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EquQuest
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1#
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Rank:none
Score:360
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Registered:01/11/2006
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 5:09 AM)
Can someone give a clear explanation of exactly what a "Found" Kiger is? Is it horses brought in from other HMA's in the same area, or from other states? What consitutes foundation blood?
thanks!
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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OkieKigers
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2#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 5:22 AM)
Foundation is a term the KMA uses to mean freeze-branded Kigers right off the HMAs. (If I am wrong, someone please correct me!)
That is not the same thing as "found", which refers to horses that have been registered as Kigers, which do not trace exclusively to Kiger or Riddle HMAs.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Kiger-sales
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3#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 6:31 AM)
In about 89 to 93 there was a shortage of horses from the Kiger and Riddel herd so any dun factor horse kma members could find ended up as a kiger. Some today say it was to make the Authentic kigers better but most of us say to make those member more money. They the kma members would pay $125 for a mustang that was from other places and then put kma /kiger papers to it and sell it for $5000 not bad. they even made buyers in the midwest and east drive to Oregon to pay the $5000 for the fake not like when I brought yours and they were Authentic ones at that. One thing today that shows hope to stop the found mess there are only about 5 or 6 kma people that breed and hide them the rest have stopped or tell 100% the truth about the horse.
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Kiger-sales
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4#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 7:17 AM)
This thread needs this: Years after I left the kma the Vic Pres at that time did and odite of BLM records to KMA. This is the way she described her findings: 1/3 OF ALL ALL KIGERS IN THE KMA ARE FAKE FAKE. At that time there were about 180 so 60 about. Today 249 and growing do you see why some of use are mad and the majority unhappy.That lady was the first to put the word fake on them as well not me.
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EquQuest
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5#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 2:19 PM)
"In about 89 to 93 there was a shortage of horses from the Kiger and Riddel herd so any dun factor horse kma members could find ended up as a kiger."
So, Kigers that were there before 89 are not considered fake?
"they even made buyers in the midwest and east drive to Oregon to pay the $5000 for the fake not like when I brought yours and they were Authentic ones at that."
Rick, I have never doubted you on that issue . . . I was just confused on if anything outside of the original herd was considered fake or those added from other states.
"Foundation is a term the KMA uses to mean freeze-branded Kigers right off the HMAs."
So, Foundation in KMA is any horse, no matter what origin, out of the Kiger/Riddle HMA? Does the SMKR have a foundation status or what would be considered as such? Maybe the horses before 89 that came off the HMA?
thanks for helping to clear things up . . .
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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Kiger-sales
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6#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 6:31 PM)
Bascialy any horse that is on or comes off the Kiger or Riddle we look at as a kiger or was breed there. So what i have seen since 87 is that maybe 10 to 15 were not what we would want but that is alot better than the 249 fake ones kma put in with their standard of [perfecton] . We feel that by taking the blm kigers we tried to elminate what happened to kma and that was the ones in the registry that had the power to make cetificets would go get any dun from any place and put kma kiger papers to it regardless of quality.
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AmericanKigers
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7#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 7:52 PM)
It is my understanding that they apply the Foundation designation to horses right off the HMAs, whether it is Kiger or Riddle. They do have one half/Kiger that is registered as Foundation whose dam originated from Sheepshead. They have given Permanent designation to found or fake horses and they are listed in the same section as the Foundation Kigers. And yet they list half Kigers and the non-breeding Kigers in a different subsection, segregated from the Foundation, Permanent and fake horses. If none of the makes any sense, get in line.
Janice
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AMERICAN KIGER HORSE REGISTRY
THE REGISTRY OF CHOICE!
(503)589.1262
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Kiger-sales
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8#
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(Date Posted:01/25/2006 8:37 PM)
This might tell it all: I was on the registery commity in the begining because of that they would change the brith place of my horse so instead of being worth $300 or so he would be worth $4000 or so. But once out of kma they only go after me for the past 12 years and not help me steel from buyers on fake horses.
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AmericanKigers
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9#
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(Date Posted:01/26/2006 8:33 PM)
I have been considering the consequences of those owners that arbitrarily change the name of a registered Kiger. There is at least one situation in the KMA stud book where a mare's name was changed, but I could find no offspring for her. Her former name appears in the older stud books, but the new stud book reflects her same number, but a new name. There is no mention of the former name or that it has been changed. Jeanie from Kitty Hawk mentioned recently on the message board that she changed Kiger Shadybrooks Hombre to Kiger Hombre. This foundation Kiger has at least 3 offspring. Will all those certificates of registration have to be changed? What other ramifications are there?
I had considered not posing this question on the message board because I was concerned that the "found" horse owners, in some way that has not yet occurred to me, would pick up on this idea and run with it in an attempt to get away from the issue or as some call it, the "sigma." That's all we need is a bunch of owners changing their horse's names and adding to this quickly growing mess. I am also concerned about the validity of those older certificates. Input?
Janice
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AMERICAN KIGER HORSE REGISTRY
THE REGISTRY OF CHOICE!
(503)589.1262
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AmericanKigers
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10#
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(Date Posted:01/26/2006 8:45 PM)
I would like to amend the last post by saying the Hombre has at least 13 offspring which would need to have their certificates changed.
Janice
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AMERICAN KIGER HORSE REGISTRY
THE REGISTRY OF CHOICE!
(503)589.1262
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Kiger Columbia
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11#
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(Date Posted:01/26/2006 10:00 PM)
One of the things that I've ran into with a name change is this............ when we bought Ruger he came with DNA papers and his name on the DNA papers was Northern Idaho Jr.......................well none of us thought anymore about it and we reg him as Ruger's Magnum Kiger........ well several years later he had his 1st foal on the ground and we summited her DNA papers we sent it in as RMK aka NIJ when they sent her DNA papers back it had NIJ on it and it was accompanied with a letter stating the only way they could change the name on the DNA was to have a copy of the name change through the registery.......... we never followed through cause it just wasnt that big of a deal for us..... he is a gelding now and only sired 3 foals. But on ALL of his advertizing since this was brought to our attention, has his name as (Ruger's Magnum Kiger aka Northern Idaho Jr.)
I guess that 'crooks' will take advantage of any oppurtunity............but I figure they have probley already thought of this.......dont you? I wanted to tell this too, because not all 'name-changes' are done to confuse things or hide things............we had NO CLUE what we had done, until a number of years later.........it was all quite innocent. JMExperience. 
(after thought) You are right...........ALL of the offspring and their off spring and theiir off spring , etc will have to be changed........as with the future offsprings offsprings of Ruger---all their cert will have to carry BOTH his names, period...................if they dont "confussion" is sure to follow.
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"Use Common Sense.".......It"s REALLY HARD to do---IF---YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT IT IS OR WHAT IT MEANS......That"s so sad & scarey. 
http://community.webshots.com/user/kigercolumbia
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Kiger-sales
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12#
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(Date Posted:01/26/2006 10:15 PM)
Janice when I wanted Blitz removed from KMA because they changed where he was born I was told no chnages after they are registered> Thought that was funny because he was oringaly put in as a found or Temerary till he proved out. All a once he was made a foundation and his brith place was the kiger herd not the warmspings just as they did to some others. Why do you think KMA would change the brith place of a horse would I think to sell a $125 horse for $5000 some of you kma folks seem to think it was to make better horses if that is so what would changing the brith place on the papers have to do with it . Try and justifiy that .
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Kiger-sales
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13#
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 4:59 AM)
Good example the horse they are talking about on the dream kiger is a fake and they are asking $5000. Ok if the horse was advertised as a 1/2 kiger but a great horse for $5000 then none of us would have anything to say. All though in the past that kind of horse not being a Authentic kiger would bring around $2000 so the words Kiger mean $3000 more that is what is crooked and is going to stop. On thing that is becoming esay to see is that these fakes keep going back to the same breeders so it should be easy to get them under control or better yet exposed.
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Kiger-sales
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14#
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 6:10 AM)
Kelly and Janice your data board is great . That gelding on the kma board can be traced back to Palomino Butte mare and no way in the world can you make a PB horse a kiger. I will send every buyer or inquire to your board that way me or no kma breeder can hide a fake. Good Job
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OkieKigers
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15#
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From: USA
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 8:18 AM)
I removed Christi's post in the "General Discussion" column... since it was, without her awareness, leading into a found horse discussion. I'm gonna try real hard to keep all this in one place, and also, the owner of the horse in the discussion is not a participant at this forum. . But I think it is only fair to note that a couple of comments there did score some points for found horse advocates, since two posters seemed to really like the mentioned horse.
Rick I agree with you on the real reason that found horses were admitted to the KMA in the first place. But in lieu of the KMA board being on "hiatus" , I anticipate a little increase in traffic over here, at least for the time being. So lets mention a couple of things....
First, readers should know that Janice's and Kelly's efforts were NOT instituted by you, which some people tend to think. Rather, their effort is, at least to me, an indicator that you are not the only one who sees the found horses as something that needs to be addressed. But we still have to accept that in the eyes of the KMA organization, found horses are considered to be Kigers. I don't think they are ever going to reverse their decisions after all these years. About all you can do is make it clear what status those horses would or would not have in SMKR, AKHR, CKMR. And it appears that several people are now working towards making that information well-known.
Regarding name changes, all I know is that it varies a lot where other registries are concerned. Most don't permit it, but some do for geldings or horses that haven't yet reproduced, and associations that DO permit it require a HUGE fee in order to amend all the paperwork...and I am talking HUGE here, in the $100's and sometimes the $1000's, depending on the registry!
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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kigers4ever
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16#
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Rank:none
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Posts:975
From: Canada 
Registered:09/04/2002
Time spent: 13893 hours
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 12:27 PM)
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Kiger-sales
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17#
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 7:35 PM)
As for changing names on already regstered horses in the KMA it is done for the same reason they changed birth places to hid the fake horses. That is the way I see it and J&Ks data base shows that too. I guess the main thing that really stands out and KMA people turned their heads is when : BRITH PLACES WERE CHANGED TO CHEAT PEOPLE
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OkieKigers
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18#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 9:27 PM)
Kelly, I had the same temptation, but sometimes its hard to do and keep things impersonal. As irritating as may be to found horse opponents ( to come across ads that you may feel misrepresent the breed) , the fact is, so long as the seller isn't claiming that their horse (with outside blood) is registered elsewhere, or not registered at all, then they have the right to advertise that horse as a Kiger that is registered in the Kiger Mesteno Association.. The KMA has given them that right by registering their horses in the first place. All one can really do is make the public aware that a full one-third of horses in the KMA are not eligible for full status in the other registries. Maybe the difference between a Kiger Mustang and a "Kiger Mesteno" could be specified in our discussions, I don't know.
Hopefully Christi will ask for feedback (on ads that she sees) through emails rather than the MB.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Kiger-sales
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19#
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 10:43 PM)
Betty you are SMOOOOOOOTH but i am not found means fake that is in the dictionary. O that is the kma by laws not Webster sorry
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AmericanKigers
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20#
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(Date Posted:01/27/2006 11:58 PM)
By all means, feel free to make e-mail requests for information regarding the Mustang Directory, Found Horse List, etc. and for specific information regarding a horse or Kiger. We will be happy to share what information we have. That is also true about the current numbers of found, found being bred to found. registered non-kiger being bred to registered non-kiger, which mares had multiple foals in the same year, etc. If I can ask the data base for a specific bype of "sort", different types of information can be obtained. It is not perfect, but darn close. If the information is not available to me, we will let you know.
The more information that ALL of you can provide to us, the more information we can share.
Janice
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AMERICAN KIGER HORSE REGISTRY
THE REGISTRY OF CHOICE!
(503)589.1262
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Kiger Columbia
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21#
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 4:55 AM)
I've been thinking alot about this 'name change' thing......Janice......is it possible to maybe 'color code' these name changes in ya'lls data base, to make it pop out to the eye more? or maybe just have a section for those horses alone???
Also is there a list of these ones that have a name change that I/we can get ahold of?
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"Use Common Sense.".......It"s REALLY HARD to do---IF---YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT IT IS OR WHAT IT MEANS......That"s so sad & scarey.
http://community.webshots.com/user/kigercolumbia
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OkieKigers
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22#
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Rank:none
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 5:15 AM)
Rick, I guess I am just trying to figure a way to live with this because 10 years from now it will probably be the same. It roughly equals out to about 1/5 of all horses registered ANYWHERE as Kigers that actually originated from somewhere else. When you look at it from the point of all registries thinking they are representing the same horse breed, then we just stay at each others throats. But if you have registries that will actually admit they don't have the same goals at all, and therefore aren't really even representing the same breed of horse, then maybe we would just let each other go to our own corners and get on with things. Seems to me the KMA is actually representing a breed (I'll call it "The Mesteno" since that word is in their organization's title), which is a color breed, and that they will continue to do so. Back in the monster thread I tried to point that out to Tim. Now if KMA would just admit to being a color breed, as already evidenced by their inspection process, maybe we could get on with things. They wouldn't need to change a thing, other than to just admit they are a color breed.
The "outsider organizations" here (albeit that there are now several of them!) are starting to use the phrase "The Authentic Kiger Mustang" and it seems to me there is a real distinct difference between their goals and the KMA's.
There are other associations that represent similar-type horses, but their people will quickly point out the differences are enough to constitute considering them as seperate breeds altogether. Now aren't we saying that "our" horses and "their" horses aren't necessarily the same?
Just speculating here, I know we now dip from the same well, but with different goals for each organization, it is very possible that in ten or 15 years or so, not only will color and found horses differentiate us, but it's possible that conformation type might differ between registries also, in fact, I think it imay already have started. We get folks on here that like the primitive type, too, and I have a suspicion that's not where us "outlaws" (I should change the name of this board to "Hole In The Wall' !!!) are going with our horses, I mean, there is that "pretty.head" thing that so many times we've been told we shouldn't be breeding for! It's almost laughable, when you think about it; the accusations that those nice heads came from somewhere else....when what I think CAN happen is (and has already been proven to some extent) refinement can come right there from the two basic herds (KHMA and RHMA) if we just watch our crosses. A few more years of thinking and doing, and there would be no doubt in anyone's mind that bringing in outside blood was never really necessary. Which, if we just considered ourselves to be seperate breeds and found a way to separate ourselves entirely, then that would put an end bothering the KMA . And it shouldn't offend them in any way either, so long as they acknowledge color is their objective, which, lets face it...it IS, and always was.
Okay, I've rambled to the point that I am no longer even making sense to myself. But as I understand it, the word "found" got attached in the first place because they "went out and found 'em". Only, Rick, It's really is okay for a color breed to do that! So they drifted from the original objective....You know there has got to be some real confusion over there when you stop and think about it. If they changed the name of their organization to the Mesteno de Rayas Association and rolled back their rules to where they were in 1994, they would see MUCHO increases in registration and keep on truckin without putting up with your (and my, et al) doggin' em about found horses. Gee, a little old name change would kill this war, only we aren't the ones who could change our names to reflect color instead of origin.
Somebody I know is going to think I am being a smart___ here and I really am not trying to be that way. What I am trying to say is that if we are raising dfferent horses anyway, then there should be a way to differentiate in an obvious manner so we can just let each other go their own way. The other suggestion I have would be for the fringe registries to unite under one name, or at least under a coalition name that specifies their distinctness beyond just using the word "Kiger" . Think up a good one. because, you know that merger thing between KMA and SMKR that belly-flopped a few years back? Just maybe, instead of going to the marriage counselor, we should have just sought out a "divorce" instead! And the funny thing about a divorce is, that when two people really WANT one, they will sometimes make a lot of concessions on both sides just to get it and get it over with.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Kiger Columbia
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23#
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 7:34 AM)
 Bettye, have you been sniffing the Crown Royal bottle caps again?
What a concept................................you could be on to something, here.
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"Use Common Sense.".......It"s REALLY HARD to do---IF---YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT IT IS OR WHAT IT MEANS......That"s so sad & scarey.
http://community.webshots.com/user/kigercolumbia
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Kiger-sales
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24#
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 8:24 AM)
I would do about anything to get away from KMA and the likes of some of that kind of people. We will spend $5000 or $6000 per year to show the buyers and other breeds that kma is a well you call them a color registry as may do I call them a group of people that will do anything to make money on the name Kiger when about 99% of them doing that had nothing to do with the authentic horses and really dont know what they are talking about either . So yes some how get them and me totaly away form each other. I see mare on the kma board for sale for alot of money saying her blood was GREAT I owned her and the blood was a puack [ how do you spell that MS]
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kigeranne
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25#
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Rank:none
Score:466
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Registered:09/04/2002
Time spent: 9740 hours
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 1:54 PM)
P -U -K -E is how the word is spelled and my name is Melissa Scott. Please don't anyone accuse me of calling the horse mentioned in RL's previous message a PUKE, because I do not even know about the horse mentioned and I would never publically humiliate any horse or owner on a public forum.
Melissa Scott
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"My treasures do not clink together or glitter, they gleam in the sun and neigh in the night."
.....//\\.....
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Kiger-sales
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26#
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Posts:870
Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 6:05 PM)
Just trying to help expose false addveting and no you did not say the horse was that word but I owned the horse and that is what I think of it.
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kigeranne
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27#
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Rank:none
Score:466
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(Date Posted:01/28/2006 6:47 PM)
I guess we are all entitled to our own opinions. The specifications one breeder/owner establishes for his or her training/breeding program may not be designed for the specifications, attributes or talents of a particular horse, but this same horse may fit perfectly into the standards another breeder/owner has chosen for his or her program.
Simple man's term~ "Your or someone else's P.U.K.E just might be mine or someone else's treasure."
Melissa
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"My treasures do not clink together or glitter, they gleam in the sun and neigh in the night."
.....//\\.....
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denise k
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28#
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Registered:07/21/2003
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(Date Posted:01/29/2006 12:08 AM)
I think Bettye's idea of a "divorce" between KMA and SKMR would be just the thing. However, you would have to get rid of the Number One Pot Stirrer.
KMA, go your own way and work things out with your own people, regardless of the "help" being offered by outsiders.
Rick, you take your worn out mantra of "Fake Kigers will never be real Kigers", stuff it, cap it, dig a hole and bury it. I, for one, have had it up beyond my teeth with your accusations of people out to make a fast buck on the Kigers. KMA members didn't go out looking for Kiger look-a-likes, the BLM did. The KMA just registered what was found by someone else. You can't account for anyone's practices but your own, and at best those are questionable.
And just for anyone who is interested - Suzanne has no intentions of getting rid of her horses. They will spend their lifetime with her. Now she is what I would call a lady dedicated to her horses regardless of anyone else's opinion. She knew what she wanted and guess what - she got them from me!
I am truly happy with my horses. There isn't anything anyone can say that will change my mind. So there!
Bettye, I have to give you credit for doing such a good job of keeping things in line on this board considering what you have to work with. As for me - I'm through reading this board. I don't need any more gray hairs. Have at it folks - it's all yours!
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My ride"s a Kiger Mustang!
What"s yours?
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OkieKigers
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29#
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Rank:none
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From: USA
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Time spent: 15184 hours
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(Date Posted:01/29/2006 3:13 AM)
"KMA members didn't go out looking for Kiger look-a-likes"
Oohhh, yes, they did.
Regardless, Denise, I understand Rick's inability to let the subject drop...and I also understand your affinity towards your own horses.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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denise k
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30#
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(Date Posted:01/29/2006 3:32 AM)
Ok Bettye,
My morbid curiosity got the better of me for just a moment so was just checking to see if anyone would answer my post. In any case I really am curious. How would KMA members, other than Rick, have access to the different herds and know what was on each one, thereby being able to collect Kiger look--a-likes. An explanation please either here (I will watch for another day or so) or privately. Thank you.
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My ride"s a Kiger Mustang!
What"s yours?
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