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prizmbluekigers
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1#
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Rank:none
Score:116
Posts:84
Registered:03/09/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/08/2007 12:59 AM)
Reply to : Kiger Dreaming
Received this email. Seems to me that it's KMA with a new name. If I'm wrong please let me know. ToniHi Toni,I've been busy lately with the formation of a newassociation and registry. Check it out athttp://www.kigerhorse.org We are striving for anassociation that is more member-oriented while stillmaintaining the intrigity of the Kiger breed in theregistry. It is still in its infantacy, butdeveloping every day. Come join us!Jillian McIntosh
Take a look at the listed officers and that should be enough of an answer. This is one road I will never go down. Now it seems we may have two branches of the same quagmire.
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Bobbe
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OkieKigers
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2#
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Rank:none
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From: USA 
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(Date Posted:02/08/2007 7:05 PM)
"While maintaining integrity within the breed"? Is that what she said? With all those found horses? and..get ready to have your mailboxes flooded with all that behind-the-scenes-artillliary we are so familiar with.
Usually, I'd say, whoever wants to give it a shot, power to them, but ...Nope, this sure ain't the new registry I want.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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RodeoVixxen
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3#
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Rank:none
Score:58
Posts:42
Registered:09/09/2002
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 4:16 AM)
I don't understand Bettye. why is this not a good thing? I don't follow the politics nor know them. Can you explain this to me either on here or email so no one gets offended?
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Ex-lovers make great speed bumps!
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Kiger-sales
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4#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 5:20 AM)
Over the last 19 years there has been things that made me ashamed that we ever started this breed but to day is absolutely the worst I have ever felt . For the horses not the people.
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OkieKigers
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5#
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Rank:none
Score:3536
Posts:1952
From: USA
Registered:09/03/2002
Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 7:10 PM)
Reply to : RodeoVixxen
I don't understand Bettye. why is this not a good thing? I don't follow the politics nor know them. Can you explain this to me either on here or email so no one gets offended?
Oh, hon, you've been around too long, I bet you do know something of the politics. Horses that are not Kigers have being passed off as Kigers for 15 years. Not to improve the breed, but to line pockets.
As for offending anyone, you can't inhale around here without offending somebody. But then, we can't all have the same point of view, it would make for a dull world.. I'm vocal alright, but probably not very popular. Ciest la vie, the right to express an opinion is still there, eh?.
I believe KHAR will certainly solve the problem of untimely registration, which is a very important thing. I bet that they will get accolades for rapid transit of paperwork.. Something that will encourage other registries to step to the plate in that respect.
But beyond that, it appears to carry with it the same set of problems that existed in the KMA. Namely, the promotion of found horses (pseudo-Kigers) , people reported to be prone to infighting, and a farciful inspection process.
I will oppose the found horse fiasco for as long as I own Kiger horses. Period. Not because adding some outside blood is a horrible thing, but because It was done for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way and conducted underneath the sheets at the expense of unsuspecting innocent buyers. It therefore costs us the opportunity to represent these horses as honestly as they should have been represented. .
And I simply will never respect an inspection process when it is conducted by amatuer owners. When processed by the unqualified, it becomes a self-important procedure that actually harms breed credibility, magnified when one considers the BLM source of this breed . If the U.S. Goverment issues a title on a horse saying it is a Kiger, then no inspection process in the world can change that fact. Pictures say a lot about where this breed is headed, and right now it doesn't look real good. Things were actually more promising back in 1995! The KHAR photo gallery confirms to me that we are light years away from having professional horsemen involve themselves with Kigers : pix of out-of-shape so-called endurance pairs (duh! an endurance rider has to be as fit as the horse!) , and reiners on fear-eyed horses being cranked, mouth gaping, to a stop. (yecch!) Now I can only assume the people in those pictures are the KHAR "inspectors", since some of them held similar positions in the past in KMA. Professional horsemen will continue to be put off...not so much by the Kigers, but by the Kiger owners who claim to be on a professional level, and when I see pictures like that I feel it just is not the case. I certainly realize that we can't all be Bobby Ingersoll, I personally am about as amateur a rider as they come. And there is certainly nothing wrong with being a novice or even a slightly below-average or even a slightly above-average rider. But that's not what qualifies a person to be an inspector in my mind. I have sense enough to identify hype, am only saying that the Kiger community, as a whole. implies credentials that it actually lacks, and that kind of thing always catches up to itself eventually.. On a personal note, I just am not the least bit interested in having my horses evaluated by people who are no more skilled than I am, and in some cases, less skilled. That's just how I feel about it. To submit to that process is a waste of time and money. as far as I'm concerned . I'm sure I have incensed some people by voicing my impression of the photos mentioned, but that IS the impression that I got.
This just looks too much like KMA, quicker paperwork is its only virtue that i can see. Otherwise it's the same airplane, just a different pilot. No, I'm not interested in this one, especially since the options are plentiful. I do not believe the KHAR can change the present situation where, the most valuable Kiger papers you can get still come from Uncle Sam.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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MysticKiger
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6#
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Rank:none
Score:237
Posts:185
From: USA
Registered:09/07/2002
Time spent: 4965 hours
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 7:32 PM)
Personally, I'm interested in finding out more about English Reining!
........ and how does a horse with up to 39% outside blood qualify as a Traditional when a full blooded grey qualifies as Part????
Karen
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"You must learn to read the horse's expression. The horse has multitudes of actions and reactions. They are all separate, yet inseparable. The horse will always tell you the facts. The horse is very honest." Ray Hunt
Riding turns "I wish" into "I can" __ Pam Brown
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Verano
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7#
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Rank:none
Score:268
Posts:232
Registered:07/23/2003
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 8:09 PM)
As usual,Bettye,You are right on...at least Most of the time ! I have to burst your bubble on the reference to "out of shape endurance riders !!"There are plenty of them out there and if they're doing well,it's cause they ride exceptional horses.A good,fit ,experienced rider ,can get an average horse into the top ten,but when the opposite is true,it's the horse that deserves extra credit!
But back to the topic we all love to hate....last weekend at the clinic I attended,I saw a horse that would have been eligable to be a KMA kiger ,in fact when I first saw him,I ran up to his owner & said...ohhh,is that a kiger???She was a little taken back,not sure if she even knew what a kiger was,but,this colt was THE flashiest dun factor horse I've seen in ages.Huge dorsal with prominate wither stipes,stripes all up 4 legs,striped ears,frosted mane !!WHEW,what a lovely boy,good conformation & handsome head.....AND a pure bred,registered Quarter Horse!!!!
My point ?Inspection is not an option for registration of kiger mustangs.The ONLY horses that will ever be KIger Mustangs must be able to trace their relatives back to BLM branded horse from either Kiger HMA. Color doesn't matter only their bloodlines.A kiger is a breed developed in a specific place over many years,it's not a type or colored horse that comes from anywhere else.
To my mind,the KMA should have been DMA,or Dun Mustang Assoc. & then they could go the color,inspection route & no one would say boo,but since they were interested in money & not preserving the original horses uniqueness the horses' future is now threatened .What a shame
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pepperja
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OkieKigers
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8#
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Rank:none
Score:3536
Posts:1952
From: USA
Registered:09/03/2002
Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 8:41 PM)
Many years ago I had a long talk with veterinarian John Beall, one of the most respected vets in Oklahoma as well as in New Mexico. I remember he told me that most people who get into endurance have no idea what the sport really involves and a lot of people take a ride or two and then hang it up. He said it took a tremendous amount of dedication and physical discipline, and i guess i hang by his words. He was a helluva rodeo man in his early years, so he knows what physical demands can be placed upon a rider in a given sport. When i think about Vivian getting up at 3 a.m. so that she can condition herself and her horse, well, THAT's what I think of when I think about someone who is sincere about endurance!
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Verano
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9#
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Rank:none
Score:268
Posts:232
Registered:07/23/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/09/2007 9:27 PM)
Just checked out that new website and from the pics of "endurance kigers" i'd say most shots are of LD riders,meaning 25 mile races.Usually done as training for young horses or new riders or people who for whatever reason don't want to go the longer distance.I say this just by the type of gear on the horses & riders.
And Bettye,what you say is true.Endurance riders of all shapes and sizes are definitely dedicated to the sport & it takes an amazing amount of work & time to perform well .But there is a huge range of types of riders out there,from the marathon runners who are off running down the trail leading their horse for many miles of a 100 mile race to the rider who admits they NEVER get off their horse during a race fearing they would not be able to get back on(bad knees,backs.or?)but everyone out there on the trail is 100% committed to doing the best they can with what they've got.The top riders are all very fit or at least in great shape for the shape they're in!!
But endurance is a sport for everyone & the motto is "To Finish Is To Win" which is what I love about it.
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pepperja
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OkieKigers
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10#
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Rank:none
Score:3536
Posts:1952
From: USA
Registered:09/03/2002
Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 7:26 AM)
Well, I've been chewed out privately twice about this afternoon's post. I certainly didn't mean it the way a couple of people interpreted it. But I do apologize if it was interpreted as intending to be hurtful to an individual, by any reader.
As far as appearances, I am betting that I am much fatter and uglier than any rider mentioned. . I am quite sure that their pictures are far more flattering than any pictures of me on horseback would be. Riders come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and ages, and that's good.
But that's beside the point. The point I was trying to make is that I am not motivated to have horses undergo inspection, when it is executed by "plain old horse folks". And that is what those pictures convey to me...just plain horse people, people who are not that much different than me, for that matter.
But If I were a student in school, I would not want my semester final graded by another student.. If I have my car worked on, I want a mechanic, not my next door neighbor who just happens to also own a car. There is just no reason to have inspections if the inspectors are no more qualified than any of the horse owners. And that was my soapbox. I apologize to anybody who thought it was something more personal than that.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Kiger-sales
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11#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 8:33 AM)
Betty I am mad at you why you left out some things about the inspection problems.
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Skybar
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12#
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Rank:none
Score:40
Posts:28
From: USA
Registered:12/20/2006
Time spent: 8735 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 3:54 PM)
Reply to : MysticKiger
Personally, I'm interested in finding out more about English Reining!........ and how does a horse with up to 39% outside blood qualify as a Traditional when a full blooded grey qualifies as Part????Karen
Now Karen don't knock the English riders! LOL You personally have seen me do English Cutting. LMAO And heck under that new registry that EC horse would qualify as a Partblood! LMAO
Seriously though, even though I do not own a Kiger, I would like to say this: If you look at the new registry's by-laws and mandates of what a Kiger should be, the first thing they bring up is color, not conformation. This is nothing but a color registry run by amatuers. Their breed standard is laughable at best. I would love to know how you are supposed to see a dorsal stripe on a true black horse. A dorsal stripe on a bay horse of any breed is common. Doesen't mean they are a Kiger. Heck, I have a sorrel mare here that has a dorsal stripe 10 months out of the year! Should she qualify under their rules? She is a registered Foundation QH.
As for their disqualifications: 1 full stocking disqulifies the horse. So is it okay if they have 2, 3 or 4? Do they then qualify ? Lets go on: 4 socks disqualify a horse. Well is 1,2 or 3 qualifying?
The point is you cannot control white markings. I have seen it show up in a horse with 3 generations of solid horses behind it! So because of a white marking you are going to disqualify a full blooded Kiger, but allow one in that has little to no kiger blood in it and grant it registration?
AQHA screwed up by not registering excessive white horses. These were FULL BLOODED QH"S ! APHA gladly took these horses in and utilized them in the performance arena. One of the top earning reining horses was a crop out QH that they denied registration to. AQHA realized the error of their ways eventually and relaxed the white rule. They have noted that they prefer not to see the excessive white, but they do not deny them registration based on their color.
As far as the grays being exluded, they give exception to, in the form of hardship, registration privelges to a non-gray offspring from a gray horse. Duh!!!!!!!!! Do they not realize they are bringing the gray back in further down the road possibly? Gray is a dominant color. And even though they require any hardship horses' offspring to go through "examination" up until it's 5th birthday and if it does not turn gray it can keep it's papers, what about those horses', (and it will happen) who turn gray and have their papers pulled, ONLY BECAUSE OF COLOR, their owners are without a registry! What about the buyer who unkowingly paid a ton of money for a yearling that now has a 6 year old horse that had it papers pulled based on color alone? This will do more damage than you can imagine. All this does is line a few breeders pockets who knowingly sold a horse they knew had the possiblity of turning gray. This is as bad as the AQHA denying Cremellos registration due to color. At least AQHA had the brains (misguided as they were) to not throw in a hardship clause, that if that cremello it denied, produced a palomino (that's pretty much a given) they would register the palomino. Note: AQHA also reversed that one as well. Cremellos are now registerable. AQHA got it's head screwed back on a little straighter.
I am in no means saying AQHA is the model here, I am just saying all this new registry is, is a color registry and not worthy of anyones money unless you are just interested in it as a color registry.
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Kara
Visit Argo's Blog
http://argosjourney.blogspot.com
www.skybarfarm.com
GOD, grant me the serenity to take in as many horses as possible,
The courage to convince my husband this is a good thing and the
wisdom to know how to accomplish this task.
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Kiger-sales
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13#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 6:35 PM)
Skybar I never have copyed and pasted did not know how to but you hit the nail square on the HEAD.
Seriously though, even though I do not own a Kiger, I would like to say this: If you look at the new registry's by-laws and mandates of what a Kiger should be, the first thing they bring up is color, not conformation. This is nothing but a color registry run by amatuers. Their breed standard is laughable at best. I would love to know how you are supposed to see a dorsal stripe on a true black horse. A dorsal stripe on a bay horse of any breed is common. Doesen't mean they are a Kiger. Heck, I have a sorrel mare here that has a dorsal stripe 10 months out of the year! Should she qualify under their rules? She is a registered Foundation QH.
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zephyr creek
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14#
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Rank:none
Score:163
Posts:115
Registered:02/09/2003
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 7:44 PM)
I for one, am interested in watching the progress of this new registry. I know I am the outsider in this discussion, but try to keep an open mind. Bettye, I have many of the same concerns/problems that you do. I do not agree with the criteria to be an inspector, but having been around the warmbloods for so many years an inspection process does not put me off as much as it does many others. I would also be very interested to see the points listing (ie are the points stacked on the color side vs the conformation side.) I would be much more comfortable to have certified individuals that are not affiliated with the registry/breed. It would cost the registry $, but it would lend and air of professionalism to the registry, reduce conflict within the registry, and reduce conflict from those on the outside looking in.
I also question the color criteria. While I do understand that they are trying to follow the BLM management guidelines in selection of dun colored horses, we all know the base colors are going to pop out unless everyone is homzy dun. Seeing the exclusion of sorrels realy got to me! Bays, blacks, sorrels are just as much "kiger" as the dun. I can handle are few bonus point given for stripes, but lack of one should never exclude the above mentioned colors. Also they excluded Roan when we know that there have been a few roans on the HMA. I happen to know of one here in MI that is a dun roan that was adopted, not domestic bred. Is it fair that she should not be accepted, but a horse with 39% found blood is? Until the color genes can fully be understood there needs to be much care in excluding horses based on color. I do not know what the solution is, but if a grey kiger is adopted it is still a Kiger. Many may think it should not pass on the "grey" gene, but it is still a Kiger. I would hate to see 20 different categories, but maybe there could be a color exception catagory that would be similar or part of the appendix category??? I don't know.
We have had many discussions here about the found horse issue. Recently those discussions have centered around managing the outside blood versus excluding them. I agree. They are there wether we like it or not. I will admit that I could care less about hurting the big breeders that continue to breed found horse to found horse. My concern is for the individual that bought 1 or 2 horses of questionable heritage. They should not have to listen to condemnation or made to feel that there horse is less than another. I do question the 39%???? Plus I did not see anything strongly encouraging the breeding the found to found. It might be there somewhere, but I did not see it. It seems to me they are at least acknowledging the found blood, but I believe they need to go one step further and manage that blood!!!
The important thing to remember is that this is a member driven registry. Maybe instead of sitting back and criticizing everyhting, a mass goup of people of like minds should decide to join and do something about the items they object to. It would take time, but the membership is small right now so it would be easier to make a difference. Also, it seems to me they listened to a number of the conversation on this board, they did not necessarily agree, but they did address some of the issues. Maybe not enough for many of us, but it is a start. Try to forget about some of the history and exclude the emotional responses. Examine this from a logical standpoint. It is a start. It might not be the "right" start for many, but I think it is a step in the right direction at the very least.
PS. I am not a member, I did not even know about the new registry until it was posted on the MB last week. I am just trying to be openminded and look to the future of these horses. So far this new registry, while not a middle ground, is closer to the middle than any of the other registries. Yes they are definetely more KMA than SMKR, but while many might call me naive, it seems to me they are trying to create someting better than what already exists.
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The great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. Oliver Wendell Holmes
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OkieKigers
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15#
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Rank:none
Score:3536
Posts:1952
From: USA
Registered:09/03/2002
Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 11:22 PM)
Ellen, of course the organizers of KHAR are acknowledging found horses. They OWN them, breed them, and want a registry home for them (other than KMA). so that they can generate profits from them. Basic marketing concepts.
As far as inspection, I agree with you, in some organizations and when administered by a professional, it makes sense and should be respected. This just isn't one of those circles where it's applicable, considering that the BLM already certifies Kigers upon adoption. It carries even less respect where I'm concerned when it is color-driven and done by your friendly neighborhood Kiger owner. It means absolutely nothing, consumes time, paperwork, and effort. It's only done to look snazzy and make those appointed as inspectors feel important.. It can actually bog down a registry that isn't really equiped to expedite all aspects of it. And lets face it, these are mustangs, the registration bases are small no matter which Kiger registry you are talking about; I seriously doubt that the Warmblood people would be impressed with the Kiger people's idea of an inspection process. They would probably roll over in the floor..
Apart from the KHAR announcement, we've talked a lot about registries lately and I guess that is one reason for us to stop and consider just how fancy a Kiger registry needs to be. Usually, in any club only about 5-8% of the membership are acutally willing to roll up their sleeves. That alone should be a reason for pondering just how many committees and programs a registry would want to start out with. While Janice didn't like it very much when I said I thought one person wasn't enough long-term to hold down the fort, wouldn't it also be possible that an organization could end up with too many programs and not enough horses to participate in them, or not enough workers to execute them efficiently?
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Kiger-sales
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16#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 4:16 AM)
Well Zepher Creek after looking at the new found horse registry the real kigers still need one good HONEST registry. Like most are saying it is just another KMA made up of people booted out of kma.
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Verano
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17#
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Rank:none
Score:268
Posts:232
Registered:07/23/2003
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 4:57 AM)
One thing about the inspection process with Warmbloods is that it applies to horses with future breeding in mind.The horses brought for inspection are already registered,purebreds but are graded on conformation & movement. In certain countries horses cannot be bred unless they have been inspected & found suitable.
There are also inspections done on horses that are of an accepted breed for cross-breeding which must also be passed before those horses can produce offspring which can then be registered as purebreds.My trainer has a registered & branded Hannovarian filly that came from Germany who is 1/4 Arab on her papers.
The problem is finding qualified inspectors for a "breed" with such a short history and so much confusion,but personally,I have no objection to having breeding stock inspected and given a special designation when they pass certain conformation & movement guidelines.This is not the same as inspecting a horse to register him as a kiger but inspecting a registered kiger for breeding purposes.A breeding animal that had passed the insection process would become that much more valuable and help improve the future quality of the kiger mustangs.
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pepperja
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Kiger-sales
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18#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 6:45 AM)
As for inspection. Years ago Blitz was inspected by the jokes as kma inspectors they gave some where around 99 out of 100. Biltz is a great horse but : not balanced , bad head not real good feet and not in ANYWAY built like the horse that was to be a kiger. So what dose that say KMA inpsectors are greedy and new nothing about what a kiger was to be just as the new fake kiger regsity. I was there the day a Kiger horse was greated so it is for any of you out there want this breed to survie with any dignety get with it.
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OkieKigers
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19#
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Rank:none
Score:3536
Posts:1952
From: USA
Registered:09/03/2002
Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 8:22 AM)
Okay Rick, here goes....would you consider returning SMKR to a non-profit (fully vested) and give it over to a Board of Directors, that is if a Board could be compiled of persons who would commit to retaining the original SMKR statement of purpose? I know you did that back during the merger attempt, and another occasion, too...but my thinking is it would spare the confusion of a yet another registry.
P.S. In restrospect, though, its a good thing that merger attempt failed, isn't it?
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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DianneC
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20#
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Score:1278
Posts:886
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 5:26 PM)
The problem with that, Bettye, is that there are some horses in SMKR that people have said you wouldn't want in your new registry. You can't "unregister" SMKR horses and disqualify their get when their parents were sold as and registered as full Kiger in SMKR. There are quite a few in San Diego plus all my foals out of the Dakota line. I'll bet there are twenty five that I know about and probably many more.
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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SassyLas
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21#
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Registered:08/05/2006
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 6:23 PM)
"I'll bet there are twenty five that I know about and probably many more. "
And lots of us have heard that there are many more, some found horses as recently as the past few years registered, registered in SMKR knowing that they were found. I considered buying one registered SMKR Kiger until I found out it came from another HMA adopted in 2003.! How did that happen? And what about all the horses that show no pedigree? Where is the proof that these go back to Kiger or Riddle. Many have said SMKR is full of more found horses than KMA. Starting over is the best solution and some people have stepped up to the plate to do just that. Too bad for all the hate and prejudice coming from this board. Obviously none of you will be satisfied with any new registry.
Sally
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Kiger-sales
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22#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 6:25 PM)
For the Dakota horses and Augusta they would NOT be deregsitered but add Riddle/Pasly just like I have always said .
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Kiger-sales
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23#
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Rank:none
Score:1110
Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 8:34 PM)
Sally it seems that your just trying to cause trouble by using false things. In the 2003 hroses registered all are either from Kiger or Riddle that are frezze branded so why would you say that when is not true.
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OkieKigers
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24#
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Rank:none
Score:3536
Posts:1952
From: USA
Registered:09/03/2002
Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 9:10 PM)
Reply to : SassyLas
Starting over is the best solution and some people have stepped up to the plate to do just that.Too bad for all the hate and prejudice coming from this board. Obviously none of you will be satisfied with any new registry.
The very reason I threw that suggestion out there was to get feedback, since it had already been considered, might as well see what others thought of it.
To "Sally" Obviously you don't care for the above idea and intend to get behind the new KHAR. Go for it, babe. But not me. My impression of this is that it is a carbon copy of KMA established by two gals and their kinfolk for lack of ability to co-exist with KMA. They didn't have a problem with the format of KMA, obviously, since they decided to virtually mimic it. I have multiple reasons for not wanted to support either KMA or KHAR. Yep, there is the found horse thing. But there is also the fact that they are both so color driven.
A few years back I sold a dark dun mare to a man up the road, we bred her to our grulla stud beforehand. The mare didn't have a speck of white on her, and neither did either of her parents. My stud has a star, that's it; his sire had the same small star and his dam had no white.. His dams dam had a white marking and his dams sire had no white. So out of three generations we only know of minimal white. Every foal my grulla stud sired previously either had no facial white at all or minimal facial white, small star maybe, two foals with a snip. I was present when the stud covered the mare.
The following year, that dark dun, no white mare produced a red dun colt with white feet and the fattest white blaze you ever did see. Nice, colt, well built colt, but OMIGOSH he had white markings. It can happen anywhere down the line and is an absolutely assinine reason for refusing to register a horse. I wish every colorphobe would have just one season where every foal they get is loaded with white, they deserve a wake up. It's gonna happen.
I watched in utter awe knowing Flash would be rejected by KMA while the very same year they registered some of the skankiest dun mares on the planet. I prefer solid duns myself but am just blown away when a bad dun is preferred over a great gray.
Apart from those issues, KMA was absolutely the least accomodating registry of any horse registry I have ever been in. Hands down the least. Why should I expect KHAR to be any different if it is formatted virtually the same? Because you are on board regionally? Not good enough. Because they have inspections? Big deal, we make fun of Kiger inspections, they are equivilent to seven blind Hindus examining an elephant.
What do I want from a registry? Not a buncha bling, thats for sure. Don't need all those awards for people in a small registry, because it should be about the horses. Don't need an inspection process in a breed this small when Kigers are already documented by BLM. I'm fine with having DNA requirements, would need to be a little cautious about the setup on that for freezebrands. I'm opposed to having this breed solely defined by color and not the least bit worried that anything is every going to threaten the heavy dose of dun factor within the breed. I'd like to see an end to people bragging about world championships without being honest enough to mention that the show they attended only had 20 horses in it. I'd like to see shows, but considering the reality that there are not a lot of Kigers to be gathered in one spot with the exception of Oregon state itself, I'd be happy with an instruction program that would have guidelines for members to conduct area displays of sorts, until the point in time when the breed is large enough to merit nationwide shows. As to found horses, I wish they didn't exist but they are probably not going to go away. Rather not have them but if we are going to have them they need to be restricted. Need to admit how they got there instead of lying to people and saying they were put in to improve the breed. At this very moment in time it appears to me where registries are concerned that Janice comes the closest to good basics, but I do have some issues with her multiple disclaimers (being the first thing you see on her site) and mustang directory, and the fact that she is just one person. In any of my posts I have never meant to target an individual, but I will say what I expect from all of this and hope that those reading will realize its about a vision for the horses, so sometimes we need to get over ourselves and choke down the criticism, me too. We really do not have that many owners who can help Kigers put their best foot forward in terms of public display, I certainly am not one of them. But this breed needs those who are accomplished horseman, we need to realize it's not a personality contest it is who can do for these horses, and I'll tell you who can and/or did, and that would be the Fourniers, Gin Reske, Melissa Scott, Karen Clark, the Sinks, Stacey Ritter, Jeanne Pepper, Bobby Elliott, Bobby Ingersoll. Most of the rest of us are just novices by comparison and should say so instead of using the internet to make people believe that we (and the horses) are more than they really are. Now go back and look at the names and ask what they want or wanted from this breed or if they are no longer with the breed then ask why. In the case of the Fourniers, I don't think it was the horses that turned them away! "Sally", why don't you ask Matt and Pam about that? So why not look at the talented people who are still in this and listen to their expectations. What they have to say has more weight with me than what Billy wants or what Manford wants, or what Betty wants, including THIS Bettye. And Kara who doesn't even own Kigers is a voice to listen to, also! The people who fully understand the nature of the entire horse industry are the ones who can lead us in the best direction possible, far better than us horse dabblers have done.. "Sally", I'm a "horse dabbler", and I will admit it. But I bet you are too.
I would support in a heartbeat the kind of logic in a registry that comes from people like Kara. In a heartbeat.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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prizmbluekigers
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25#
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 9:30 PM)
Reply to : Kiger-sales
For the Dakota horses and Augusta they would NOT be deregsitered but add Riddle/Pasly just like I have always said .
Ah, SassyLas,
It is not hate and prejudice coming from this board toward the latest registry, it is the fact that you can change the look and name of something and still have the same problems. IMO that is what happened. When inspections are done by the same folks who are in charge of the registry it can create suspicion, so you can forgive some of us for our cynicism or not, but ask yourself what the new registry is going to accomplish. Faster paperwork that means what to the rest of the world? You may not always hear what you want from Rick, but it seems he puts forth a great deal more honesty when asked about "found blood" then some folks do. I'll go so far as to say that I have seen horses that appear to be Kiger and some very nice looking ones at that, who might infuse something good into the breed, but if we are to be considered a legitimate breed worthy of decent prices and world wide recognition then we need to be above reproach, question and innuendo. We cannot do that if the lineage of our horses is clouded, questionable or rumored to be anything other than legitimate. The newest "registry" didn't solve anything, let's hope it makes nothing worse than is already is.ffice ffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Bobbe
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SassyLas
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26#
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Registered:08/05/2006
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 10:20 PM)
Reply to Kiger sales: No, I speak the truth. This was a grulla stallion being represented as a Kiger registered with SMKR. His name was Shady something, or Desert Shade or something like that. He had a white rear sock and was really good looking. The year of adoption may be incorrect, it was 2003 at the adoption where I first saw him being ridden by Fournier. He was not very old at the time I was looking at him. He was a tatooed horse from the wild.
Reply to Bobbe: "It is not hate and prejudice coming from this board toward the latest registry"
There is so much hate and prejudice coming from most of you that post here. If you do not see it, then you need a wake up call. You stated to "just look at the board and it says it all". For sure that statement says it all! I for one would not want anything to do with a reigstry that YOU were connected to with that type of attitude. Or most of you here, calling others names and making fun of them. It is out right MEAN!
If you dont have something nice to say keep it to yourself!
Sally
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OkieKigers
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27#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 11:19 PM)
Reply to : SassyLas
Reply to Kiger sales: No, I speak the truth. This was a grulla stallion being represented as a Kiger registered with SMKR. His name was Shady something, or Desert Shade or something like that. He had a white rear sock and was really good looking. The year of adoption may be incorrect, it was 2003 at the adoption where I first saw him being ridden by Fournier. He was not very old at the time I was looking at him. He was a tatooed horse from the wild.
That's Desert Moonshadow, a tall fella. Originally owned by Warren Bowles, who adopted the mother Desert Eclipse in 1999. The grulla was in her belly at the time. Sally, if that horse is found it's news to me and also to the KMA, who has him registered under Warren's name and as coming from Kiger HMA. He would not have a tatoo, but the grulla stallion Matt had, named Steens Vaquero, was also adopted in 1999 and he had a tat. Perhaps you've confused the two.
Just wonderiang why you are posting under the name "Sally" and using two other monikers and memberships besides your first one. Makes it look as if we have more people posting as members than there really are.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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rlow
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28#
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Rank:none
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Registered:05/28/2006
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 11:19 PM)
Reply to : prizmbluekigers
You may not always hear what you want from Rick, but it seems he puts forth a great deal more honesty when asked about "found blood" then some folks do. We cannot do that if the lineage of our horses is clouded, questionable or rumored to be anything other than legitimate. " />
That is about the funniest thing I've heard on hear in a long time! Rick has never been honest about the found horses. First, he was involved heavily in bringing them into the KMA. Then he has been registered in SMKR but as originating from Riddle or Kiger. There were the paisley horses but also a few Beatty Butte horses, including the one that Sassy thought about. Shade is from Beatty Butte but registered in SMKR as coming from Kiger! HA! What part of this is honest? I remember a year or two ago that someone posted about the horses that Rick and his family adopted. Over 20 were from other HMAs and only 9 were from Kiger/Riddle. Then there is the imfamous letter. It was also in the information. It showed Rick in his own handwritting wanting to be placed on a list for Kiger Type horses. This was dated 1992. By 1992 they were already called Kigers, not Kiger types. I don't remember the exact number, but more than 10 of those other HMA horses that he adopted were adopted after 1992 including the 3 paisley horses. Apparently in the KMA minutes, posted here too, it shows Rick voting for the found horse, numerous times. It also shows Rick bringing up horses that he thought should be voted in as found horses. Heck, I think I've even see where Rick inspected his own horses including Blitz.
So tell me, how is SMKR horses without clouded & questionable lineage?
Rebecca
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OkieKigers
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29#
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Rank:none
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From: USA
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 11:28 PM)
Rebecca, are you kin to Erin?
Yep, SMKR has some Paisley kigers to own up to .I think he's working on that, I hope so. In the end, what a new registry would choose to do with any of the Paisley Kigers or the others would be up to the people holding that registry together. But the rest of your post makes no sense to a thinking person. Rick already owned up to what he was party to back in 1992. He'll be the first to tell you he was part of it, and not proud of it either..
But if Desert Moonshadow is from BB then Warren is the one to talk to, and both SMKR and KMA will need to address it.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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rlow
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30#
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(Date Posted:02/11/2007 11:36 PM)
Reply to : OkieKigers
Rebecca, are you kin to Erin?Yep, SMKR has some Paisley kigers to own up to .I think he's working on that, I hope so. In the end, what a new registry would choose to do with any of the Paisley Kigers or the others would be up to the people holding that registry together. But the rest of your post makes no sense to a thinking person. Rick already owned up to what he was party to back in 1992. He'll be the first to tell you he was part of it, and not proud of it either..But if Desert Moonshadow is from BB then Warren is the one to talk to, and both SMKR and KMA will need to address it.
He didn't say boo about it until it was brought up. I don't think you can call that being honest and upfront.
I don't know a horse called Moonshadow. The horse that I am talking about is Desert Shade. He was for sale on dreamhorse for a while. He came with SMKR papers showing him from Kiger. I think he was down south of Bend for a while. Anyway, I was going to breed my Kiger mare to him, but than had the freezebrand traced. It comes up with Beatty Butte. Now some new people have him. Nice stallion, but they aren't advertising him as a kiger, at least the last I looked.
Don't know an Erin. I think I have a cousin named Eris but we don't associate with that side of the family. Why do you ask?
Rebecca
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