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(Date Posted:02/20/2009 11:27 AM)
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From: Lady Helen  (Original Message)Sent: 6/18/2005 7:34 PM
Is Matilda, daughter of Henry I- counted as a ruling monarch of England?
From: MSN NicknameJudymar14Sent: 6/20/2005 6:28 AM
I remember reading that the people just didn't like her. Another thing that could have made her not wanted was just the fact that she was a woman....
From: ForeverAmberSent: 6/28/2005 2:51 AM
Stephen was such a wishy-washy king....you'd think they would have welcomed someone else on the throne.  Robert of Gloucester would have been Matilda's primary advisor (o those able bastards who couldn't succeed!) & he was pretty well-liked.
From: MSN NicknameKiltedpiper2Sent: 7/10/2005 8:37 PM
She wa a very big troublemaker in England at the time, just when things would calm down she would stir the fire again and the people just got tired of it.
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 7/10/2005 9:02 PM
Matilda definately had a "bad" attitude.  You might say she was a "bit" tyranical.  Couple that with the fact she was a woman and there was no way she would be accepted. 
 
Let's not forget that women were considered not only second class people, but also not really very bright.  They were the chattle of thier husband...not the leaders of thier country.  That was simply the way it was then. 
 
Matilda being "uppety", imperious and stubborn (in addition to being a woman) was too much for either the lower classes, gentry or peerage to take.  Better to have a weak (although agreeable) MAN like Stephen.
 
Stephen's mistake, ironically, was that he was the complete opposite of Matilda's personality in that he tried to do the impossible of making everyone happy, all the time.
 
There was an old discussion we had here a couple of years ago about the (possible) romantic relationship between Stephen and Matilda.  Anyone have any comments on that speculation?
From: AnnieBmeSent: 7/10/2005 10:57 PM
The possibility of a romance between Stephen and Matilda has been romantacized in many fictional books, BUT there seems to be SOME basis for the speculation.
From: Lady HelenSent: 7/26/2005 5:53 PM
What about Lady Jane Grey - is she counted as being a ruling monarch of England??
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 7/27/2005 3:20 PM
Yes, she was proclaimed Queen following the correct procedure.
From: MSN NicknameJudymar14Sent: 7/28/2005 12:04 AM
Didn't they have to actually be crowned to be king or queen? Judy
From: Lady HelenSent: 7/28/2005 8:44 AM
In most books that I have read about the English Monarchy they do not give Matilda or Jane the same status as the rest and they are not listed as reigning monarchs on most lists.
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 7/29/2005 2:31 PM
Up until the reign of Edward I a monarch had to be crowned before they were officially King or Queen, which is why Matilda was never Queen. But when Henry III died in November 1272 his heir Edward was on Crusade in the Holy Land, so he was proclaimed King in his abscence thus the new "system" began. 
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 7/29/2005 3:18 PM
At some point, I'm not sure when, it changed so that a monarch succeeded immediately upon the death of the preceeding monarch. That is why Elizabeth II became Queen whilst sleeping in a tree house in Kenya in 1952 several hours before she or anyone else knew of it. 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 7/31/2005 9:57 PM
We are all familiar with the declaration...The King (Queen) is dead, long live the King (Queen)!
The old is declared dead and the new acknowledged all in one sentence/breath.
From: MSN NicknameJuneBuggy624Sent: 8/1/2005 12:38 PM
That was a really good way of putting it.
But why do so many books about English monarchy not include Jane as a Queen?  They usually just mention her under Edward and Mary.
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 8/1/2005 12:55 PM
The more complete histories will include her as the "9 day Queen".  The more general histories simply do not go into it.
 
The short duration of her "reign" and that it never should have happened in the first place (brief userption) makes her reign an almost non issue. 
 
I have even seen her name in parenthises in some lists of English monarchs, like they are not sure whether to include her or not.
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5Sent: 8/1/2005 2:28 PM
Another example of a dubious monarch is Sven or Sweyn, King of Denmark who overthrew Ethelred around Christmas 1013 and "ruled" as King of England for six weeks until his death in February 1014. As he was never crowned he was technically never King, but he ran the country as King for that short time. So was he King ? 
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:10/11/2009 5:57 PM)

Correct me if i'm wrong, but is it the same with Edward V. Many history books include him in a list of British kings and queens, and I never really counted him. What do you all think?
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:10/12/2009 12:28 PM)

Edward V was proclaimed King on 11 April 1483, two days after his father's death, therefore he was King of England. See my two posts above dated 29.7.2005 for the procedures at that time. 
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:10/25/2009 12:00 AM)

So all some peep has to do is yell out "The King is dead, long live the King" & tis official?

Pity Richard of York didn't think to announce, "The King is brain-dead...." LOL
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:10/25/2009 3:31 AM)

The proclamation had to be made by a particular person authorized by the Privy Council or Parliament.
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/01/2009 11:20 PM)

I'd imagine Northumberland was authorized, so why doesn't Jane really count, then?
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/02/2009 3:13 PM)

I think she does, but some history books leave her out because its too confusing to go into it all.
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/03/2009 10:08 PM)

It's fascinating....some folk got no appreciation for the tangents of history smiley4  Too lazy to untangle the begats.

Getting back on thread topic....I wonder why Henry I just didn't bypass Matilda entirely for either Robert of Gloucester or the Anjou brats?  It would've saved a ton of trouble in the long run.  I always liked that title of Sharon Kay Penman's book about it, While Christ & His Saints Slept.  Stephen's cojones were used up running across the Channel to seize the throne.  If Gloucester had opposed him in his own right, I bet he could've taken him.  Matilda was from all accounts too overbearing for a lowly female & had such a bad historical rap that she started the Reformation, really, because that's what Henry VIII was worried about, Mary's succession.  Maybe old Hank was psychic there ROFL because Mary didn't do at all well, did she?
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/13/2009 7:16 AM)

Considering Henry's daddy was a bastard, methinks Robert of Gloucester might've been an acceptable alternative to Matilda for the barons.  They weren't so fussed on legitmacy yet back then.  And Stephen's claim was thru his mummy, Adela, Henry's sister.  I reckon that's what Matilda gets for squatting in Anjou & not being a devoted daughter at dying daddy's bedside?  O wait, wasn't Henry the one who demised from "a surfeit of lampreys"?  Sudden death then, carry on LOL  I wonder if that's like acute mercury poisoning BTW?  I just saw some celeb gossip (why is it dr's offices got nuffin to read but rag mags?) where some actor got mercury poisoning from eating too much sushi PMSL  Eels is fish, you never know.

{nudges FA to make a nice "cause of royal demises" chart}
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/19/2009 12:07 PM)

Hmmm....I could....except some of them you just don't know for certain what killed them.  Like old Arthur there, for instance.  In fact, I don't think I even know what the subject of this thread, Matilda, died of, except that she did ROFL  Go dig out that Plantagenet encyclopedia
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/19/2009 8:12 PM)

As I recall, Matilda died of old age, didn't she?  I know she outlived her hubby & lived to see her son Henry crowned as King after Stephen bought the farm.  Didn't she rule some of the French lands for her son after he was crowned?
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/20/2009 1:47 PM)

Lots of those peeps died in their 30s & 40s, what we would consider young, but that was the life expectancy rate back then, so would that be considered "old age"?  Matilda was 29 when she married 15-yr-old Geoffrey of Anjou & methinks since she was not amused with it & went home to Daddy at least once or twice that I recollect, she was prolly in her early to mid-30s when she commenced breeding her 3 lil heirs.  So mayhap early 50s when Henry became king?
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/21/2009 3:24 PM)

Well now you've got me wondering, 'cause I've got a soft spot for old Matilda - I think she could have held her own against her xxx-times great granddaughter, Elizabeth Tudor for stubbornness and would have probably made a better queen in a later era.  Off to Wikipedia....

Ok, I'm back.  She lived to age 65, which was probably quite ancient then (although I think her daughter-in-law Eleanor of Aquitaine lived even longer!) She married Geoffrey when she was 26 and he 15 and it was 5 years until lil' Henry was born (way to go Greens - Matilda was over 30 before having children).  It was 1154 when Stephen died & Henry II was crowned, at the age of 21, which would make his mom 52.  Kind of cool, it says that even after she gave up hope of being crowned and her son was king, her name always preceded his in official announcements & such, a nice gesture on his part.  

Her epitaph reads "Great by Birth, Greater by Marriage, Greatest in her Offspring: Here lies Matilda, the daughter, wife, and mother of Henry."
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RE:Queen Matilda
(Date Posted:11/21/2009 4:20 PM)

I thunk they were 14 yrs apart, she was married to the Emperor at like the age of 8 & I thunk they were married like 20 yrs.  Mayhap I'm confusing her with Eleanor, wasn't she sposed to be 29 when she married Henry?  I know she was 15 when she married Louis & they were married 14 yrs....prolly where the 14 is coming from LOL  I knew Matilda didn't get along well with lil Geoffrey le Bel there.  She never wished to be styled queen anyway, but "Lady of the English" or some such nonsense.

Methinks Eleanor was seriously in her 80s when she died, as she lived a few yrs into John's reign, & Richard was pushing 40 when he died & he was in the middle of the offspring, but the problem is no one thunk to write down when she was actually born.  She was well past 40 when John was born & he was the youngest of the Devil's Brood.  Methinks he was also the only one she didn't bury, come to think of it.  Apparently the kids dipped too much into Henry's gene pool LOL

I read some place that life expectancy rates are seriously wrong anyhow.  That's because they're affected by infant mortality rates when you calculate the average.  So in a time of high infant mortality (the fact that all of Eleanor's children save William lived to maturity was astonishing in those days), the life expectancy would be lower.  Make sense?  Eleanor rattled the charts on both ends.  Also read that the US has the worst infant mortality rate in the not-Third World, also mind-blowing, so we'll all live to be 100 acuz tis skewed!

Do you think Matilda & Eleanor got along at all, considering how strong-willed they both were?  Henry was a real mamma's boy, so I bet Eleanor came off badly in any arguments she had with Matilda.

Forgot to add, notice how her epitaph just wiped out Henry's father like he never existed!


(Message edited by Greensleeves On 11/21/2009 4:23 PM)
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