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is_aimoo_guest
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1# |
From:
Registered:
11/07/2007
Time spent:
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/12/2007 4:27 PM)
yes!!!! hope it happens, and soon.
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OkieKigers
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2# |
Rank:none
Score:3453
Posts:1913
From: USA
Registered:
09/03/2002
Time spent:
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/16/2007 3:47 PM)
I sure would welcome the idea. I'd frankly hope it would be a KIGER registry and not a "dun-mustang" registry and also be user-friendly.
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kigers4ever
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3# |
Rank:none
Score:1367
Posts:975
From: Canada
Registered:
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/23/2007 3:38 PM)
I think that the idea of a 4 in 1 is a great goal, but realistically, I cannot see it happening. In my opinion there have been far too many arguements, walls and hard feelings that have been created over the last 20+ years. We have seen what happens when a registry is operated by a committee. Although we have a person for each department, it can often lead to everyone trying to impliment their own agenda. We have also seen the advantages of a "sole propriatorship" registry. With the absence of inner termoil, it is focused on the thoughts and ideals of the members and thier needs. Unfortunately, speaking soley as the CKMR, I would not want a 4 in 1 if it meant loosing my individuality or implimenting catagories such as color distinction, hardship catagories that would allow PB or found horses to be represented as purebreds or inspections of any kind as that method is subject to the personal opinions and feelings of those select few that are actually doing the inspecting. Without appropriate documentation from each inspector outlining their qualifications to hold such a position, it would be nothing more than an exercise in futility. I am proud to be Canadian and to represent the Canadian Kiger Mustang Registry. Although it is true that we are small and our members do not compare to the numbers of the US registries, I actually prefer being small for now, as it allows me to treat each and every member on a personal basis. I can afford to cater to the individual needs of my members and gear the CKMR to accomodate their needs and opinions. Perhaps, in the future if the right opportunity were to present it'self, the CKMR may address this issue again, but until that time, we choose to remain as we are, the Canadian representation of the Kiger breed. Thank you,
Kelly Gibson
The Canadian Kiger Mustang Registry
http://www.canadiankiger.com/ 
(Message edited by kigers4ever on 12/25/2007 10:03 PM)
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OkieKigers
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4# |
Rank:none
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From: USA
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/23/2007 10:09 PM)
All I know is that what we have now doesn't work. It doesn't alarm me necessarily that there are several registries, this isn't the only breed that has more than one registry. But it is a bit of a joke for us to have so many when the number of registered horses ain't "all that". I mean, I think the QH's are represented by four or five organizations, but then they only have two that are really visible, and one of them has registered over a million horses to date. One has to wonder why we have five Kiger registries when not one of those registries has even hit the 1000 mark yet. It's nuts, and it has suceeded in decreasing the value of all certifcates, regardless of where they come from.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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kigers4ever
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5# |
Rank:none
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Posts:975
From: Canada
Registered:
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/24/2007 1:16 AM)
Bettye:
I can appreciate your point of view, so..... with that in mind, what do you suggest we do to solve all the problems so all the registries would come together as one?
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tiffany1fantasy
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6# |
Rank:none
Score:785
Posts:561
From: USA
Registered:
09/05/2002
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/24/2007 12:09 PM)
In my humble opinion we can go no further until a decision is made on what is a Kiger? there was a time that any Mustang from the Kiger or Riddle HMA was considered a pure Kiger Mustang no ifs ands or buts anything else was false. Some said by the way it also has to be dun, others said not so, that began the sterotype that the Kiger is just a colored Mustang. Owners of the Kigers know better and struggle to prove to the world it is not about color. After the recent adoption and a few registries refusal to register those horses clearly from the Kiger and Riddle HMAs, clearly you can not hold to the rule any horse from the Kiger and Riddle HMA is a Kiger Mustang forever. Because of mans intrevention, not being trusted or satisfactory to the registries, these horses did not qualify in their eyes. I can completely understand, at the same time, I feel for the folks who went in so excited for their first ownership of a wild Kiger Mustang, only later to find out their young horses would be shunned. Whether or not registries join forces is completely up to them and we as owners are at their mercy. "You can not please all of the people all of the time. You can only hope to please some of the people some of the time"
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website: aldrichfarm.com
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OkieKigers
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7# |
Rank:none
Score:3453
Posts:1913
From: USA
Registered:
09/03/2002
Time spent:
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Reply To kigers4ever
(Date Posted:12/24/2007 3:04 PM)
Bettye:
I can appreciate your point of view, so..... with that in mind, what do you suggest we do to solve all the problems so all the registries would come together as one? |
There's sure no easy answer, Kelly, I haven't got a clue how you get people to set aside their egos. But don't you think it's time for representatives of each registry to at least TRY to park their animosity for a bit and consider negotiations? I can only express my own POV, which isn't going to match up to everyone elses. But from what I could tell of the wild horses available in November, assuming that the BLM is going to continue to strive for quality by retaining the best for the feral herds as they claimed, well, gee, I can no longer assume that they are really going to do that! Sorry, but I was really let down when the catalogue came out. The 2007 roundup seemed overall to be just a color-batch, not a gathering of horses consistent in type. Furthermore, we have very few people breeding for type consistency. Most have bred expressly for color advantage that came with the Kiger fad. Granted, most of the older breed descriptions have some gaps to be filled, but hopefully most of us will agree on some of the (older) Kigers as having been the "thing to strive for". (SK, Sundance, Mt. Shasta, Desperado, etc....whether or not you liked those particular horses as individuals, I think most folks will agree they all had/have the Kiger "look"...but what percentage of our registered horses veer away from that look? A bunch of them!) I'm all for dun coloration but my personal feeling is that a Kiger should be recognizable, not just as a dun mustang, but more important as a sound and attractive horse. And that the type should be consistent from horse to horse within the breed and regardless of what body color it is or how tall it is. We are miles away from reaching any goal like that. Instead, early Kiger developers snowballed the breed to a point where "Kiger" only really means a dun with a lot of mane hair. Phooey on that. I've seen people post on the net that there is room for a variety of conformation types in this breed. I'm afraid that's something that I do NOT agree with. Varied height, sure, I'd go for 16 hand Kigers, but not if the height is achieved through flat narrow cannons...etc. hope you understand what I am saying. It's not hard to find an original type description, doesn't matter if it's the BLM's, KMA's, or SMKR's. The original Kiger ideal...it described horses that should be compact, with low tailsets, round hips though not terribly muscular ones, they should have hooked ears, short round cannons, good hard mule feet, large eyes, and clean heads. They should be intelligent and tractable. Unfortunately, too many Kigers are long-backed, ewe necked, small hipped, or beligerent minded. Poor traits that we always knew were there, but after 20 years we SHOULD be seeing them diminish in this breed. But they are still prevelant. which means we are All very poor at horse husbandry, BLM included. For example, how many of us would be willing to roach our Kigers manes and expose a faulty neck underneath....that mane hair can hide a big sin. For those who are embarrassed by the Forbes article (see under General Discussion) I hope they will understand that Rick is not the only person (who has been about these horses for years) who has become disallusioned. For 20 years, novice (the majority, but not all ARE novices) horse people have peddled Kigers as "pure-spanish' or by capitalizing on their rarity (not so rare anymore), or claiming dun factor is some kind of magic bullet, or by promoting the romanticism of owning a chunk of the old West. And while we truly have had a few people who have busted their butt to show the public the actual traits and potential of the best of this breed, they have been overshadowed by many amatuer lovers who sing the praises of weak-hipped or ewe-necked pasture ornaments. Yeah, I know this post won't win me any popularity. But then, I am also disallusioned. That's not to say that long time promoters didn't have genuine enthusiasm in the beginning. They most certain DID. But 20 years down the road not all that much has been accomplished, and it's disheartening. Let it be said I'll make allowances for the early years of experimenting with a limited gene-pool (  he, he...I am forced to, since I have had both successes and failures as well, every breeder DID, whether they admit it or not, after all, we did not have five-generation pedigrees to spin off of) Honestly, our enthusism for thhis breed exceeded our common sense. But after 20 years of Kigerdom, maybe its time for the future Kiger breeders and promoters to figure out which bloodlines are worth investing in (from a conformation standpoint) and which ones aren't. I mean, do we all have to be hit over the head after Myrtle produces the third faulty baby?  I'm the first to say I used to believe that a registry should be available for all Kigers regardless of quality. But maybe I am changing my mind on that one, because I see where it has taken us, or maybe I should say where it has failed to take us...since neither BLM management nor show-ring judgments have done anything to move us towards a higher percentage of quality animals. That's not to say I think that novice people inspecting horses for dun factor sets those particular horses at a higher level, either. I do not. So what yardstick should be used? I dunno, but I'd sure like to know what Weiscamp or Varian or McKay would think of our husbandry practices. Given the following data: that the BLM isn't making any special attempts to assure quality in conformation; that we have a buncha registries with not one any better than the other, that we already have found blood circulating that is clearly not going to magicly disappear, and that thanks to some registry criteria, many private breeders have hoopla-ed about color but forgotten about type, I would sure hope that Kiger owners, at least the ones who enjoy serving in some organizational capacity, would realize that the breed will be nothing in future years if we continue down the current path. I was told once that the Appy folks had a HUGE split of opinion when QH blood was added. Some feel that the QH blood poluted the original Appy, while others feel that the breed would have totally collapsed without it. It certainly is a fact that registration and visibility increased when they did infuse QH blood. Now, please, I am not saying we need QH blood for the Kigers to flourish. But I DO certainly feel that focus on conformation is a necessity at this point. If that means putting down the found horse gauntlet, so be it. I'm winding down on my own participation with Kigers (due to age and also due to "been-there, done-that"!) , But if you'd ask me what I would like to see happen for these horses in the future, it would be that sensible and knowledgable horsemen get together with a plan that will take the Kiger away from mustang status, because that connection is not going to continue to be an advantage over the long haul. Not that I don't admire mustangs, the fact is, Carter and I have four Nevada mustangs on our property at the moment, and it burdens me to admit it, but all four are better conformed horses than three of the Kigers that we own. And we have what I consider to be a typical Kiger accumulation, judging by the other Kiger breeders websites. Now, that alone tells me something about the status of Kigers. Its just that I don't think the Kiger, if it is going to flourish as a breed, has much future if conformation type and good dispositions don't become the prime objectives, and it does not appear to be a prime objective for the BLM anymoree. So, how to get there? You tell me, but setting aside the past (with the exception of the original type description) and asking for REAL professional advice sure couldn't hurt! The year 2008 marks 20 years of playing around with color phenotypes without really knowing for sure what recessive genetic material was possessed by each breeding animal. Maybe the next 20 years should be handled a little differently if the horses are to succeed as a breed. If somebody wants to continue to have a registry for all adopted Kigers, or one that's for dun horses, that's fine, but what we really need is a registry that focuses first on type, and realizes that unless we do focus on type, things will never be any different than they are now. What's the expression? Repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results. It ain't working out.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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lcforward
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8# |
Rank:none
Score:99
Posts:67
From:
Registered:
06/29/2007
Time spent:
3290 hours
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/24/2007 6:54 PM)
Given the following data: that the BLM isn't making any special attempts to assure quality in conformation; that we have a buncha registries with not one any better than the other, that we already have found blood circulating that is clearly not going to magicly disappear, and that thanks to some registry criteria, many private breeders have hoopla-ed about color but forgotten about type, I would sure hope that Kiger owners, at least the ones who enjoy serving in some organizational capacity, would realize that the breed will be nothing in future years if we continue down the current path. Bettye, I think you have summed the situation up very well. It does, indeed, seem like no one can define what the horse we call Kiger really is. It's becoming clearer to me that what I THOUGHT was Kiger, by way of promotion - history, genetics, old Spanish type, color, in fact, probably does not exist because it's almost impossible to find it all in one package. It's almost like saying, "I want a horse like the Kiger used to be." or like we thought it was. It's hard to blame the BLM for what it culls and what it releases, relocates, or adds. How can they know what to look for if "we" don't? (Unless they just won't listen, but I don't see that as the problem.) And a question, does the BLM gather good representatives of the breed for adoption or culls from the herds? Why couldn't Kiger people go out with the BLM people before the next gather and point of the good ones that need to stay in the herds breeding? There would give 2-3 years for the Kiger people to make up their minds. This is a very interesting and important topic. I am glad to see it discussed opening, flaws and all. It is sad to note that in 20 years a unique group of horses has been so manipulated that they are no longer what they were originally prized for. Linda
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kigers4ever
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9# |
Rank:none
Score:1367
Posts:975
From: Canada
Registered:
09/04/2002
Time spent:
4200 hours
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/25/2007 7:32 PM)
"It is sad to note that in 20 years a unique group of horses has been so manipulated that they are no longer what they were originally prized for."
Linda:
I must commend you on that statement. Infact, that is one of the very reasons that the CKMR has chosen to enstate a deadline for eligibility of the Kiger breed. Until we get rid of the "decisions" made that resulted in this years wild "culls" we are only continueing to head down the same road and repeat the same mistakes. The CKMR is aiming toward reestablishing the original foundation type so that we can continue to base our objectives towards the future of this breed. I do not see it as the perfect be all end all solution, but it sure is a great way to begin the healing of this breed. As for bringing in another breed to "improve" the Kiger, I cannot see it happening for the CKMR. Yes, we do recognize partial blood Kigers (void of found blood) but if the pure Kiger is to move forward, I feel we must take a step back to the original type and start again. JMHO,
Kelly
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lcforward
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10# |
Rank:none
Score:99
Posts:67
From:
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/25/2007 9:00 PM)
if the pure Kiger is to move forward, I feel we must take a step back to the original type and start again. Kelly, I really hope that this can be accomplished. Linda
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kigers4ever
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11# |
Rank:none
Score:1367
Posts:975
From: Canada
Registered:
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Time spent:
4200 hours
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/25/2007 9:41 PM)
Linda:
I too hope that my thoughts and approach will work. I do know that using the "culls" from the 2007 adoption is out of the question. I have found from personal experience that long backs are next to impossible to completely breed out of a line. "U" necks, sickle hocks, goose rumps and wasp waisted traits are also extremely difficult to rid your lines of. After closely studying the "culls" that the new BLM representatives presented as Kigers, I feel there is no choice but to go back and use the positive traits of this breed that are still available. With the help of some of the top geneticists at Guelph University's Equine Research Deptartment and the collective years of knowledge and experience of local breeding specialists, I hope to be able to tap into a vast pool of knowledge. I am not saying that I have all the answers, it's quit to the contrary, but I do know that we cannot allow the conformational issues of the 2007 adoption to continue to influence our genetic lines. I know that this statement is not going to put me in the top 10, but I feel strongly enough about this issue that it leaves me no recourse but to make this decision.
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DianneC
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12# |
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Score:1249
Posts:869
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RE:4/1
(Date Posted:12/26/2007 11:24 AM)
Bettye, I agree. The only horses that will survive the current market are those with great mind, conformation and movement. If we can't breed consistently great horses the breed will go the way of the dodo bird, registered or not. And that's the way it should be. The most urgent reason for the registries to unite is to influence the BLM on which horses get returned to the HMAs. Ron Harding has agreed to be present at the next gather and make that selection. <big grin> I believe the BLM has previously agreed to this in principal. What is needed is for the registries to unite and tell the BLM "this is our man". I can't think of a better reason for them to lay down their swords and pick up the plow.
(Message edited by DianneC on 12/26/2007 11:35 AM)
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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