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Kiger-sales
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61# |
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(Date Posted:02/01/2006 8:40 AM)
Linda if the breed is to go at the rate of 1/3 fake horses for ever it would be better off down the drain. At least dun mustangs would not would be used to steel money for something they are not. As for me hurting the breed we have sold more horses since this fght started. One thing here is that the buyers are getting smarter about who are the main sellers of fake horses and what were hearing is that they are thankfull to knwo who they are. And you can bet the buyers are finding out very fast. You might ask some of them how many horses they have sold lately fake or real. So dont use I am hurting the breed what do you think of 250 fake horses out the just waiting to hose the buyers.
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Horse Stuff
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62# |
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(Date Posted:02/01/2006 6:35 PM)
Linda, I don't think I would be welcome by the KMA "management". But more importantly, and I said it many times on the KMA message board thread, I think it is important for the KMA problems to be settled from within the KMA. On the found horse thread I tried to remind people that I was not a member, and I also tried to facilitate discussion, and I think people were aware of that. But my main purpose was to promote thought and discussion. If I were to address the KMA at a meeting, it would feel more like a speech, and although I am able, I am not comfortable with that. I am quiet adament that that is a role for KMA members.
I feel quite certain that it has been stated over and over in private discussions, and in public comments, that if Rick would shut up this would all go away. Even if all of us who agree with Ricks take on the found horse issue were to shut up, it still would not go away. The reason is very simple. Because it is an issue outside of Kiger circles as well. It is a popular discussion amongst the wild horse bunch, and in other circles as well. It brings great joy to many of these people to make fun of the Kigers because "a lot of them were gathered all over the place!" Their feelings being that the Kigers are a fraud and are nothing more than a bunch of dun mustangs. And how many people have said they read the discussions on the boards and as a result would no longer consider a Kiger. I would think the reason is not because of the outspokeness of the individuals we have here, but because of the issue itself. I mean if you were offered your choice of 3 Mercedes, all at a 10% discount off the MB sticker price, but then told that one of them was made by HUGO and had a wind up motor, would you stick around? I have heard the outside discussions. I know they go on, and what is said. In most cases it is very derisive. And most often when these comments came up, Rick was not in the state. The subject is an issue far more than just within the Kiger circles and must be addressed, and I intend to support that endeavor.
Linda, I and I'm sure others do appreciate your support on the issue. But we do have some differing opinions. I know it is difficult to consider all aspects of it. I have been reading nearly everything I can on the subject for over two years. So let me give you something to consider:
Even before it was given a name, most of the rules of genetics had been worked out ( in the 1800's or so) by Gregor Mendel, and a tremendous amount of work on linebreeding and inbreeding was done by Lloyd Brackett in the early half of the 1900's, which laid out the use of outcrosses to introduce outside genetics. His work was well understood in the early 70;s. If you read just a small portion of the work of these two it's easy to see that the introduction of additional genetics is usually done with just a few specimans, and generally they are not the main breeding line. This information was all available in the late 70's and early 80's and was known to apply to horses as well as to other species. It is basic genetics information. I studied it in the mid 70's. If those who were suggesting the Kiger breed needed additional genetic diversity had studied basic genetics and breeding, which should have included the work of these two men, they would have known that the inclusion of additional stock equal to 1/2 of what was already available, and the breeding of the introduced stock (found horse to found horse) as compared to using those horses for out crosses to introduce additional genetics was diluting the genetics of the horses made available by the BLM, not increasing it. Those that say they wanted to increase genetic diversity sure were not doing that in an informed way, but some were sure breeding and selling a lot of horses that looked like Kigers. ...Tom
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Have a wild ride, or a ride from the wild!
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Kiger-sales
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63# |
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(Date Posted:02/01/2006 8:35 PM)
Tom great point on the thougths of other breeds. This happend at the Portland at the same show that LH was at.
A lady came up to a stall and looked at I think Dancer. She asked are you Rick Littleton I said yes because kma wasnt after me at that time. Her words were and I remember very well [you kiger people are truely crooks]. I was nice and ask why. You go to Burns pay $125 for a horse. Then not knowing anyting about its blood line or even about it and showing it out of control then turn around and as $4000 or more for it. That is sellling a pice of paper not a horse and that makes you people crooks. She was a breeder of Morgans or Saddle breds not sure on that. I have herd that from many more. When BI was atacked that same way in the QH world he would say these kigers are from a speical group of horses not lilke normal shiters. So kma you just go get all the duns you want so the horse public can get a bigger laugh but there many owners that want away from what you KMA have done and more each day.
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AmericanKigers
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64# |
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(Date Posted:02/01/2006 11:33 PM)
Okay Rick, how do we find a resolution to all this? It is my understanding that there are a few breeders breeding found to found and in one case, half-brother found to half-sister found (same found grandsire).
There seems to be no further registering of foundation mustangs from non-Kiger HMAs in the last year. Although I cannot even verify that comment as I am not privy to any registrations subsequent to June, 2005. We cannot dictate breeding practices. Apparently we cannot wipe the records clean of any and all "found" blood. Somehow it doesn't seem right that we discontinue registering anything except purebreds. And yet that may be the only option. The more I view the internet, the more "found" blood I find. If someone has a solution, please share it with all of us.
Janice
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AMERICAN KIGER HORSE REGISTRY
THE REGISTRY OF CHOICE!
(503)589.1262
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Kiger-sales
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65# |
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(Date Posted:02/02/2006 12:40 AM)
As of right know I don't see any way to stop them except with the value dropping. In the last 2 months 2 kma folks have said on the board that KMA can make anything they want a kiger. So with that attituded it is just BUYER BEWARE so go get them kmaers for all you can get to heck with the Authentic kiger we can take care of them. Janice It won't belong at the rate they are going fake will over come reall anyway.
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OkieKigers
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66# |
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(Date Posted:02/02/2006 12:57 AM)
Janice, here's one option:
Put the existing found horses into a SEPARATE studbook, for starters. Give some sort of gelding incentive, even if it is reduced rate or free registration with submission of a vet report that the horse has been gelded. Let those geldings be called whatever you chose, even call 'em honorary Kigers so long as they are not reproducing. Spayed mares, too. In other words, reward those people who "stop the buck."
Implement a REAL proving ground to move reproductive found horses into the Kiger studbook, not one just based on the color of their babies. Just because an old mare can throw a stripe doesn't mean squat. Call it a Register of Merit or whatever, make them earn points based on their true assets before registering ANY of them or their offspring as Kigers. Say 35 points and it can go into the Kiger book. Points based on show wins, speed index (haha, gotcha, just joking there) endurance miles, etc. A great horse could earn 35 points after just two or three shows or events or logging a specific number of miles, while it would take a lesser horse a little longer and be necessary to haul it to more events. But it would sure indicate that the owner actually has that much faith in the horse. Any horse that cannot do well at something doesn't have anything valuable genetically to offer, and never did. Now, you might have a different idea, but the main thing is to make found horses earn their name as "Kigers" through some sort of procedure. The good ones would come through the fire, the others wouldn't. Whatever plan you come up with, don't make it too easy, certainly don't make it based on color, how hard is that? We all know the KMA isn't going to demand anything from the founds, but AKHR could. However, I bet that out of 200 found blood horses, you won't have 20 of them that will be promoted by their owners in order to increase their status with you: 1) because so few people really want to do something more than feed old Bessie and sell her babies. And 2) there is always the KMA to fall back on. But offer it as a challenge and who knows, maybe someone will be inspired to show what their found horse can accomplish.
Second option:
Hall of Fame Catagory for true Kigers only, no found horses need apply. Give the real thing a Gold Star.
Third Option:
Stand your ground. Register only horses whose pedigrees are exclusively Kiger/Riddle. Of course, if you pick this option there will be no question that you'll be retaining the character that Warburton, Harding, et al, valued in the first place.
With this option, you can, but don't necessarily have to have, some sort of hardship catagory for horses who are obviously Kigers but whose owners lack supporting documentation (lost title, no stud report, etc.).
Fourth Option:
Open up your registry for all dun mustangs. (If you can't lick 'em, join 'em.) You'll have some happy dun horse owners down in New Mexico who never could figure out why a Blue Wings Nevada mustang could be called a Kiger but a dun mustang born in New Mexico couldn't be. If you pick this option, don't worry...you won't be muddying the waters any. A lot of the rest of the horse world thinks that "dun mustang" is all that Kigers are anyway. Those of us who own them know better, but, what the hey, with KMA retaining an average of 33% found blood stock, and having that percentage maintained over a period of more than a decade, well, that is the direction the Kigers are going anyway.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Lochlain
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67# |
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(Date Posted:02/02/2006 6:02 AM)
Hello the board. I've been reading the boards give or take since last September, and have been following the Found issue pretty closely since that giant thread about it popped it.
Previously, I hadn't really given the issue much thought(Though I surmise this is one of the biggest problems with the whole dealy), until while researching my colts lineage, I found he had three found horses(One from Sheepshead, one from Palomino Butte, and another from Paisley) in his family line. Now I had bought him unaware of the found blood, muchless the found issue itself.
Do I feel wronged? Not in the slightest, though I could see other people getting hung up over pedigree. Do I think he's less of a horse? Nope, seeing as how the Kigers he does have in his line are outstanding horses. Do I think it's an issue worth all this drama? Well, yes, actually.
Now, I hadn't really ever planned on posting, given as how I've seen the odd few horse snobs, and the occasional boor(I don't really think I have to name names), but I did have to comment in regards to OkieKigers' comment in regards to having a seperate studbook, which I feel is vital in solving the entire issue, so long as the KMA was actually open about it(Such as having a section about it on the main website.) and there was actually something done about the people deliberately going out of their way to sell fakes.
And note again, I don't consider this to be the entirety of the KMA or any specific persons I know about(Mostly due to the fact I'm a heck of a long ways away from Oregon.), and I imagine there are people out there not even related to either registries slapping the name Kiger on their mustangs(Or even duns in general) to make a quick buck. Another note being that I don't feel in anyway whatsoever lead on by the people I bought my colt from.
But another thing I have to comment on, and I'm aware that Rick has support in regards to this issue. But as much as you crusade on about the subject, you do make personal attacks, and have the habit of mixing it in with the bigger picture, which I feel is a bit unfair. It is a worthy issue, but slander and personal bias should be set aside given as how this is an issue greatly effecting the breed. As well as that, as another person commented... It's really hard to understand your sentences at times.
As well as that, I do somewhat find it somewhat ironic, if not arbitrary, that Steens Kiger(Unless I'm making an ignorant call and mixing you with some other owner of said stallion) was bred to a found mare(Kiger Bell,Sheepshead), thus furthering the found issue.
Though, I'm hoping those last two paragraphs aren't seen as trolling comments. Just observer notes.
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