Posted on 01/12/2010 8:51 PM
FA, I think you're thinking of Bess Throckmorton - wife of Sir Walter Raleigh. According to this fun site, she kept his head in a red leather bag for 29 years. After she died, their son took custody of the bag & it wasn't until some time after he died that the head was finally buried! Re Margaret of Ajou - she had the York heads set on the Mickelgate Bar of the city of York and they remained until Edward regained control. I doubt that she had them taken down - as far as she was concerned, once the Duke of York was dead, he was powerless and she didn't care about him anymore. I really don't think she cared enough about him or Edmund or the Neville kin (can't remember which one) that died at Sandal Castle.
Posted on 11/21/2009 3:24 PM
Well now you've got me wondering, 'cause I've got a soft spot for old Matilda - I think she could have held her own against her xxx-times great granddaughter, Elizabeth Tudor for stubbornness and would have probably made a better queen in a later era. Off to Wikipedia....
Ok, I'm back. She lived to age 65, which was probably quite ancient then (although I think her daughter-in-law Eleanor of Aquitaine lived even longer!) She married Geoffrey when she was 26 and he 15 and it was 5 years until lil' Henry was born (way to go Greens - Matilda was over 30 before having children). It was 1154 when Stephen died & Henry II was crowned, at the age of 21, which would make his mom 52. Kind of cool, it says that even after she gave up hope of being crowned and her son was king, her name always preceded his in official announcements & such, a nice gesture on his part.
Her epitaph reads "Great by Birth, Greater by Marriage, Greatest in her Offspring: Here lies Matilda, the daughter, wife, and mother of Henry."
Posted on 11/21/2009 3:12 PM
From what I've read, pneumonia sounds about right for E4. Caught a chill, developed into a upper respiratory infection, and what with no antibiotics available - that can turn into a nasty thing indeed. I have asthma & have had 'walking pneumonia' myself - it's miserable. The infection can cause a high fever, immense difficulty breathing and you simply wear yourself out trying to catch your breath. Nasty croupy coughing does nothing but further weaken you. I have been hospitalized with it, when I've ignored the symptoms too long, so I understand how someone could die of it. And what with his lifestyle, it's not like he had the stamina to throw something like that off. Had he caught such a thing when he was younger, and on the battlefield fairly often, he probably could have survived. But the years of peace allowed him to carouse to his delight, and his constitution was not able to deal with the infection.
Posted on 11/19/2009 8:29 PM
Just a few thoughts as I read your 'find-a-grave' listings on the POT's sisters - they always make me sad - those younger York girls. Catherine & Bridget were 4 & 3 when E4 died, they prolly didn't even remember him or what it was like to be England's princesses. They were just pieces on a chessboard, to their father, mother & later brother-in-law.
Richard Duke of York, as well as his son Edmund Earl of Rutland was brought with honors to Fotheringhay by his son Edward IV. (Wiki says he was buried in Fotheringhay Church {not castle} in 1476) I find it hard to believe that E4 would not have had his father's and brother's heads removed from Mickelgate Bar and buried alongside the bodies. BTW, Proud Cis was buried opposite her husband in Fotheringhay Church some 35 years later.
Posted on 11/19/2009 8:12 PM
As I recall, Matilda died of old age, didn't she? I know she outlived her hubby & lived to see her son Henry crowned as King after Stephen bought the farm. Didn't she rule some of the French lands for her son after he was crowned?
Posted on 11/04/2009 11:59 AM
Can't believe I mixed up Cashelmara & Penmarric either, as I've never liked the Penmarric story near as much - it's the huge family saga of Cashelmara, the Irish potato famine & Sarah become a strong woman that fascinates me. Oh, and it was a Hugh in her story, Hugh MacGowan.
Thanks for posting that glam pix of EW. I know that plucking the hairline was stylin' back then, but I agree with the YEOWCH!! response. 
Oh, and thanks for reminding me the begats of La Cis, I knew that she had Beaufort blood, but couldn't remember how far back. I'm reading through PG's latest, about EW in fact, and while some of it is shudderingly horrible, that thing about Cecily Neville's bloodline was nagging at me.
Posted on 11/04/2009 11:52 AM
When I looked up the dates for my last post, the source did say that he had Titulus Regis repealed at his first Parliament - well before marrying E of Y, certainly before the birth of Arthur and E of Y's coronation ceremony. 'Tis interesting to ponder when/if he found the POT were still alive, if it was after he had gone & made them legitimate again!!! Notice he was also so very careful to wait for the Papal blessing before taking the girl to the altar? He was bound & determined to claim the throne by right on conquest & though his mother's blood and NOT by claiming some of his wife's right. But that seems to be how most saw it.
Posted on 11/02/2009 2:22 PM
Maybe not cheeseparing, but certainly careful..consider the timeline:
August 22 1485 Henry takes the crown by right of conquest after Bosworth
October 30 1485 Henry is crowned
January 18 1486 (after Papal dispensation is received) Henry marries Elizabeth of York
September 20 1486 Arthur is born (everyone at court counts the months!  )
Nobemner 25, 1487, Elizabeth is crowned
Hmm, wonder if sometime in that year between the birth of Arthur & Elizabeth's coronation, the POT were dealt with....
Posted on 11/02/2009 2:05 PM
@prettyboygeorge: More wine! 
Posted on 11/02/2009 1:58 PM
OMG FA!!!
I absolutfreakinlutely love Susan Howatch's 'family' novels. I read Penmarric several times before realizing that it was based on the characters of those Plantagenets. My favorite book(s) of hers is the two-parter "Wheel of Fortune" where she brilliantly takes on Edward III and his children. I've always wanted her to go on with into the Wars of the Roses with the characters in WOF, but she got religion & started writing her Church of England series. Those books are OK, but I love her family historical sagas. She is brilliant at using different narrators to bring out different versions of events. Penmarric, Wheel of Fortune, The Rich are Different & Sins of the Fathers (the last two are based on the Cesar/Cleopatra/Mark Anthony story) are on my permanent bookshelf and usually read once a year or so.
Carry on - back to A Plantagenety November.....
Posted on 10/28/2009 8:50 PM
I agree with you Greensleeves - it's hard to imagine being able to knock off the princes, bust down a staircase, dump the bodies in and seal it back up, all in one night. And it's not like they had quick-setting concrete or something. The conspiracy would have to involve several people, not just Tyrell and some henchmen. Why on earth go to all that trouble when the Thames is right nearby? Or for that matter, haul them out to the country side, like you said. It's not like today, when the faces of royalty are on the news & everyone know what they look like. Heck, they could have put raggedy clothes on them and dumped them off in a bad part of town, they would have been just two other street urchins (like Anne Neville when hiding from her brother-in-law Clarence). Or, as I said in an earlier post, announce that they were ill, then dying and finally a nice, open state funeral - like Richard's brother did with Henry VI. No one believed that the poor fool died of a broken heart (more like a broken head) but there was no festering rumors, either.
Posted on 10/28/2009 8:35 PM
My bad - I was mixing up Carberry Hill with Langside.  Carberry Hill was the battle where Bothwell wanted to fight single combat to settle things - she disagreed - everyone dithered - her troops slipped away - until she decided to surrender herself and Bothwell galloped out of her life. Then she was captured, paraded through Edinborough and then sent to Lochleven, where she miscarried Bothwell's twins and was forced to sign the Abdication. The following spring, she escaped, rallied the troops and lost the battle of Langside where she did try to rally her army to fight before she had to run for her life.
Posted on 10/28/2009 8:24 PM
No great shock to those who've read my posts, but I feel very sorry for MQOS. How sad that the best part of her life ended when she was 17 & she left France a widow. If would be funny if Elizabeth & Mary could have traded place when they were both were Queens regnant. Elizabeth had men jumping to her tune, and wasn't afraid to bellow at them in a royal rage. They respected her, almost to the point of idolization. The court of Scotland, on the other hand,was a rough & lawless place. Can you imagine men of the court laying hands on Elizabeth, threatening her with a gun(during Rizzo's murder) or a knife (when she was forced to sign the abdication at Lochleven)? That men would even think of handling their queen in such a manner - this would never never happen in England. Even though the English courtiers were certainly not perfect, they did have a sense of patriotism, while the Scots Lords seemed to be 'every man for himself', with a few exceptions.
Posted on 10/28/2009 8:15 PM
Props to PG for ripping on TTOS and the ever-slim JRM!
However, had to lol at her brag "In writing my historical novels, I apply very strict rules of accuracy to facts when they are known."
Lastly, interesting take on Henry's mental state - especially as a result of the fall in January 1536. I always focus on Anne Boleyn's reaction to his fall and her subsequent miscarriage and slide right past thinking what it could have done to Henry's brain!
Posted on 10/28/2009 8:10 PM
I'm thinking that Mary thought that the Pope or some great Catholic lord or king was going to come with an army and rescue her. She had given up on Elizabeth restoring her to the Scottish throne, her son was rising on adulthood & had no use for her - it was either plot or resign to being a prisoner for no other reason than her bloodline. Sure, once she started plotting, it was inevitable that Elizabeth would have to be executed in order for Mary to rule, but she didn't want to think about that - she was only focused on being free and being treated like a queen again. I guess I feel sorry for her - she was held as a prisoner for so long, denied the chance to face her accusers & prove her innocence - was she supposed to sit meekly and just wait ...for what? Really, what did Cecil & Elizabeth expect Mary to do?
Posted on 10/28/2009 7:53 PM
Reply to Greensleeves (10/03/2009 11:16 PM)
str8 HA good one....but that don't wash, since Jane was a Protestant (you Protestant peeps don't go to hell, do ya?).
Speaking of str8 (or not):
@lionheart: Wish all these chicks would quit coming on to me! Who needs em?
Yep - we got hell, just no purgatory! 
Posted on 09/24/2009 7:18 AM
Seems we're back to discussing MQOS' mental state - thought it might be interesting to resurrect this series of posts....comments anyone?
Posted on 09/19/2009 8:19 PM
Gotta lol at the mental image of the monks at Inchmahome Priory hitting the greens with the lil queen while she hid out there before heading to France. {watch out for that water hazard, it's a lulu!}
Posted on 09/19/2009 8:13 PM
Need to check some reference books, but I think that Margaret had known that she was to marry the king of Scotland for some time, since she was about 9 or so. Her mother would have instilled that idea in her. Also Margaret's character was much more headstrong - somewhat like her little brother Henry....
Mary was the baby of the nursery, and her mother died when she was 7. I don't know what matrimonial plans her father had hatched, but she was not betrothed until she was 18, to the old King of France. Maybe she was able to delude herself that her loving brother the King would let her have freedom in her choice of spouse. After all, she was apparently her brother's favorite sister & was, I'm guessing spoiled & petted as pretty children often are, and the occasion of her marring to King Louis may have been the first time she didn't get her way about something!
Posted on 09/19/2009 8:00 PM
I'll be brave & try again..
@tudorrose: OMG Charles is sooo hot - he is my 1 tru luv! I wanna marry him & go home to England!
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