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Kiger-sales
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1#
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(Date Posted:01/11/2007 3:13 AM)
This might just be the solution we have been looking for. Lets here some ideas.
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EquQuest
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2#
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(Date Posted:01/11/2007 5:14 AM)
1) dna testing needs to be manditory for registration.
2) there needs to be a point type system for registered horses, especially for those used in breeding.
3) maybe allowing approved outside stallions for a number of years to improve the breed. Many other breeds do this - like the appendix papers in QH or using more QH in Appy breeding, etc.
4) education for members, especially breeders
5) a future add campaign to promote these horses for what they really are - solid, sound, versatile
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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DianneC
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(Date Posted:01/11/2007 7:48 AM)
I agree with the DNA testing.
A point system would be good if it could be managed where color wasn't the main criteria. Not that I would want to see the dun factor lost, I just want all the duns and solids to have good conformation. If you set it up right where only good conformation gets in you will start seeing a lot better conformation.
It seems like we've had enough outside blood already. Not that I would never cross to an Andy or Luso because I would. But I've always wondered if the foal was dynamite would the other breed get the credit? For some reason I only wonder that about Andy and Luso crosses and not about other half-kigers that we have now. Must be me.
Hardest thing I think is to have a registry that will be here and still doing right 10, 20, 30, 50 years from now. I have no idea how to make that happen but it's the biggest need I see.
I think right now is a time where there is a lot of name recognition behind the Kigers and people are curious. Maybe the registration should be more expensive and part should go to helping people who get out and show in open shows. It's expensive and time consuming to do that. I don't know how an incentive fund works - how does it work?
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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OkieKigers
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(Date Posted:01/11/2007 9:08 AM)
Mostly, I'd like to see a constitution with Kiger/Riddle horses at the fore...one that could never be challenged and could never be altered in order to benefit individuals.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Ridgie
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5#
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(Date Posted:01/11/2007 6:19 PM)
Reply to : OkieKigers
Mostly, I'd like to see a constitution with Kiger/Riddle horses at the fore...onethat could never be challenged and could never be altered in order to benefit individuals.
I'm sorry, but can you explain what you had in mind as a constitution? Thank you.
Nicole
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prizmbluekigers
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 12:53 AM)
I'm not going to jump in with lots of ideas about the registry guidelines now as many of you have been at this way longer than have, but I agree that education is important, and would be willing go to shows in my region, where representing the breed by a demo, literature, pictures and/or a video, etc will reach folks. I'm not offering one of my horses to demo as they are not ready - soon I hope, but I would be wiling to staff a booth. I will also help if a new registry is formed. Count me in for recordkeeping, data entry, phone calls, newsletter, PR, whereever I can help. We are so spread out across the country, we might want to consider one registry, one set of rules and perhaps regional and national involvment. Rewards, or awards if we have them could be done the same way with recognition of outstanding effort for the breed.
We have been hammering away at this registry issue long enough that I feel we can do it right now, and it can't hurt to discuss an infusion of "outside" blood, if that is what we want. At this point, almost no idea is all bad. I could never see how a horse from a HMA other then Kiger/Riddle could be a Kiger anyway so if that rule is in place from the start enforcing it should follow nicely. For anyone who had a horse in question, we should all be able to research the background and act on the proof one way or the other.
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Bobbe
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OkieKigers
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7#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 1:13 AM)
The constitution pretty much declares the purpose of the registry. I'm for an ironclad one that nobody can screw with.
And I gotta say I'm for keeping it simple. The Kigers really really need a registry that is user friendly, not fancy-smancy.! Are we wanting to help the horses or just pump up our egos? Please, make it a registry that is inviting to new people, not difficult. No hoops, please.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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EquQuest
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8#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 4:07 AM)
" But I've always wondered if the foal was dynamite would the other breed get the credit?"
Dianne, that is a good question, but does it really matter? I guess it would if you are only using the outside blood for first generation foals, but I would hope that it would be used by serious breeders to improve stock. JP has seen alot of crosses. He has said (surprisingly) of mine that they look purebred....to me this says that most other crosses do not; the Kiger adds alot to the table in keeping the Iberian type.
Even if you were going for the first generation crosses, what's wrong with selling a half Luso foal for $8,000.00?? Especially if it had stripes.
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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OkieKigers
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9#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 7:51 AM)
Outcrossing is the logical way to bring in traits that a breed lacks or to solidify traits that a breed may be weak in.
So first, you (collectively) decide if that's what you want to do.
The only thing is,
1) we have bigtime scars on the reputation of this breed already, from horses being introduced for profit reasons rather than for breed improvement reasons.
2) If you are going to do such a thing then you have to know in advance what specific traits you want to introduce, no hodge-podge here. And you'd better have a well-thought out plan.
3) But gee whiz, did you forget that WE don't define the Kiger Mustang? They are already identified as mustangs of Spanish phenotype, predominating in dun factor, and that are managed by the BLM. So, from my point of view (I realize there are other ways to look at it), but seems to me if we are adding outside blood, even if it is from Spanish strains, then what we really would be doing is creating something different and wouldn't really have the moral right to call them Kigers anymore. Kigerlusians maybe, or whatever, but not KIGERS. "Kiger Mustang is the name given to wild mustangs that are maintained in two herd Management Areas, managed by the BLM" , and guys, thats a quote from government documents. Are we really so big-headed to think we have the right to take the name, but change the design? To me, only the BLM has that perogative.
What did I miss here? Rick mentioned starting over and within just a couple of posts we are talking about re-creating the horse. I thought he meant having the people start over in order to bring integrity back to the breed....not have people start over with new breeding plans in order to change the breed. Rick if I misunderstood you, redirect me. It's my own feeling that these horses can be improved upon within the current genepool, and also my feeling that no matter what we do, the BLM will always rock the cradle.
I'm not at all against out-crossing as it is how traits are secured and solidified..but considering the source of these horses, I would certainly oppose doing it while attempting to retain the name that is associated specifically with Kiger/Riddle mustangs. In fact, I think it's damn presumptuous. It's that kind of thinking that put a black mark on the Kigers in the first place. After all, the BLM is the original equipment manufacturer of Kigers and they are still very much in business.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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EquQuest
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10#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 4:14 PM)
Hey, Bettye, calm down! I thought we were just making suggestions here? Rick has, in the past, looked into the other Iberian breeds, including bringing some Sorrias over, so it is not like it has not been thought of before!!
Just because you use different breeds during foundation breeding, does not mean you have to change names and call them something else...many other breeds use outside stock for times in history when improvements and such need to be made. The good columbian Paso Fino breeders STILL use a Lusitano stallion every nine generations for size and bravo...and that is a gaited breed to a non-gaited breed. QH's have the thoroughbred still allowed for cerain crosses and generations, and the Paints use QH and thoroughbred also.
And I disagree to some extent that the improvements can be made within the breed. First off, you have the BLM controlling what comes in or stays out....then you have private breeders that are going to do what they want anyway - even if other blood is brought in. Can you say to each breeder - this horse is okay to breed and this one is not? on what grounds?
The Kigers have blood from different backgrounds. That blood can pop up in different places for many many generations. They are neither pure in genetics or pure in phenotype. No mystery. What would be bad (except saving face, and still having a struggling breed) with bringing in lines that are proven and more solid in production? Gosh, the Spanish did it......even Mexico has the Azteca!
Overall, Kigers breeders need to use more culling and less sales pitches! But lets' be honest here too. You don't have a bunch of rich horse people breeding Kigers. Many are just average folks, doing something they love with the horses they love and trying to make things better in any way they personally can. There in nothing wrong with that, until you decide thier breeding stock is not good enough and now they have to revamp the whole kit and kaboodle. First, they will have horses deemed unfit for breeding, so thier $$ value drops, then they got to go out and get more expensive stock to restart......hard to swallow!
If you bring in outside blood and people can breed thier mares for $1,000.00 to improve stock, well, that is more palatable and more realistic. I know that JP for one, would make a very good deal if there was a whole group of breeders that wanted to breed to his stallion....(just an example here!). If you guaranteed most breeders 20-30 breedings a year, I am sure they would be happy to lower the costs.
OR, pick some good Kiger stallions and do what Portugal does....cover mares for free or VERY nominal costs to quickly up the quality of stock. We have to be able to help the breeders that are already trying to benefit the breed, you can't just come in and wipe the slate clean and say "yeah" and "nay" across the board. Talk about people jumping ship!
OR, like I said before, have a few different strains.....some can stick with the pure Kiger; let some cross with Iberian stock or some with another breed. You can have your pure Kigers, your Iberian Kigers and so forth. WIth rules and regulations, each can be registered in a different catagory. There is alot of ways to go.
With all the crap being thrown at the KMA, how do you think the breed will be able to be "started over"? Do you think they will listen to anything Rick has to say? of you? or any of the Found Horse Patrol? So, see, in reality, it would be quite impossible to start the whole breed over. There are too many entities involved. You will have to step up and create a GOOD registry with a solid BOD and a solid mission statement. You can't just say you are going to make a better Kiger, I think that has been toted for years with no actual result other than slinging mud. If your main concern is to save face because of what has been done in the past, then that will be of NO benefit to anyone, especially the horses.
The reputation of the Kiger is not going to improve quickly. And I am not sure about the "moral" issue you speak of (hello pot, this is kettle - you're black), but again, let's get down to making improvements instead of saving face - what little that may be! Open your mind and see what other countries have done to benefit the horses.
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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DianneC
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11#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 5:50 PM)
Even if you had free breeding to a great stallion for just the cost of AI, one of the big problems is using mares that really shouldn't be bred. So the fundamental and ongoing problem is conformation as the basis of registration. And how does that get solved in a user friendly way? Most breeders are small and work for a living in very different parts of the country. How do you get their horses inspected? and who would do it that doesn't have any self interest? I see this as a major hurdle.
I can see having different divisions, and Iberian (there's that word again Bettye) Kigers could be part of it. But I think Bettye is right, Kiger Mustang should mean purebred Kiger from Kiger or Riddle.
How much can we count on the BLM for future breeding stock? Its been great in the past, the horses that have been being turned back out have been the best. But what if that changes?
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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OkieKigers
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12#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 7:23 PM)
RICK AND SORRAIAS? ROFLMAO!!!!
I atually have the feeling you are mostly interested in doing J.P. a favor along with meeting a client base that is geared towards the Andalusians more than the Kigers..Outcross all you want, the combinations would certainly produce some nice horses, I have no doubt. . I'm just saying don't call the results "Kigers" or register the results as "Kigers".
Failing to be true to the Kiger/Riddle herds is what hurt the Kiger reputation so much in the first place.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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EquQuest
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13#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 7:49 PM)
RICK AND SORRAIAS? ROFLMAO!!!!
LAYW (laugh all you want), but I happen to know alot of people in alot of different places....and I have heard it from more than one source in casual conversation. I'm not calling anyone to the carpet, I am just saying, this has been something that had been floating around the breed for a long time - infusion of "iberian" blood. Rick himself posted here he once looked into the Luso and Andy, but since they could not walk in the snow, decided agianst it.
I very much agree with Dianne in regards to breeders maybe not being able to rely on the BLM much longer - thay have thier own agendas.
Don't misconstrue what I say either. It would be quite lovely to just have the best pure Kigers and be able to produce as such. I love them to the bottom of my heart. It is a shame though, that in my mind, what I want to breed, is not readily available. I am sure other breeders feel that way about what it is exactly they care to breed also. It is hard to come by. My reasoning for crossbreeding to the Luso is two fold. 1) to produce stock that is more consistant with a more solid gene pool; 2) to be able to show and promote the Kiger (even though it may only be half), in larger arenas, such as the IALHA. Period. Get some heads turned and then start opening the doors a little more to purebreds.
What the wild will produce is not neccesarily good for what people want to utilize them for. So, choosing animals out of the wild, with an outlook to future production has to have some thought and education around it. Agian, there are some long time breeders on this forum that can really enlighten us as to what we can expect 3-4 generations later. You know it changes.
A simple example is - IME (in my experience) with Kigers and other mustangs - they develop as trotting fools. That is most comfortable and efficent for thier needs in the wild. IME, the longer they have been wild, the harder it is to develop a good canter (anyone else care to add some input here?). Zorro was a SOB to get a decent canter out of. Madonna had a huge trot that she could do all day. The new mare I have is the same way. Charro, on the other hand, has one of the best canters and he passes it (disclaimer - most times). Biomechanically, you can develop a good trot and a pretty good walk, however, a canter has to be there. simple as that. while you can make it better to some degree, either a horse has it or doesn't.
So, one of the things I see that changes over generations is the better canter. Has anyone else noticed this?
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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EquQuest
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14#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 8:49 PM)
I do agree that Kiger Mustang should be reserved for the horses off of the HMAs. But, considering what a "mustang" really is, can we call F3 stock mustangs anymore? (Being as it takes 3 generations to breed something into or out of a line)
How about Kiger Mustangs for the real ones; then just Kigers for private bred generations? I know at one point Rick wanted to loose the Mustang word anyway - like his Steens Kiger Breed.
Right now the Kiger is a versatile horse. Just like any other breed, hopefully soon, breeders will develop certain strains that excel in some areas. So, the paramaters of what the breed in now, and what it will be in the future will evolve regardless.
As far as the point system on conformation, that will be hard, I agree. And sure, people would still breed undesirable mares to these stallions, but in an overall view, it would improve regardless. A good prepotent sire on a sorry mare is still better than a sorry stallion and a sorry mare, no? They don't discriminate in Portugal, they just raise the standard across the board. That's the best you can do.
In the website I posted - El PRE - if you look at the horses for sale, each horse shows it's measurements; ideally at age 3; and must fit into a certain parameter. A point system is implimented this way.
There is a great example from the book "Classical Equitation Simplified" by Dr. Stephen Aust. This talks of a "Riding Horse Conformation Scale". There are 100 possible points and nothing under an 80 should be bred.
It is a very detailed account and something that can be done from pictures.
Something that can be done, is to take horses in the Kiger breed that are desirable, take measurements, angles and such, then average that info into a point system. There could be horses presented for base evaluation at the start; they could be voted on whether yes or no that they should be included for the basic average and go from there.
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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lindad
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15#
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 9:10 PM)
Michelle,
Can you use the photo of my stallion posted already to measure and get a ballpark idea of how he stacks up and loosely apply the point system? ( I realize that the system is for another breed and would have to be scaled for the Kiger breed if something like that was adoted for Kigers. I submitted that particular photo because it was shot from a straight on sideview so that he can be picked apart. You will not offend me, I assure you. He is a nice horse, certainly not perfect. I respect Bettye for trying to be sensitive to everyone's feelings but I want to learn as do others and I offer up my own 3 year old as a willing subject. I learned alot on the websites that you posted and also comfirmed I do know a good number of things.
Linda D
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If I think I can, or I think I can't, I'm right!
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Verano
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 9:17 PM)
Been staying out of this since I'm not and never will be a "breeder" of kigers ,however, a button has been pushed ...so,FWIW,In my opinion,the trouble with kiger breeding started at the begining when the entire focus of this "breed" was color.You can look at any of the other color -based breeds and see the same problem with conformation taking a back-seat as long as the desireable palomino.paint,appy,buckskin color was produced by the breeding stock.Look at some stallion ads for these "breeds" and you'll see,"100%color guarenteed" but not much else offered(athelic ability,disposition,etc),of course it is harder to predict those characteristics,while color is more easily gentically predictable.
So what is a KIGER Mustang ?It's NOT a dun w/stripes on it's legs,they can be found in lots of horses....it's Not a horse that "looks Spanish" again,lots of those around too.IT IS ,a horse genetically related to a herd of wild mustangs located in an area of Southern Oregon & managed by the BLM.Now, I know about the horses brought in from other places early on to "improve or increase the gene pool" and there's not much that can be done about that now, but to call any other horses Kiger just isn't right,no matter what color it is,if it's not from that HMA ,it's NOT Kiger.
I thought that when I sent Amigo's hair sample for DNA testing to have him registered ,that that proved he at least came from off-spring from that HMA .Isn't that the final way of proving who's a kiger & who isn't ? If the horse is tested at the time of registration & is proven to be genetically related to a horse in the data base that is BLM registed from Riddle or Steens it's a Kiger.Period.The gene pool must still be pretty small so even if a horse from a BLM adoption was never registered it's off spring could be tested for registration and still find markers within the data base that would prove it was related to some other registered horse on file.(or have I been watching too much CSI ??)
Frankly,I'm glad there was all this "hype" about the color of a kiger worth breeding because if Amigo had been born a dun,I never would have been able to afford him ,but as a bay,he was gelded and sold off for $500 bucks.Kiger breeders loss was my gain.
And don't get me wrong,I LOVE those flashy duns,it's what caught my eye to begin with,but when I laid my eyes on Amigo's little bay body,with his great bone,large feet ,long shoulder and Huge butt !!,I knew he was an exceptional horse and never even concidered NOT buying him because of his color.And horse people from all over who see him are equally impressed and often want to know more about kigers.The good kigers are their own best advertisement for the breed.
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pepperja
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tiffany1fantasy
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17#
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Rank:none
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From: USA
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 10:46 PM)
I may be a simpleton or I just don't get it. Why the insistance on outside breeds to make improvements, on what would eventually be called purebred Kiger Mustangs? I absolutely agree with this statement made by Verano
"So what is a KIGER Mustang ?It's NOT a dun w/stripes on it's legs,they can be found in lots of horses....it's Not a horse that "looks Spanish" again,lots of those around too.IT IS ,a horse genetically related to a herd of wild mustangs located in an area of Southern Oregon & managed by the BLM.Now, I know about the horses brought in from other places early on to "improve or increase the gene pool" and there's not much that can be done about that now, but to call any other horses Kiger just isn't right,no matter what color it is,if it's not from that HMA ,it's NOT Kiger."
It is that simple in my mind, is the gene pool so small that the Kiger can no longer improve itself and therefore outside horses need to be brought in? So we need to start over by adding a mix of something new and recreate? I have always been interested in breeding Kigers (if I were to pick a breed). Just because I love their silly dispositions (what won me over in the first place). By no means I am not against cross breeding, I have been cross breeding with my Mustang mare for years for ranch horses. But I call em' what they are wonderful half breeds. I feel that to start over means we all have to agree a Kiger Mustang is what Verano describes above and nothing more.
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website: aldrichfarm.com
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OkieKigers
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18#
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Rank:none
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From: USA
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 11:03 PM)
If someone is more interested in out-crossing I can't imagine why anybody would begrudge them that, and whatever they come up with would be of interest to all of us, and I for one would sure share in their enthusiasm.
But the thread is about starting over...not changing the horses, but starting over with the representation. To me that means, representing them as they currently are known to the public, which is as a select mustang population and their direct offspring. I for one, after years of the same old BS, am not the least bit interested in "starting over" with a program that implements techniques that are similar to the ones that have failed this breed so miserably in the past. These horses became popular in the first place because of their mustang heritage, not because they were Andalusians or Fresians, and not because a person or persons wanted to give the impression that making things complicated lended superiority to any organization or to the stock they accepted, who are often the full sibs of stock they rejected on the basis of color.
"Starting Over", to me, means for once having honest people with a "straight up" ideology, support an honest horse. Simple as that, no more, no less. No point system, either, KMA did that already and the end result is folks got to climb up on the top of their barn to take photos, then submit the photos, resubmit more photos, supply more documents, answer more questions, etc, etc, and then wait two years or better just to get papers that said Joe Blow signed off the horse. I mean, who needs that when the BLM has already issued a paper that qualifies the horse as a Kiger? At least some of us who have already been through that baloney are hungry for simplicity. I know I sure am no longer willing to go that old route. Life is just too short.
The advantage to a straight up Kiger registry is that it leaves people like Michelle, who wish to outcross to other established breeds, the opportunity to have their nucleaus horses documented. Whatever program they choose to implement outside that circle is their business and would be well received so long as it doesn't alter the horses as perceived by others within the circle. People who want to preserve what they perceive to be the primitive type will have the same access without feeling that the registry is diluting something valuable to them. . And people like me, who just want the cream of the current crop of Kigers to come to the surface, would have the access to registration without having to have our horses blessed by J.P. or Hardy first, let alone Manford!
None of us would be inhibiting the other in any way. No one is held hostage if a registry is grounded in a manner to provide documentation and promotions for what is already established.. But if you have a registry with tons of paper requirements and many ways to take the breed into other directions, then all you've got is what we have already had in the past...and it has not worked in the best interest of the Kiger mustang...quite the contrary, it has only worked in the best interest of a select number of individual people.
Maybe this thread will evolve into a full-blown discussion of changing the horses, but I still want to lean it into the directing of changing the representation of the Kiger, not changing the Kiger itself. Just an honest, git-r-done organization for an already visible breed. Take this breed away from its roots and you rob the mustang afficiando adopter of what they wanted in the first place..
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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EquQuest
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19#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:01/12/2007 11:42 PM)
Reply to : lindad
Michelle,Can you use the photo of my stallion posted already to measure and get a ballpark idea of how he stacks up and loosely apply the point system? ( I realize that the system is for another breed and would have to be scaled for the Kiger breed if something like that was adoted for Kigers. I submitted that particular photo because it was shot from a straight on sideview so that he can be picked apart. You will not offend me,
Linda, is he the dun stallion in the Croup thread that Bettye posted - the third one down? I will copy the pict over and start a new thread - tonight after feeding.....having a wet cold spell here in Texas!
I will list the criteria that the Conformation Scale calls for....it is used for any breed, with a focus on Good riding conformation. I will give my opinions FWIW, and then maybe others can have input also....?
I think some calls for a front view of the width of the chest, and another is if you can place an open fist between the elbow and first ribs for lateral flexability...size of feet and that they all match - I would guess symetrically - like not having one grow up, the other flat, etc. Nothing in regards to hooked ears or such!
Thanks for offering your horse! I will do one of my guys too and people can have input also.
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lindad
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 1:56 AM)
Yes Michelle, Bolero is the dun in the round pen 3rd photo down. My 2 yr old filly is just below him, not a good shot but straight side view. Remember this is for learning purposes, so candid and objective is what I expect.
Thanks,
Linda D
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Verano
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 4:36 AM)
I feel that the biggest harm done to the breed was when it became neccessary by one registry to only recognise "dun factor horses" as TRUE Kigers.That's like saying if you're breeding program specializes in BLACK arabians (and there are many who are willing to pay extra for a black arab) that all your foals that are produced by your registered,purebred arabs that are not born black,are not arabs !No breeder would ever do that.Sure,they may sell that foal for less than a black,but they'd still have the same pedigree & have the same potential as any foal from that sire & dam.
That's why breeders who specialize in color only ,need to be even MORE careful about their stock so that the quality is always there,no matter what the color of the coat.Then you can rest easy at foaling time cause you know you've done your best for that foal to give it the best opportunity to have a good life & be desired on the over-crowded equine market.
I know I 've said before that I believe there are some very pre-potent lines in the Kiger breed that have resulted in many Kigers that "look" like they are siblings when there is no known direct relative and those horses ,to MY eye, are what the breed should strive to maintain.These horses are noble & very distinctive appearing right from the get-go.I've seen photos of very young foals that have "that look" & that to me, is a KIGER.They don't need to be mixed with any breed to get that,they're born with it. We need to protect that or leave them alone,after all,they've been doing it right without people for perhaps hundreds of years. Lets try not to screw them up !
I don't have anything against some one cross-breeding Kigers with other breeds to acquire other characteristics ,but don't call them anything but 1/2 Kiger.In fact ,I think Kigers could cross well with several breeds...but only a Kiger who's family tree goes back to BLM Kiger HMA's is a KIGER Mustang(and yeh,the MUSTANG part is very important to preserve too !!)
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pepperja
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AmericanKigers
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 8:07 AM)
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EquQuest
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 3:31 PM)
Ah, I just knew this was going to get ugly! Thought this was just about suggestions, not another Found Horse thread.
Okay, set down what a REAL Kiger is. If you say it simply must come from the Kiger/Riddle herds, then I guess the litte downhill, thin hipped guy in the croup thread is a REAL Kiger. If that is your definition, then let someone breed him too. But I know that is not what you are after. Where is your criteria going to be there? I would gather it is LOUD AND CLEAR that no found horse blood would dare be used or registered or whatever, so let's not go there.
[font=Comic Sans MS]Wish there was an icon with the smiley guy hitting himself in the head with a bat....
If crossbreeding has not worked, then I guess the Appendix QH's are a bad idea.....I guess Paint blood should stay Paint to Paint and really screw the breed instead of bringing in some solid QH's as improving.....I guess they should just stick with Appy to Appy......need I go further? Do some research on crossbreeding and bringing in other blood and educate yourselves on the benefits. Of course it needs to be done right!
And HELLO, it was just a suggestion folks! Read the whole post without seeing  red and look at it realistically. It is great to say what you want to ideally do in a perfect world (I think that is called LaLaLand  ), but you can say it all day long and not be able to impliment a do-able solution.
Hey, point me in the direction of some good stock, make it so I can afford it, make superior stallions available and affordable to breed to and I'm all over it! Give me a registry where I can actually GET my papers in a timely fashion or ANY fashion, help me promote my horses, show me support without saying that every horse I bought is a piece of crap or tell everyone that you - as a fellow breeder - will never sell me a good horse (talk about hurting the breed!), educate me on good breeding, health care, training/handling and marketing.......yeah, I will jump right on that ship. No doubt!
I don't see that happening, I have seen no solid evidence as of yet, even when it comes to suggestions on this thread.....HOW do you propose we start over 
Golly, doesn't the BLM cull the herd.....so in reality, what comes out of the Kiger/Riddle herds is mostly NOT desirable for breeding in the BLMs eyes. And what is everyone buying and breeding??????????????? Trying to build a breeding program, starting out with culls??? You need to call it what it is if you are going to be so set on what is up in those mountains.
Personally, I don't really care if anyone wants to put in different blood or not. But give me solid solutions to an existing issue. John Lyons once told Eric he needed to develop a system that everyone could do......I see how that can really apply here to.
As far as using DNA as proof, it is my understanding that only the maternal line DNA is testable for reliable markers. This means the sire could be half elephant and it would not show up. So, you could show Kiger blood, but not know what the other blood is.....someone help me out if this is incorrect.
Isn't there already a venue for people who want to start the breed over? The Steens Kiger Breed? Not trying to be sarcastic here, I just thought that venue was already established?
Janice....
Don't muddy up what I am suggesting here with being in line with the Found Horse Manure. I think everyone gets the point that certain people don't agree with it, never will and are trying to change that and get that blood out. OKAY; we got it. Though, I certainly would not put using a $100,000.00 Luso/Andy stallion for improvement in line with using a $125 animal from some other HMA. That is just nonsense.
and exactly WHAT are the best interest for the Kigers......let's quit talking in general, sweeping statements and get down to what that means. Tell me, please.
Bettye.....
you want to change the representation of the Kiger. what does that look like. I am not understanding. You mean, how they are promoted? The horses that you allow out in public to represent? What?
Someone tell me what are the traits you want to perpetuate in the Kigers.
Why do we need to "start over"? ( and I don't give a hoot about the Found stuff being brought into this issue)
How does that ideal fit into changes across the board, because to change a breed, EVERYONE has to move forward and participate.
If you have your own ideal of what you want, then you better come up with a different name, as the Kiger Mustang is already established; it is what it is; no matter how much you want to spend in a tizzy over it.
Let's be Positive and Progressive.
Rick, you got everyone going, what do you suggest?
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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EquQuest
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 3:44 PM)
This thread is under Color, Conformation and Type (and that is what we were talking about before), so I figured that is what we are talking about here, that is were the improvements were wanted (longer croups), I guess I misunderstood!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, let me refocus....
Let's start with a registry that will at least get the horses registered and papered. PLEASE. There has been mention of another registry.....will someone email me privately and let me know what is in the works? Kigers@RanchBayo.com
How can the breed improve or be respresented better when papers cannot be gotten to prove what the heck they even are? I can promote and show my purebred Kigers, but the breed does not get the credit. Nor do they get listed in my crossbred papers, because I don't have any papers to send in with my registries.
I have heard of all kinds of politics and papers being held up because of personal vendetas, laziness, unorganization, etc. I don't know where to send my money or waste my time first. I have over 20 horses to register.....someone send me something that guarantees my papers within a month and I will write a check today.
I always thought it was a shame that alot of Kiger owners did not register, but I can now understand why. That also makes it very difficult to track bloodlines, etc. and solidify the breed.
Hey, on a side note, if anyone knows of a Geronimo colt that is being bred, I would appreciate that info being passed on to me, thanks!
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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Skybar
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 5:09 PM)
Reply to : EquQuest
Ah, I just knew this was going to get ugly! Thought this was just about suggestions, not another Found Horse thread.Okay, set down what a REAL Kiger is. If you say it simply must come from the Kiger/Riddle herds, then I guess the litte downhill, thin hipped guy in the croup thread is a REAL Kiger. If that is your definition, then let someone breed him too. But I know that is not what you are after. Where is your criteria going to be there? I would gather it is LOUD AND CLEAR that no found horse blood would dare be used or registered or whatever, so let's not go there.[font=Comic Sans MS]Wish there was an icon with the smiley guy hitting himself in the head with a bat....If crossbreeding has not worked, then I guess the Appendix QH's are a bad idea.....I guess Paint blood should stay Paint to Paint and really screw the b
I was not shooting for this to be my first post here, but oh well. I have been lurking for quite a while and following all of the recent posts with avid fascination. I have watched this breed for a few years now and really hoped that smarter heads would prevail and turn this breed around and not mess it up like so many other breeds have done before it. The idea of outcrossing is to improve another breed, not your own breed, which is why the Arabian has been used in so many different breeds. The statement above about Appendix QH is why I had to post. I have bred QH's for quite a long time now and have watched a legendary horse pretty much turn to crap because of money. People who have it and people who want it have bastardized this breed. No longer can you take a halter horse and go into a pleasure class and then turn around and go doctor cows with that same horse. The breed has become so segregated and specialized, that none of them even look remotely similar to each other. You have halter horses who cannot ride, pleasure horses who have maybe a soundness life of 7 years before their joints have to be injected on a weekly basis to appear sound, and performance horses (reining ~ cutting) who break down quicker due to all the impact at an early age so their trainers and owners can win some money. Where does the TB falls into this whole mess ? We now have "QH's" who do not even remotely look like a QH anymore. Look back to the foundation QH's. Do you see any that were over 16h ? This was not what the TB was to be used for. They have turned the QH's into TB giants! No longer can you even recognize 80 % of the horses in the Western and English Pleasure classes. They look like TBs, they have no chest and no backend, and a topline that does not end. This is not a QH anymore. TB's were brought in to add a little speed to an already agile and quick turnaround body. From there breeders and judges alike promoted the TB's over the QH's. When that starts going on, people start following the money, and there you have what my beloved breed has turned into.
You (Kiger Breeders & Owners) have a wonderful pure breed. In all breeds you are going to have undesirable traits in certain horses. The answer, don't breed those horses. Breed for the superior ones. That is not difficult to do with the horses some of you currently have. Yes, it will take generations of careful breeding, yes some culling will have to go on, but stay true to your breed. Come up with a breed standard and stick to it. Solidify it through generations of careful breeding. Create an inspection process that is not political. It has to be true to the breed as a whole. Dna each and every horse and keep proper breeding records so that future generations can refer back and see what has worked and what has not worked. The idea earlier of stallion owners offering free or reduced breeding fees, is a good one, but you have to make sure that the mares coming in and the studs being bred to are of good quality. You can not breed crap to crap and think your going to get a rose garden. That was tried in the Arabs and the QH's and it failed and continues to fail.
Once you have solidified your breed, let the other breeds come to you to improve their own breed! You cannot dilute your own and still stay true to the pure Kiger. You have all the genetics you could possibly need to breed for excellent quality Kigers. And in this day and age with AI there is no reason not to use those genetics to improve your breed.
I have seen superior Kigers and I have seen not so superior Kigers, you geld the not so superiors, and in the case of the mares that are not so superior, just because you can does not mean you should breed it.
And before anyone goes slamming me about what I have posted about TB's. I currently own two Appendix mares. I believe there is a place for them in the QH breed, but a small place.
Stepping of my soapbox.
Kara
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Kara
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EquQuest
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 5:40 PM)
Kara, you are a brave woman for stepping in, welcome to the insanity!
As far as using the TB in the QH lines, I personally think there should have been a cap or restrictions or whatever. Take for example the formation of the QH breed. many different combinations were used - heck, wasn't John Hancock (or something like that) a percheron? BUT, in Texas, they used TB stallions on range (mustang) mares....but they did not stay there forever. Sooner or later you start breeding your generations together with no other blood. But every breed has to start somewhere, from some stock.
You are right on when you say that crossbreeding is used to improve another breed, that would be the point of bringing in outside blood -------- for improvement....
The reason to utilize Iberian blood would be BECAUSE the Kiger HAS Andy/Luso and Sorria blood. You are going back to the roots and solidifying what is GOOD about your breed. Pure and simple. IF you were to do that, you don't keep doing it indefinately!
Yes, the Kiger may be pure unto itself - with it's own strain markers, but there is still other blood cursing through those veins, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I think the Arab is pretty much the only PURE modern breed!
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AmericanKigers
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 6:29 PM)
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Verano
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 7:36 PM)
Yes Michelle, that skinny,rafter hipped,ewe-necked horse-from the Riddle/Steens HMA IS a KIGER,as is the cow-hocked,long-backed,hyper horse from registered Arabs,an Arab,and the tiny-hooved ,muscle-bound horse from registered QH parents...well you get it. But,should anyone use these animals as breeding stock ???Of course not.
Breeding horses need to be the best of their breed or at the very least have better than average qualities that have the possibility to be passed on in future generations.We actually went over the topic of desireable conformation traits last year ??? maybe winter too.Seems this time of year more folks show-up as long as the power stays on.
Sun's out here & i'm off to my riding lesson on Amigo.Ride those KIGERS!!
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pepperja
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kigers4ever
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 7:41 PM)
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Skybar
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(Date Posted:01/13/2007 7:56 PM)
The reason to utilize Iberian blood would be BECAUSE the Kiger HAS Andy/Luso and Sorria blood. You are going back to the roots and solidifying what is GOOD about your breed. Pure and simple. IF you were to do that, you don't keep doing it indefinately!
Your missing my point Michelle. You do not need to go back to the "roots". They are already there! You can solidify what is good and breed out what is bad by careful breeding and not being barn blind when deciding what is and is not good breeding stock. Breeders must be critical and willing to point out conformation, temperment and athleticisim flaws and do what it takes to eliminate those flaws. Improve upon what you have, solidify it for generations to come. For example: My senior stallion puts his stamp on about 90% of his foals. This was possible because his line was scruitinized to enhance the good traits, and eleminate the not so desirable. Does he have flaws ? Yes. I would like a better tie in at the neck and his pasterns are a little longer than I would like. But, people who have seen his grand sire recognize my stallion out of that line immediately. My purpose and goal now, are to get that better tie in and shorten those pasterns, and at the same time not lose the good traits that his grandsire is famous for. I want to be able to look 5 - 10 generations down the road and see my stallion and mares in those generations and be able to see the improvemnts made within the line. I'm not talking inbreeding here.
Another example is Betty's Casper. She understands he has a weak hip. She strives to breed him to Kiger mares that will improve on that hip. I suspect that she will take that resulting foal and breed that to something with an equal if not better hip to solidify that ideal. That's what I would do at least.
If you breed outside of the Kiger breed your are diluting the genes, and the genes you are striving for in the outcross might show up in that first generation, but what happens when you take that resulting foal back to a full Kiger ? Within 3 generations I bet you will not see anything of your "outcross horse". So what was gained ? You might have put a buck in your pocket, but what did you do to improve the Kiger breed ? This is why I stress building a better horse using the Kigers you currently have. The building blocks are already there. Make those lines solid and improve them. Once you can know for sure what your going to get with each cross, then and only then, maybe consider bringing in outside blood to enhance the Kiger breed as a whole, not one particular mare. It might not even be necessary to outcross if breeders carefully select breeding stock. The breed is no near where it needs to be for this to even be a thought though at this point.
Don't cheapen the breed in trying to make a quick fix by breeding to an outcross.
Kara
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Kara
Visit Argo's Blog
http://argosjourney.blogspot.com
www.skybarfarm.com
GOD, grant me the serenity to take in as many horses as possible,
The courage to convince my husband this is a good thing and the
wisdom to know how to accomplish this task.
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