Forever_Amber
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Rank:Diamond Member  Score:572 Posts:572 From: USA 
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RE:Thy Brother's Wife
(Date Posted:02/19/2009 6:49 AM)
| From: judymar |
Sent: 12/17/2003 5:27 AM |
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I think she lied as well, but I think it was a lie that she started to believe. After the confession of the lie, it would have been forgiven, and who knows what the priest told her, he could even have convinced her she was a virgin again. She was so religious, and people of history just seemed to have a way of making religion work for them. Henry had to know whether or not she was a virgin and it never bothered him till she couldn't give him a son. He still comes out on the bad side no matter how you look at it, whether she lied or not!! |
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Unless Henry himself was a virgin as well and didnt know the difference either. Therefore bringing out his inexperience at the Blackfriars Court would have been too humilitaing for him.... |
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Interesting!!! Henry VII DID kinda keep him under lock & key with Grandma Beaufort as his chaperone LOL......hmmmmm! Never thunk of it that way before with all the emphasis on Catherine's maiden state. |
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i doubt henry was a virgin although it is certainly possible. but some women, nowdays at least, do not retain the hymen despite not having had sex. this is for many reasons, one of which being the natural erosion of that membrane. could this have been so back then? i am no expert but its an interesting thought. back in that day, men judged virginity mostly on the sexual responses of their new wives on their wedding night. in fact, we know that it was highly likely that katherine howard was not a virgin on her wedding night and yet the king did not discover or suspect she had slept with derham some time before.
autumn |
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It was easy to fake virginity especially if the husband was drunk, inexperienced or the candles were out. Prick the heel of the foot with a needle and bleed all over the sheets etc....... |
this is true too. but on the date of henry's wedding with catherine of aragon, he was still known to be quite "monkish".
autumn
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Forever_Amber
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Rank:Diamond Member  Score:572 Posts:572 From: USA 
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RE:Thy Brother's Wife
(Date Posted:02/20/2009 10:48 AM)
Combining with another thread on Catherine's virginity
| From: Ghislaine (Original Message) |
Sent: 6/29/2007 5:04 AM |
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At Blackfriars, when Henry had steam coming out of his ears at Catherine's public assertion of being a "true maid", she told him to "look to his conscience" about it because he knew that to be true. Henry VII & Margaret Beaufort kept Henry VIII on a fairly tight leash after Arthur's death. Is it possible that Henry was so angry at this public statement because HE was a virgin & therefore perhaps didn't realize Catherine was? |
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Interesting thought! It's true Henry was virtually under lock & key, not even allowed to go out in public until his father died. If he did have any experience of women at all before he married Catherine, it was probably very limited. |
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Henry alas was probably not the great cocksman he liked peeps to think he was. Certainly not in the league of Foxnose Francois. He had that annoying habit of falling in love & wanting to get married LOL before having sex. It's entirely possible he didn't know a virgin from a brothelkeeper |
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In the intro to one of the six wives books, it's said that Henry had more wives that mistresses! |
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This is very true. Henry had very few mistresses. Bessie Blount and Mary Boleyn are about it. Although it is most likely that he and Anne had sex before they married, he did marry her and so I would not count her in the short list. |
THIS page claims Henry had several bastards by not just Mary Boleyn, but but a Mary Berkeley & a Joan Dingly as well. No mention of Anne Hastings (Buckingham's sister) as a mistress though. |
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I have always understood that Henry's only achnowledged bastard was Henry Fitzroy. Alison Weir's book 'Britain's Royal Families' mentions a daughter (Ethelreda or Audrey) by someone called Joan Dobson or Dingley (the daughter died in 1555, but had issue). Two other possible offsprings are mentioned with question marks (meaning it's unlikely they were Henry's) Sir Joh Perrot and Thomas Stukeley. Weir says "It is highly unlikely that Henry VIII was the father of Thomas or Sir John Perrot."
Louise |
From:  MarkGB5 |
Sent: 7/13/2007 2:17 PM |
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Henry VIII is often portrayed as a randy old goat simply because he had six wives. But there are many Kings who had far more mistresses and illegitimate children. Although the randy old goat tag has some truth when you consider that he was 49 when he married Katherine Howard who was probably no more than 15 at the time. |
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Absolutely! That marriage rates high on the "ick" factor for me!! |
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Henry seems to have been a romantic in his way. He actually expected to be in love with his wives, which few kings can have expected at that time. Look at the fuss he made because he didn't find Anne of Cleeves desirable. Most kings would just have shut their eyes and thought of England.
As for the youthfulness of Katherine Howard, I must say people seem to be very hard to please on the subject of the age of his wives. I mean, poor Anne Boleyn is considered too old for him if she was 30 when they married, but Katherine Howard is too young at 15. What would have been the right age for his wife to be?
Louise |
From:  MarkGB5 |
Sent: 7/16/2007 2:00 PM |
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If you think King Henry at 49 with a 15 year old bride was bad enough spare a thought for Katherine Parr who was about 14 when she married her first husband, the 63 year old Edward de Burgh, 2nd Baron Borough. |
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It's not the age of the wives so much as the difference in ages between Henry & his spouse-of-the-moment. If, in 1533, Anne Boleyn was 30, her spouse-to-be was 42. The 12 year age difference there versus the 34-year difference he had with Kat Howard. |
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Well, many rich old men marry young girls when they get the chance, and the young girls don't exactly seem to be reluctant. Of course, young women had less freedom of choice in those days, but even so Catherine Howard probably liked the idea of being Queen, otherwise why try and keep her alliance with Francis Dereham a secret? If she hadn't wanted to marry Henry, she need only have made that public, and I suppose ti would have scuppered her chances.
Louise |
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Oh, Louise, but think of the pressure she must have been under from her family. It's hard to believe that any 15-year-old girl would willingly marry an overweight, petulant, 49-year-old bully who had already murdered her cousin, king or no king. Her family must have been putting tremendous pressure on her to agree, and she must have known that revealing her prior alliance would bring on the wrath of her father, her mother, and probably all the adult members of the Howard clan. And at that time, of course, there were no laws against child abuse, and no court in the land would have sided with a 15-year-old girl. Did they even ask her if she wanted the marriage with Henry?
If we look at it in that context, the poor thing probably felt like a rat in a trap. She never stood a chance.
What do others here think?
Linda |
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Forever_Amber
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Rank:Diamond Member  Score:572 Posts:572 From: USA 
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RE:Thy Brother's Wife
(Date Posted:02/20/2009 10:49 AM)
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I suspect Katherine Howard was more neglected than abused, however....Linda, I love your description of H8 as an overweight, petulant 49-year old bully! I think that Henry was a romantic at heart, but by this stage of his life he had been disappointed so many times. And being the king & Head of the Church in England meant that nothing was ever his fault!
After ordering the executions of former friends and distant family, who would be brave enough to say no to this man? Even an older, more experienced Katherine Parr couldn't say no, marrying the king when she wanted to marry that pirate Tom Seymour. (and what a catch he turned out to be )
terri*lee |
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I have no doubt her family were very keen on the match, but I don't personally think it is that unlikely that she would have wanted the marriage herself. The prospect of being Queen of England probably wasn't disagreeable to her. Henry was the King, and that in itself probably made him seem desirable as a husband, and the fact that she was a naive young girl would have made it more likely rather than less that she would find it an attractive match. She probably found it less agreeable once they were actually married.
Beautiful young women are always marrrying rich old men because they are attracted by wealth and power, and I don't suppose it was much different in the 16th century. Nowadays, though, you don't get your head cut off if you cheat on your husband, even if he is a King. I am sorry for Catherine Howard because she was obviously very naive and out of her depth as Henry's wife, but I do think she was terribly silly. The fate of her cousin Anne Boleyn should have warned her that it was dangerous to dally with another man right under Henry's nose. I think that even a girl as young as Catherine might have realised that Henry was a dangerous man to cross.
Louise |
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randy old goat tag has some truth when you consider that he was 49 when he married Katherine Howard who was probably no more than 15 at the time.
Agreed  
How'd this thread get from one Catherine to the other? LOL |
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I am sure girls were raised to know an old man would most likely be their fate. Something they just took for granted, and very few rebelled...Sort of like they knew no better or anything else in life. Just as their mother, grandmother all that came before them accepted life as it was laid out by others. |
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