abox full of molds sitting on a table at a gun show. The guy wouldn't sell me the LBT mold as a single item, I had to buy the whole box of molds. IIRC, there were about ten or twelve molds in the box of various brand, mostly Lyman including one hell of a weird wadcutter type of 245 gr. (Lyman #429325) First shot from that erratic flying slug wiped out my chronograph. I also have his bullet hardness tester which was also buried in that box of molds.

Ross Seyfried has been there and done it several times over, including being an African professional hunter. he's got a lot more guts than most of us taking on cape buffalo with a handgun. I'd personally feel more comfortable with Ma Duece .50 BMG. he does talk about some interesting guns, although I'll probably never own any of that type. Can't afford 'em.

Before I forget, the LBT mold casts one of the most accurate bullets I've found in any of my .44s, Spl. or mag.

As low as RIFLE and HANDLOADER have sunk, they're still some of the best around. I get my gun rags to hopefully learn something. I do get more from those two than any of the others.

Let's face it, those guys write to pay the bills, send their kids to college, buy the wife a trinket now and then, just like us. It's a damn good possibility they'd rather write about what really interests them gunwise, but the editor probably won't let them.

Anyway, I always did think Scovill was a bit of a dip. I base that on a letter I got from him that I felt was demeaning and that I was being talked down to. Also, he was at my range one day, and when I went to talk to him, he turned away as if I was some kind of untouchable. It has been my personal opinion that he is more resposible for the downgrading of RIFLE and HANDLOADER than any of the previous editor's in chief.

Paul B.

"What good fortune for government that the people do not think." Adolph Hitler

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Bass Ackward
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(Date Posted:03/15/2004 21:22:33)

Reply to : Frank237


I was looking throughHandloader # 225 the Oct 2003 issue. Ross Seyfried wrote an article about the return of the LBT Company and a bit about Veral Smith. He spoke VERY highly of Smith, his writings,his molds and his bullets use on game.

I have met Ross twice.  Once about 25 years ago when he was "Ross" and last year now that he is "Mr Seyfried".  Quite a metamorphsis.  Then he was earger to learn and open.  Now what he doesn't know, isn't worth knowing.  Back then he was eager to answer questions and today, questions are a PIA.  But he always liked Veral's molds from 20 years ago.  I have two LBT molds left now having just sold one not to far back.  All cast well for me without the need for any tricks or special techniques.  But his molds are now made of gold. 

The last 6 molds I have purchased have been from Dan with a seventh in the works as this is written and been satisfied with each and every one to date.  Don't get me wrong, factory molds got me here.  Today, I just want more.

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NVcurmudgeon
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 06:20:22)

Reply to : PJGunner


OK. First off, you do Mr. Seyfried wrong in blaming him for the piss poor quality of the articles. The editor in chief is Dave Scovill, not Ross Seyfried.I'm not defending Veral Smith either. I'm willing to bet he still has massive lawyers fees to pay off. I do have one of his mold that came in abox full of molds sitting on a table at a gun show. The guy wouldn't sell me the LBT mold as a single item, I had to buy the whole box of molds. IIRC, there were about ten or twelve molds in the box of various brand, mostly Lyman including one hell of a weird wadcutter type of 245 gr. (Lyman #429325) First shot from that erratic flying slug wiped out my chronograph. I also have his bullet hardness tester which was also buried in that box of molds.Ross Seyfried has been there and done it several times over, including being an African professional hunter. he's g

PJGunner, Your post rang a 13 year-old bell with me, so I went out to the garage and dug through my piles of vintage rifle and Handloader magazines.  You are absolutely correct, Dave Scovill became Editor with the April May 1990 editions of the magazines, Rifle #128 and Handloader #144 My sincerest apologies to Mr. Seyfried, and to anybody reading this board that I have misled by my inaccuracy.  Mr. Scovill is the one who sent me the long letter.  I think the only thing correct I said about Mr. Seyfried was that he is the one with the big revolvers.  I became aware of the decline in Rifle first, sometime in the first half of 1991, about a year after Mr. Scovill took over.  I think my last subscription lapsed in 1993, so it's been a long time since I read a Wolfe publication.   In my eagerness to point out that the emperor had no clothes, I mistakenly pointed out the prime minister instead.  CRS strikes again, curmudgeon

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Crazy Mark
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 06:43:11)

I chose to not renew my subscriptions to any of the reloading/gun mags because they chose to basically have the same things over and over and I can't afford 90% of the guns they preview. One did have a milsurp of the month but that became of the 2 months and then 3 months. I find more info in the old reloading/shooting manuals than any of the so called gun rags. I like the older moulds of  Cramer, Saeco, Bond, Lyman and RCBS rather than the newer Lymans or RCBS. I have 2 older steel NEI moulds and they cast good bullets also.    Mark

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lar45
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 09:28:37)

I don't have an LBT mold, nor have I used one.

I do have some MountainMolds molds and really like them. They are easy to cast with and produce excellent boolits.

I do enjoy Ross's articles and think that he goes beyond the Mealy mouthed regurgitation of what the other mags spew forth on a periodic basis.  I was reading the NRA hunter mag today and there was a question posted about a guy useing a 357 for deer and has taken a few with good results, but his buddies tell him he is undergunned.  the person replying states you have had good results, but the general consensus is the 357 is marginal and I have to remain in the middle of the road...... Blah Blah Blah, No real answer.  I find that more offensive than an answer one way or the other with justification.

I took a little Mulie with a 357 110JHP open sights, off hand 80yds, one shot, went 40yds and dead against a tree.  Bullet still weighed 110gns and was found in the off side sholder after takeing out both lungs.  Sure sounds marginal to me!  maybe if he had gone 45yds, I might not have found him?

Dan reports that he shot a Black Bear with his 357 snubbie.  He still has both hands and feet and he didn't get half his face eaten off.  Marginal?  Not that day.

Some of Ross's articles about shooting Elk with old rifles shooting cast he says, the paper ballistics show that this combination should not be effective at all, but here is a pic of my Elk taken without any problems.  I get the impression that he thinks for himself and is qualified to write on many subjects, not just spew out what someone else wrote about 3 years ago.

I was surprized to get a reply from Mr. Seyfried about my 70cal howda loading.  I was even more surprized to see it in print.  He did prefice the responce with a strong danger warning, but then went on to say what he thought was the best approach to go about it.  I'm still waiting on the pinfire loading article.

Once you get past the idea that this is totaly different, then the hardest part once you've the brass made is to use some tweezers to hold the muzzle loader cap in the base of the case while pushing the pin down on it.  Then load as usual remembering that it must be a low pressure load as there is a hole in the side of the case.

Oh, one more thing, I renewed a 2year subscription to the handloader and rifle mags.  I think that there is still some real gun related stuff in them besides buy this new plastic gizmo.

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8mmshooter
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 12:16:39)

Gentlemen: I don't have alot of experience with either Veral Smith or the moulds you are all talkin about as all I have experience with is Lee and Lyman moulds bein a newbie and all. All in all I feel much more compelled to study and try and duplicate all of your results more so than some gun writers info as I feel you fellas are really on the up and up with your info. Of course your not in the market tryin to promote the latest wizz bank mould or shootin aide. As most of your livelihoods don't depend on said results and your info is freely given to help further the sport so to speak; not under commercial success. What I'm tryin to say is thanks for the info and service you all provide this newbie. You fellars are the " real experts as far as I can see" 8mmshooter
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DOUBLEJK
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 13:38:28)

Howdy all...

 Been a while since I posted...but I've been checkin' in from time to time fer the best info n intertainment available...

Ross used to be a neighbor before he hit the big time....ranched bout 30 miles west of us....Nice folk's....He's probably the best pistol shooter I've ever personally seen...and I still enjoy his articles even if Handloader n Rifle ain't what they used ta be...

Veral was about the only way to go if you wanted a mold of your own design for quite a spell...I have 17 of em dating from the late 70's....most cast just like they were ordered too...pricey...Yep...and his bullet lubes only 2nd ta FWFL...

I now have 4 of Dan's molds....all brass n cast as good as they look....pricey...nope....Just as good as Verals n prettier too....bet I have more of em in the future...

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Dutch4122
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 14:21:35)

Reply to : 8mmshooter

Gentlemen: I don't have alot of experience with either Veral Smith or the moulds you are all talkin about as all I have experience with is Lee and Lyman moulds bein a newbie and all. All in all I feel much more compelled to study and try and duplicate all of your results more so than some gun writers info as I feel you fellas are really on the up and up with your info. Of course your not in the market tryin to promote the latest wizz bank mould or shootin aide. As most of your livelihoods don't depend on said results and your info is freely given to help further the sport so to speak; not under commercial success. What I'm tryin to say is thanks for the info and service you all provide this newbie. You fellars are the " real experts as far as I can see" 8mmshooter

I'll second that!  The info I've been able to gleen from sources such as this BB has been worth its weight in gold compared to the gun rags.  Even though I've chosen to go the more expensive route equipment wise you folks have still saved me a lot of time, effort, and money that would have been wasted on substandard equipment and methods.

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Junior1942
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 16:05:33)

For several years I've used nothing but el cheapo Lee aluminum molds.  No problems and bunches and bunches of very good bullets.

As far as gun rags and their writers, I wised up on them a couple of years ago when the "Gun Editor" of my favorite rag wrote an article about a $3,000 Bigname varmint rifle. Groups--with a varmint scope--averaged 2 7/8" at 100 yards.  He called that "acceptable accuracy."  Not!!!  The same issue of the rag contained a full page, color ad for Bigname Company.  2 + 2 = 4

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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 17:22:25)

I meant no disrespect to Mr. Seyfried or to Mr. Smith with what I wrote above.  No doubt about it--both men have been there and done that in their respective fields. 

I guess what troubles me is the departure of intellectual honesty in the face of commercial pressures of the marketplace.  I'm sure this is far more the responsibility of the editorial staffs than of the writers whose bylines undersign the articles.  Further--if what Dave Scoville said to Curmudgeon is correct--the only way for a gun magazine to succeed commercially is to become a pimp with PA system for the gunmakers whose products aren't real impressive.  Apparently, "Rifle" and "Handloader" weren't doing well being objective and remaining focused on the higher end of hobby interest.  THAT is distressing to hear.  Of course, I don't know what color the sky is in Mr. Scoville's world, either.  Some shade of green, perhaps.

The reverse edge of this sword is this--we as a group don't offer much to the gunmaker/aftermarket industry.  We buy molds and primers.  We use surplus military powders whenever appropriate and often when it isn't.  Our boolits are made from scrap metal and wheelweights found on the roadside.  We scrounge casings from the ranges and plinking grounds.  We eschew the fat-cased/tiny-necked latest and greatest whiz-bang calibers and the rifles of indifferent quality that chamber them, while happily zapping away at paper targets and game with milsurps and other arms 2-4 generations old.  Worst of all in their eyes--we spare no effort to point out the mediocrity of their products and the phony nature of the panderers who hawk their wares.

I submit that we as a group are a major PITA to much of the firearms industry as it exists today--and that they treat us with poorly-concealed contempt should come as no surprise.  We are a tangible threat to how they do business, based on our collective experience and knowledge that demonstrates--to paraphrase Curmudgeon--that the Emperor has no clothes.   

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waksupi
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 17:48:34)

Well said, Deputy Al. I think you have put your finger on both us, and them.
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BruceB
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 18:19:22)


Mixed feelings, here....very mixed feelings.

I'm truly sorry to see the state to which Handloader and Rifle magazines have fallen. My "collection" (a poor word to describe a motley heap of hundreds of magazines with many gaps in the continuity) goes right back to Rifle #1. About every year or so, I find it necessary to start at one end of the heap and read right through to the other end, and I still find valuable info that pertains to my interests or what I happen to be engaged in.

Earlier issues had little of the fancy color work and glitzy presentation of the current magazines, but were far more informative and interesting. However, I still find items of value in the current magazines...just not as often as previously. I no longer subscribe to them, but our local mag racks have them and I buy issues which appear worth the money.

I do NOT require a magazine to always have features concerning my immediate areas of interest, which are usually rather narrowly focused. When my subscription copies arrived, I'd first leaf through the mag and see what it contained, then go back and read the articles which might interest me for immediate purposes, then leaf back-to-front checking for new items in advertising, and then read EVERY ARTICLE in the magazine, due to my avid curiosity about everything to do with shooting and handloading. This gave me a rather deep grounding in special-purpose shotshell loading, for one example among many, even though I never found it necessary to engage in such loading to any great extent.....but I KNOW HOW!

Authors....I don't care about the person-to-person foibles of authors, in their relationships with me or other readers. Many of our most-revered shooting scribes were less-than-wonderful on a personal level....Warren Page, Jack O'Connor, Chas Askins, and many others could be very "prick"ly folks on occasion, by reliable accounts. I judge them by their writings, and not by their reputed social failings.

Ross Seyfried, to me, is a highly-valued resource and his writings are extremely interesting to me. Many of the topics he chooses to address are so far off the beaten track that to consider him a whore for the "gun industry" is simply ludicrous. Who in the gun industry CARES that someone out here wants to load pinfire cartridges? Who in the industry DARES to even mention the fact that good Damascus barrels CAN be used with smokeless powders, let alone blackpowder, as Ross has written? Who in industry has an interest in the truly odd-ball, ancient calibers that Ross so often uses and writes about?

Seyfried casts for, loads for, and often hunts with such guns. I've gotten a great deal of useful insight on many subjects from his articles, and a couple of very friendly communications from him as well. He is in fact the embodiment of the shooters that Deputy Al just posted about....the ones like us who simply don't much care WHAT latest-and-greatest item the industry comes up with. Surely, he has to deal with the new stuff as a matter of business, but his heart lies with the beautiful old guns that most of us wish we had....and he USES them, and tells us how to get our old stuff shooting, too.

I'd really like to see an anthology of his columns published. The first guy in line to buy one would be yours truly.
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CarpetmanRay
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 19:01:53)

Deputy Al--I drove through Sonora yesterday and back through last night. Didnt see any writings by you there. Sorta expected to see high up on the water tower a "Deputy Al was here" sign. Maybe they have repainted since you were there?
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45nut
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(Date Posted:03/16/2004 22:10:12)

Dep Al.

I have to graciously beg to differ with your opinion that we are a PITA to the shooting industries. I will make a point here so stay with me...We are consuming the comsumables that they have to offer us.

I submit that  the folks that show up at the range with "unique & interesting" firearms inspire the masses to purchase many of their newest products.

Folks are always trying to "keep up with the Jones'" and we are doing our part by keeping the interest alive in guns of ALL flavors. Milsurps,leverguns,et all. All are indeed kept interesting by us and that was quite obvious in Las Vegas. All types and styles were there and the reloading component manufacturers were prominent.

The folks here,including You keep folks like Lyman & RCBS and Lee & Redding financially healthy and They are very interested in keeping the 2nd Amendment alive,helps their bottom line you know. We buy replacement stocks for our guns,replacement triggers,scopes, even Iron Sights for the folks still blessed with favorable eyesight.

We have much to offer the next generation as the generation before benefitted us. Keep the faith and try not to let the bottom feeders that you deal with as a consequence of your employment get you down. We are brothers in arms here,thats why we have become what we have here.

45nut

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http://cast_boolits.aimoo.com/

Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/17/2004 00:22:25)

Carpetman, you are scandalous.  AS IF I'd be spray-painting graffiti in Texas.......they probably string up taggers thereabouts.  I do know that the guy we went to Texas to talk with was pretty happy to see us, and very willing to waive extradition and fly back with us to CA.  Something about a murder beef in CA was better to face than a GTA case in Texas.  Funny attitude. 

45 Nut, your points are well taken--we do buy stuff in the aftermarket with some frequency.  I guess the point I was driving at was that we might buy a few more guns apiece if they'd 1) finish building them before selling them and 2) return to what made the gun companies great in the first place--building well-made general purpose rifles, shotguns, and handguns that are appropriate for several venues, and NOT deleting such variants to make room for niche-marketing concept pieces.   

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