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Title: Thy Brother's Wife
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(Date Posted:02/19/2009 6:48 AM)
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From: Greensleeves  (Original Message)Sent: 7/31/2002 11:36 PM
At Catherine of Aragon's divorce trial in the legatine court at Blackfriars, there was evidence given regarding the morning after her wedding to Henry VIII's brother, Arthur.  It was stated that upon arising, Arthur called for a drink, commenting that marriage was thirsty work and he had "been in Spain last night"; this was used to undermine Catherine's claim that she had come to her marriage bed with Henry "a true maid" and imply that she and Arthur had consummated their marriage.  I find it difficult to believe that a couple of teenagers sanctioned by marriage managed to refrain from sexual contact for the entire five months they were together.  What does everyone think?
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 8/4/2002 9:45 AM
I don't think they "did" anything.
 
First, because of Catherine's comments (which were made directly to Henry VIII at the trial) when she said, she had come to him as a "true maid".  She would not have done that if it had not been so.
 
Second, Arthur had been "ill" before the marriage, I do not think he was capable of consumating the marriage.  The comment sited and alluding to the deed being done on the following morning (if it was even actually made) was to "save face" for the inability of Arthur.
 
Third, I think they were "shipped off" to Wales right away by Henry VII with the rationale and hope that two young people, alone, and left to their own devises, so to speak, would "get on with it"...nature would take it's course. 
 
I do not think Henry VII wanted to admit (even to himself) just how sick Arthur was.
From: MSN NicknameSkydancer08Sent: 8/4/2002 6:24 PM
I agree with Stonehenge.  Of course, we have no proof as to whether Prince Arthur and his young Spanish bride consummated their marriage.  However, unless and until historians turn up evidence, I cannot imagine Arthur's boast about having "been in Spain" on the wedding night being more than a sad attempt to convince his father and his courtiers that he was a strong and lusty man.  Further, Catherine of Aragon was a deeply religious, loyal, and courageous woman.  Whatever her faults, lying was definitely against her character and her beliefs. 
From: GreensleevesSent: 8/5/2002 10:34 AM
But Catherine seemed to have an ability to present the truth as she saw it, whether or not it was strictly accurate.  For example, when they were first married she manipulated Henry brilliantly in order to further her father's power plays on the continent, and even had official credentials as Ferdinand's ambassador to England for many years!  In an age when women did not receive much of an education, the majority of the Tudor women, including Catherine, were quite learned; Catherine's tutors had expressed the opinion that it was a pity she had been born a woman with her intelligence.  She was far from a stupid woman and she had to know exactly what her father was doing, yet she coerced Henry into following the policies of Spain convinced that it was the right thing to do.  Even though she had a reputation for piety and honesty, she was not above a little prevarication when it suited her agenda, and what more important agenda did she have at Blackfriars than to insure the legitimacy and status of her only surviving child?
From: AnnieBmeSent: 8/5/2002 7:17 PM
Intelligent or not, her dogged refusal to go along with what Henry wanted, was niether common good sense nor intelligent.
 
Don't forget, in the beggining Henry offered to have her "retire" to a nunnery.  This would have kept Mary legitimate and only reduced her title to Dowanger Queen.  She would still wield power (to a certain extent) and Henry probably would have treated her very well (much like he did Anne of Cleves for "going along" with his wishes).  Catherine was, at this point, past childbearing and  lets face it, as the main function of a Queen was/is that of a (please excuse the expression) broodmare, she could no longer do her Queenly duty nor had she already produced a prefered son.
 
This "retiring", under such circumstances, was not something new.  It had been done in France, most successfully and all parties were "winners".  Catherine's excessive religiousness would have made the whole thing quite pleasant for her.  Mary would have still had her place at court and been able to have BOTH her parents in her life. 
 
But intelligence out the window, Catherine would have none of it!
From: ForeverAmberSent: 8/6/2002 1:04 AM
Catherine was initially asked to "choose a house and retire" in the spring of 1527 while the King's Great Matter was decided, & she declined to do so.  Later on Campeggio, the papal legate, advised her to retire gracefully to a nunnery.  The problem was that at this stage of the proceedings, what Henry was seeking from the papacy was not technically a divorce on the grounds that his wife was unable to provide him with issue, but an ANNULMENT on the grounds that she had previously been his brother's wife & that the papal dispensation which had allowed the marriage was invalid.  Divorce would have kept Mary perfectly legitimate & still Henry's heir presumptive.  An annulment, on the other hand, meant that the marriage had never existed in canon law, which meant that Catherine had cohabitated with a man not her husband & borne his bastards.  Mary could easily have been legitimized BUT, like James Stewart, Earl of Arran, the older brother of Mary, Queen of Scots, would have been barred from inheriting the throne despite that because she had not been conceived & born in wedlock. Mary had already been invested as Princess of Wales & recognized as the heir to the throne, & an annulment would have taken that away from her. 
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1Sent: 8/6/2002 5:08 PM
Actually, there is no such thing in the Catholic Church as "divorce". 
 
The only two ways out of a Catholic marriage is annulment or death.
 
However, there is some sort of provision for any "issue" , of the marriage being annuled, that will not make them illigitimate.  I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly how it works...mabey someone else does.
From: ForeverAmberSent: 8/6/2002 11:53 PM
Whoops!  I am confusing my Scots!  Mary Queen of's brother, James Stewart, was the Earl of MORAY, not ARRAN.  Arran was the nutcase who lept plotting to abduct Mary & marry her.....sorry!
From: hythlodaySent: 12/14/2003 10:14 PM
lady of the glade is somewhat right about divorce.  as a catholic, we regard divorce as a perfectly legitimate civil thing.  one can be divorced and still be catholic.  they can even be remarried in the sight of god.  however, to have the church recognize a marriage, you must be annulled from your previous marriage.  many believe that catholics do not divorce or that its an unnacceptable thing, however it is not so according to our teachings.  of course, its not a wonderful thing!  something that is unpleasant to have to do but sometimes necessary.
From: MSN NicknamenmnursernSent: 12/17/2003 3:02 AM
You bet I agree. I dont think Cahterine and Arthur  refrained as you put it. I do think she lied when she was questioned about her virginity after his death because she wanted to say what her parents wanted to hear. I also think she confessed this lie to Fra Digo her confessor and he gave her absolution for it - which means her conscience was clear from then on , and it meant she did not ever need to confess it again and that lie perhaps, explained the strange hold that priest had on her for so long.
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RE:Thy Brother's Wife
(Date Posted:02/19/2009 6:49 AM)

From: judymar Sent: 12/17/2003 5:27 AM
I think she lied as well, but I think it was a lie that she started to believe. After the confession of the lie, it would have been forgiven, and who knows what the priest told her, he could even have convinced her she was a virgin again. She was so religious, and people of history just seemed to have a way of making religion work for them. Henry had to know whether or not she was a virgin and it never bothered him till she couldn't give him a son. He still comes out on the bad side no matter how you look at it, whether she lied or not!!
From: MSN Nicknamenmnursern Sent: 12/18/2003 10:32 PM
Unless Henry himself was a virgin as well and didnt know the difference either. Therefore bringing out his inexperience at the Blackfriars Court would have been too humilitaing for him....
From: Greensleeves Sent: 12/18/2003 11:56 PM
Interesting!!!  Henry VII DID kinda keep him under lock & key with Grandma Beaufort as his chaperone LOL......hmmmmm!  Never thunk of it that way before with all the emphasis on Catherine's maiden state.
From: hythloday Sent: 12/22/2003 5:29 PM
i doubt henry was a virgin although it is certainly possible.  but some women, nowdays at least, do not retain the hymen despite not having had sex.  this is for many reasons, one of which being the natural erosion of that membrane.  could this have been so back then?  i am no expert but its an interesting thought.  back in that day, men judged virginity mostly on the sexual responses of their new wives on their wedding night.  in fact, we know that it was highly likely that katherine howard was not a virgin on her wedding night and yet the king did not discover or suspect she had slept with derham some time before.
 
autumn
From: MSN Nicknamenmnursern Sent: 12/25/2003 9:04 PM
It was easy to fake virginity especially if the husband was drunk, inexperienced or the candles were out. Prick the heel  of the foot with a needle and bleed all over  the sheets etc.......
From: hythloday Sent: 12/26/2003 6:49 AM

this is true too.  but on the date of henry's wedding with catherine of aragon, he was still known to be quite "monkish".

autumn

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RE:Thy Brother's Wife
(Date Posted:02/20/2009 10:48 AM)

Combining with another thread on Catherine's virginity

From: Ghislaine  (Original Message) Sent: 6/29/2007 5:04 AM
At Blackfriars, when Henry had steam coming out of his ears at Catherine's public assertion of being a "true maid", she told him to "look to his conscience" about it because he knew that to be true.  Henry VII & Margaret Beaufort kept Henry VIII on a fairly tight leash after Arthur's death.  Is it possible that Henry was so angry at this public statement because HE was a virgin & therefore perhaps didn't realize Catherine was?
From: Berengaria Sent: 6/29/2007 5:13 AM
Interesting thought!  It's true Henry was virtually under lock & key, not even allowed to go out in public until his father died.  If he did have any experience of women at all before he married Catherine, it was probably very limited.
From: Greensleeves Sent: 7/8/2007 12:18 PM
Henry alas was probably not the great cocksman he liked peeps to think he was.  Certainly not in the league of Foxnose Francois.  He had that annoying habit of falling in love & wanting to get married LOL before having sex.  It's entirely possible he didn't know a virgin from a brothelkeeper
From: MSN Nicknameterrilee62 Sent: 7/9/2007 11:12 AM
In the intro to one of the six wives books, it's said that Henry had more wives that mistresses!
From: MSN NicknameLadyoftheGlade1 Sent: 7/10/2007 11:35 PM
This is very true.  Henry had very few mistresses.  Bessie Blount and Mary Boleyn are about it.  Although it is most likely that he and Anne had sex before they married, he did marry her and so I would not count her in the short list.
From: ForeverAmber Sent: 7/12/2007 11:19 PM
THIS page claims Henry had several bastards by not just Mary Boleyn, but but a Mary Berkeley & a Joan Dingly as well.  No mention of Anne Hastings (Buckingham's sister) as a mistress though.
From: MSN NicknameLouiseOC Sent: 7/13/2007 2:05 AM
I have always understood that Henry's only achnowledged  bastard was Henry Fitzroy.  Alison Weir's book 'Britain's Royal Families' mentions a daughter (Ethelreda or Audrey) by someone called Joan Dobson or Dingley (the daughter died in 1555, but had issue).  Two other possible offsprings are mentioned with question marks (meaning it's unlikely they were Henry's) Sir Joh Perrot and Thomas Stukeley.  Weir says "It is highly unlikely that Henry VIII was the father of Thomas or Sir John Perrot."
 
Louise
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5 Sent: 7/13/2007 2:17 PM
Henry VIII is often portrayed as a randy old goat simply because he had six wives. But there are many Kings who had far more mistresses and illegitimate children. Although the randy old goat tag has some truth when you consider that he was 49 when he married Katherine Howard who was probably no more than 15 at the time.
From: MSN Nicknameterrilee62 Sent: 7/16/2007 8:50 AM
Absolutely!  That marriage rates high on the "ick" factor for me!! 
From: MSN NicknameLouiseOC Sent: 7/16/2007 10:48 AM
Henry seems to have been a romantic in his way.  He actually expected to be in love with his wives, which few kings can have expected at that time.  Look at the fuss he made because he didn't find Anne of Cleeves desirable.  Most kings would just have shut their eyes and thought of England.
 
As for the youthfulness of Katherine Howard, I must say people seem to be very hard to please on the subject of the age of his wives.  I mean, poor Anne Boleyn is considered too old for him if she was 30 when they married, but Katherine Howard is too young at 15.  What would have been the right age for his wife to be?
 
Louise
From: MSN NicknameMarkGB5 Sent: 7/16/2007 2:00 PM
If you think King Henry at 49 with a 15 year old bride was bad enough spare a thought for Katherine Parr who was about 14 when she married her first husband, the 63 year old Edward de Burgh, 2nd Baron Borough.
From: MSN Nicknameterrilee62 Sent: 7/16/2007 3:34 PM
It's not the age of the wives so much as the difference in ages between Henry & his spouse-of-the-moment.  If, in 1533, Anne Boleyn was 30, her spouse-to-be was 42.  The 12 year age difference there versus the 34-year difference he had with Kat Howard. 
From: MSN NicknameLouiseOC Sent: 7/16/2007 3:50 PM
Well, many rich old men marry young girls when they get the chance, and the young girls don't exactly seem to be reluctant. Of course, young women had less freedom of choice in those days, but even so Catherine Howard probably liked the idea of being Queen, otherwise why try and keep her alliance with Francis Dereham a secret?  If she hadn't wanted to marry Henry, she need only have made that public, and I suppose ti would have scuppered her chances.
 
Louise
From: MSN NicknameLinda_J9 Sent: 7/17/2007 8:40 AM
Oh, Louise, but think of the pressure she must have been under from her family. It's hard to believe that any 15-year-old girl would willingly marry an overweight, petulant, 49-year-old bully who had already murdered her cousin, king or no king. Her family must have been putting tremendous pressure on her to agree, and she must have known that revealing her prior alliance would bring on the wrath of her father, her mother, and probably all the adult members of the Howard clan. And at that time, of course, there were no laws against child abuse, and no court in the land would have sided with a 15-year-old girl. Did they even ask her if she wanted the marriage with Henry?
 
If we look at it in that context, the poor thing probably felt like a rat in a trap. She never stood a chance.
 
What do others here think?
 
Linda
 
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RE:Thy Brother's Wife
(Date Posted:02/20/2009 10:49 AM)

From: MSN Nicknameterrilee62 Sent: 7/18/2007 8:39 AM
I suspect Katherine Howard was more neglected than abused, however....Linda, I love your description of H8 as an overweight, petulant 49-year old bully! I think that Henry was a romantic at heart, but by this stage of his life he had been disappointed so many times.  And being the king & Head of the Church in England meant that nothing was ever his fault!
 
After ordering the executions of former friends and distant family, who would be brave enough to say no to this man?  Even an older, more experienced Katherine Parr couldn't say no, marrying the king when she wanted to marry that pirate Tom Seymour.  (and what a catch he turned out to be )
 
terri*lee
From: MSN NicknameLouiseOC Sent: 7/18/2007 10:51 AM
I have no doubt her family were very keen on the match, but I don't personally think it is that unlikely that she would have wanted the marriage herself.  The prospect of being Queen of England probably wasn't disagreeable to her.  Henry was the King, and that in itself probably made him seem desirable as a husband, and the fact that she was a naive young girl would have made it more likely rather than less that she would find it an attractive match.  She probably found it less agreeable once they were actually married.
 
Beautiful young women are always marrrying rich old men because they are attracted by wealth and power, and I don't suppose it was much different in the 16th century.  Nowadays, though, you don't get your head cut off if you cheat on your husband, even if he is a King.  I am sorry for Catherine Howard because she was obviously very naive and out of her depth as Henry's wife, but I do think she was terribly silly.  The fate of her cousin Anne Boleyn should have warned her that it was dangerous to dally with another man right under Henry's nose.  I think that even a girl as young as Catherine might have realised that Henry was a dangerous man to cross.
 
Louise
From: ForeverAmber Sent: 7/20/2007 7:23 AM
randy old goat tag has some truth when you consider that he was 49 when he married Katherine Howard who was probably no more than 15 at the time.
 
Agreed
 
How'd this thread get from one Catherine to the other? LOL
From: MSN NicknameReplacedJudymar Sent: 7/22/2007 9:36 PM
I am sure girls were raised to know an old man would most likely be their fate. Something they just took for granted, and very few rebelled...Sort of like they knew no better or anything else in life. Just as their mother, grandmother all that came before them accepted life as it was laid out by others.
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