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JF
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/14/2008 4:41 PM)
Sorry, Not the foal section, the for sale section. 
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DianneC
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/15/2008 11:58 PM)
This is what I know. I'm sure someone will add more or subtract what isn't correct. When the original horses were gathered there were a couple of "claybank" horses in the horses put on the Kiger and Riddle HMAs. They were called the pumpkin horses because they turned orange-ish in winter. To me that sounds like they were really light red duns, apricot duns as they are sometimes called. But now it means a horse that is dun plus grey. Ron Harding said that he thought they added a horse that they thought was light grulla when it was actually turning grey.
The problem until very recently has been that these grey plus dun horses are born very light with lots of dark stripes, dark mane and tail. Really pretty and unique in the horse world. They stay that way until they grey out, starting slowly at the tip of the tail. Most grey horses are born dark then grey. In other breeds with dun the grey + dun horses are born dun looking and then grey out. I don't understand why Kigers are different. But it caused a lot of confusion on what they were. It wasn't until some of the claybanks greyed out that it was figured out that it was the grey gene plus dun. To make it even more confusing there are very light grulla foals that are born looking much the same, almost white with a pinkish or silvery cast to them. They grow up to be light grulla. The only way to know they aren't grey when they are born is to look at the parents. If one is grey the foal is likely grey + dun. If neither are grey it is likely light grulla.
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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JF
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/16/2008 11:45 PM)
To Kelly and DianneC,
Mesdames, merci!
François
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OkieKigers
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/17/2008 11:40 AM)
Ron Harding himself is the person who first used the word claybank to described a pale horse with dark dun markings. It stuck.
No question our claybanks are not the same color as quarterhorse claybanks, which are more of a pale red dun. All I can say, is use the word claybank however you are comfortable using it. Yep, there are gray Kigers, call them gray or call them claybanks, it really isn't that important. But keep in mind that there are also some really light colored Kigers that look the same from a distance that are not gray. I don't know if the creme gene is present in the Kiger breed or not, I guess that remains in the hands of whoever might have one and takes the initiative for the testing. I don't have any with the creme gene, but I do suspect that they exist.
The worst thing that ever happened to Kiger mustangs is that they became defined almost exclusively by their color.
Color is a matter of owner personal preference and not what makes the character or talents of the horse.
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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Horse Stuff
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/17/2008 5:59 PM)
Thanks for the clarification of claybank info by both Dianne and Bettye. It seems that at the last adoption red duns were lacking. Any comments or insight on that? Now, about the claybanks, I had understood them to be the pale red duns as we see in the QH's. The above info clarifies a lot of questions I had with that and the grey issue. As with the red duns, are we seeing fewer claybanks of that persuasion? ...T
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Have a wild ride, or a ride from the wild!
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OkieKigers
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/17/2008 9:49 PM)
I wasn't there but I have heard that the first horse Ron referred to as a "claybank" was Mestana, back in 1989. When you see her adoption photo from that year she appears to have very light body color and yet with dark points, including barring and eel stripe. I've seen her BLM papers and "claybank" is what is on them. So I am okay with it if someone wants to refer to her (or her descendants, one of which is in my backyard) that way, why not, since that is what is on her BLM papers, and it was the BLM that applied the term?
But, as far as accurracy goes, well, conversely the gray Kiger we adopted in 2003 was listed as a buckskin by the BLM (We knew differently). Frankly I don't think BLM employees spend their spare time trying to learn about correct nomenclature for horse color, nor do I expect them to! Nor do I know of any Kiger "inspectors" that have any more credentials about horse color than the rest of us do.
We've had a lot of color conversations on this board in the past and I used to enjoy them a bunch...but not so much anymore. I just recently in fact saw another email from some dummy who said a particular horse couldn't be a Kiger because it wasn't a dun. What BS, and I guess you can tell I don't have much respect for that train of thought. That's how the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater sometimes, at least, in my book. Anyway, it's nice when you can get a bead on what to call a horse's color, but no great thing to me if somebody uses a different word (to describe a color) than I do. The horse is whatever color his owner calls him, even if I don't agree! (grin) And I've learned that policy is best in any horse circle....if that cowboy has a snowflake App that he thinks is a red roan, then it's a red roan, if yaknowwhadimean. I've got a buddy who rides a red dun, but he calls it a sorrel, why argue. Also, I own a half-shetland that is actually a silver dapple bay, but everyone who sees him calls HIM a sorrel. I don't correct them because I still know which horse they are talking about. We've also got two buckskins (not Kigers) that you can't tell apart from my gray mare in the wintertime unless you have them within five feet of you.
Hehe, now If it's my horse in question I probably will run myself nuts trying to decide what true color it is, but if it's somebody else's horse, they can and will call it whatever they like and that's okay. It's their horse.
Back in 1948 Robert Denhart wrote an article for the Texas Horseman that was later picked up and used by the AQHA. By today's guidelines it is as inaccurate as hell. That's sure not to say Denhardt didn't know horses, but it should soften any die-hards who think the approach to color is finite and can only be seen one way by everbody, and with adjectives that never change. Tain't so.
Tom, I too noticed the absence of red duns (pale red body, points also pale red, with a darker red dorsal stripe)in the 2007 gathering. Haven't got a clue as to why. But I kinda doubt they've been eradicated (yet anyway). What little I do know about color genetics tells me otherwise.
(Message edited by OkieKigers on 04/18/2008 12:23 AM)
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
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DianneC
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/18/2008 9:42 PM)
There was one, but she had been injured. I didn't see her in the internet adoption either. There were a lot of browns that looked like they had the pangere gene. A light golden muzzle and a brown coat. I don't remember that many from before.
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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DianneC
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/18/2008 9:47 PM)
Say Bettye, over on the dungenes board they were talking about grey and dun. Most duns that grey in the regular horse world are regular dun then grey. Just as most greys are born their "natural" color then the grey gene kicks in until they are white. Now why would Kigers be different? Makes me scratch my head.
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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Spanish Sage Ranch
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/19/2008 6:56 AM)
Francois et al
Regarding the small number of red duns and even smaller to non-existant number of chestnut/sorrel horses brought in for the adoption, the reason is simple (or complex, depending on your point of view) statistics. A red dun is a sorrel with the dun gene.
Dun gene is dominant, the E gene, which creates a black horse, is also dominant. The only way you can have a red horse is if you have an ee.
Assuming the scenario where all the Kigers are Ee (which is unlikely) you would still only have one in four, or 25% of them being red. Also assuming that all the Kigers are Dd (which is unlikely) out of those 25%, only one out of four of them would be without the dun gene.
So, even given the best of conditions in creating a red dun or a chestnut, one in four would be red dun, one in sixteen would be a chestnut.
Regarding the way Kigers grey out, I do not think it is any different in pattern than how an Andalusian, Lippizan, or any other greying horse greys. They vary widely. I do not think that duns that are going to grey are born looking any different in Kigers than in other horses. Perhaps because a grulla is already a grey tone, one is misled into thinking that one can tell easier than if there is a dun (zebra dun) which will grey. I do not have a picture of a zebra dun that went grey, although I am looking for one. There was a horse on Dreamhorse a few months ago that is zebra dun going grey -- KMA had registered that horse as a zebra dun (so much for the greying expertise of the KMA inspectors) as a yearling, I think, and now the horse is fully grown, but starting to grey. From my memory, one could see it at the end of the tail, and in the face.
Personally, I think calling a horse that one knows is going to grey a "claybank" is misleading, and ultimately can continue to link Kigers and their breeders and sellers with an unethical reputation, that this group of people puts outlandish claims on their horses in efforts to make them seem unique, which adds to the already unprofessional image that occur with other areas of disagreement. Kigers are unique, and people don't need to put some sort of exaggerated spin on them to show that. I think when people do that, it calls into question the validity of the other unique qualities that people claim with these horses, which are truthful.
Although I am glad to see that people who once insisted that claybanks were dun plus cream, who just happened to also have a greying gene, now admit that the horses really are just greys, there are still sites (yes, Dianne, I just checked yesterday) that say that claybank -- the dun plus cream -- is a rare and special color in the Kigers. The cream gene has so far not been found in Kigers, and it being dominant, I would think if it were there, one or two non-dun palominos or buckskins would have appeared in the gathers. There was an entire article claiming that claybanks were dun plus cream in Conquistador Magazine, one of the sites links to it. What is the purpose of calling these horses "claybank" rather than tell people that they are duns but will go grey, so ultimately the color is grey? Doesn't seem quite straight up, to me.
When someone refering to Kigers says the word "claybank" it means grey. Grey horses are nice, too.
Diane P.
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Quality Horses of Iberian Descent
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OkieKigers
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10# |
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RE:Claybank coat colour ????????
(Date Posted:04/19/2008 12:09 PM)
Dianne C, I am "dun" with dungenes, so to speak. It's sufficient to say I don't get along with Barbara. And I still have it burned in my brain the lady in that group from several years ago who sent her horse to the packer because he bucked. She had never had a buck in her life, so, instant death sentence for the horse. Not the kind of folks I want to transpire with, I guess. But I hear what you are saying. Casper was BORN nearly white with dark points; one reason for taking so long to peg him, because, previously, I too expect a dark foal that would gradually lighten if it were gray. We got one that was light-bodied from the get-go. Diane P, was there not a stalliion in the 2003 gather, that not only looked like a palomino, but was also described by the BLM as being a palomino? And, of course there are grays being called claybank, but there are horses whose owners call claybanks that are NOT grey. But, why is is such an issue? Just how important is color to the making of a good horse? Does it make sense to reject a great horse like Flashpoint and then turn around a register a crappy little dun (I won't put the names out, but in typing this I can visualize several, really crappy dun horses that got honors at inspection time), and then brag about how wonderful the inspection process is at refining the breed? And, I get calls all the time from people who think that dun is the same as buckskin, and have difficulty when I tell them there is a difference. Got one about three days ago in fact, from somebody who thought Kigers are buckskins.
But, you know, I guess it just depends on what your priorities are. I guess the main reason I lost interest in researching color was because of too many people getting nasty and accusing other people of being stupid or dishonest, when all those other people really have done is seen something in a different way. When anyone tells somebody they are "unethical" or "dishonest" just because they don't agree with them on horse color, well, all I can think is, how petty can it get? By that theory, I guess Lloyd Mulholland was dishonest, too, when he wrote "claybank" on Mestana's certificate and signed it. Was the BLM being unethical in 2003...because they listed my gray Kiger mare as a "buckskin" on HER certificate. I mean, just laugh it off and tell your clients that use of the word "claybank" is up for grabs in this circle. Good grief. But then, we don't have to worry about it in those associations where registration is not contingent on color. In spite of having too many registries, I am really relieved that most of them acknowledge that, gee whiz, not all Kigers are dun.
(Message edited by OkieKigers on 04/19/2008 12:16 PM)
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If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle. --Rita Mae Brown
http://www.wilnet1.com/~okiekigers
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