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amharp
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(Date Posted:09/05/2005 10:59 PM)
Hello there Ole Mule!
My girl's ears are natural and I love them that way! :-) I'm sure you'll get some other more expert advice from others on the board, but I thought I'd offer my 2?FWIW. I have read that many groomers, vet techs and breeders claim they see more ear infections in cropped ears. Where do you live? I believe cropped ears are more susceptible to frostbite. And of course there's just the pain felt by the dog to have this done (and the cost and hassle to the owner of doing it). I guess it all depends on if you like one look marginally better than the other. If I was undecided or on the fence, I personally wouldn't do it. It would have to be really important to me for one reason or another to put the dog (and myself) through it.
Have you read through the posts on the "Questions on Ear Cropping" board? That might give you some idea of what's involved. All that info may help sway you one way or the other.
Good luck with your decision! How old is your pup?
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Zoes_Dad
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 3:00 AM)
I wouldn't do it again. I did it to Zoe at 15 weeks and it was one of the most traumatic things we've ever experienced. Her ears do look wonderful now, but regardless...
If it wasn't done by the breeder, forget it. That's my 2 cents.
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Zoe The Grouch, 4/6/04 Salt & Pepper bitch
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jbekah
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 3:58 AM)
Hello! I guess I have to add in my 2cents worth too! Hee hee. To me there is nothing cuter than Mickey looking at me with those cute little ears folded over and flopping around. I have always loved his ears and personally don't care for the cropped look. It's really my own opinion. We have had sooo many comments on how cute Mickey is and I really think it's the ears. When we're doing our obedience, he looks up at me and sometimes his ears are standing straight up...it's priceless!
Kristen Scott
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Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
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LuvsmyGweny
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 6:55 AM)
Reply to : jbekah
Hello! I guess I have to add in my 2cents worth too! Hee hee. To me there is nothing cuter than Mickey looking at me with those cute little ears folded over and flopping around. I have always loved his ears and personally don't care for the cropped look. It's really my own opinion. We have had sooo many comments on how cute Mickey is and I really think it's the ears. When we're doing our obedience, he looks up at me and sometimes his ears are standing straight up...it's priceless!Kristen Scott
heres mine as well .. Ha Ha  Gweny has natural ears or uncorpped and I was not sure if I could love em in the begining. I wanted to crop her ears. Now I have no regrets I like em just the way they are. I choose not to because my research told me that ear cropping has in recent years become less common this made me feel at ease that she would not look odd compared to other schnauzers. And I just loved her so much I did not want her to feel any pain.
Melinda
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Ole Mule
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 4:56 PM)
Thanks for the replys. I printed some pic's of cropped and not cropped for my wife to look at last night. We have decided NOT to crop. May step on a few toes here but she said some of the cropped ears made the MS look like devil dogs. LOL. Not my words. hehe. We both liked some of them.
Amharp...I live in S.E. Kentucky. Harley will be 11 weeks old tomorrow."8th"
Ole Mule
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2 mini schnauzers
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6#
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 6:52 PM)
From the name you can see we have 2 minis. Willie is a rescue and his ears were cropped when we rescued him. Greta we got from the breeder. We asked him if any of his pups had uncropped ears to see if they would stand up. He had never had anyone inquire and said to his knowledge all had been cropped. Well Greta was the first. She looks like a puppy still at age 3 because of her ears. It is just personal preference. I can tell in the dark which one is hogging the covers.
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johnine
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MsBritmor
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 8:52 PM)
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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jelliot
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(Date Posted:09/06/2005 9:41 PM)
Terrific pics, Karen! Here's our 2 cents worth too! We got Gus at 10 weeks old with uncropped ears. We asked our vet if there was anything medical that would require the ears cropped. He said it was totally personal preferrence about what you liked to see. We felt if it wasn't medically needed, Gus didn't have to endure that torture just for looks. We like to cropped ear look but not enough to have it done. We kind of like his floppy ears and you can certainly tell what type of mood he's in by his ears!
Gus' mom, Anna
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nmrickie
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(Date Posted:09/07/2005 12:11 AM)
My aunt has a cropped mini and I think it looks smart. Our dog has natural ears, and one is always up and the other always down. This would probably get him branded "defective" in the show arena, but it sure looks cute!
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vivilee
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(Date Posted:09/07/2005 3:10 PM)
Ear cropping will eventually become obsolete and illegal. It already has in most parts of Europe.
Ear cropping affects the vagus nerve in the ear. It is a nerve that works with the heart. When ears are cropped it becomes harder for the heart to work--therefore, it shortens the lifespan of the dog--all for appearence reasons--it's just sad.
Remember, when cropping ears it is like chopping the top half of your own ear. Think about that before cropping ears just to "look better".
Personally, I think schnauzer ears look way better uncropped--even the jackrabbit ears can be folded down somewhat if the hair on the ears is left longer instead of shaving them if that's what the concern is about.
The next schnauzer puppy I get will not get his tail cropped either. Schnauzers look very cute with tails!
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Ripleys Mom
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(Date Posted:09/07/2005 9:43 PM)
Ripley's ears are cropped, but I think whoever did it did not do it properly. They seem more curved than most pictures I have seen of MS w/cropped ears. If we ever get a MS puppy, not sure we would do it.
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Ripleys Mom
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12#
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(Date Posted:09/07/2005 9:46 PM)
Ripley's ears are cropped, but I think whoever did it did not do it properly. They seem more curved than most pictures I have seen of MS w/cropped ears. If we ever get a MS puppy, not sure we would do it.
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KristinW
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(Date Posted:09/07/2005 11:34 PM)
Reply to : vivilee
Ear cropping affects the vagus nerve in the ear. It is a nerve that works with the heart. When ears are cropped it becomes harder for the heart to work--therefore, it shortens the lifespan of the dog--all for appearence reasons--it's just sad.
I have heard this before and did some research on it, but couldn't find a reputable source (such as a study) that backed up the info. If you have research the proves this, then please post on the forum as I would like to read it. What I have learned about the vagus nerve is that it runs from the back of the throat (base of the neck) to the heart, so I don't understand how ear cropping would affect it in any way.
My personal opinion: I like both cropped and uncropped ears. Baron has cropped ears. We were really worried about whether to have it done or not. Our last dog had chronic ear infections and I had heard cropped ears have less infections, so that was the deciding factor. That and also I was able to find a vet with a reputation for doing a beautiful cropped ears, I wouldn't have had it done if I hadn't found a vet with a good reputation for this procedure. Baron's ears are perfect and the sutures were so nicely done. He was uncomfortable the day it was done and was lethargic (the anesthesia was probably part of it too). The next day he was running around like any normal puppy and didn't seem bothered by his ears at all.
I know this is a hot button topic and some are dead-set against it for valid reasons. I totally respect other's decision to not have this done. However, I don't feel at all guilty for having it done, especially when I saw how much it didn't bother Baron.
Kristin
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"Whoever said you can"t buy happiness forgot about puppies."
Gene Hill
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vivilee
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14#
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(Date Posted:09/08/2005 1:22 AM)
http://publications.royalcanin.com/renvoie.asp?type=1&id=102388&cid=28304&com=4&animal=1&lang=2&session=753730
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8886957&query_hl=4
The first source is a publication of a very reputable veterinary journal that Royal Canin archives on their website. The second source is Medline (the source for all medical related studies) that proves that the pinna of the ear in dogs contains nerves such as the vagus nerve.
But even if I didn't know all that--I still wouldn't crop ears. It's just unnecessary! I'm not against cosmetic surgery in humans but who cares about the cosmetics of dogs honestly?? It's just for our own benefit and that's just not fair to the dogs. I mean are they going to make fun of another dog just because it has ears that stick up like a rabbit?
People are going to crop the ears of dogs anyway simply because they can until it become illegal. I'm not going to say they are terrible people but I do feel sorry for the dogs.
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KristinW
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(Date Posted:09/08/2005 4:15 AM)
Reply to : vivilee
http://publications.royalcanin.com/renvoie.asp?type=1&id=102388&cid=28304&com=4&animal=1&lang=2&session=753730http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8886957&query_hl=4The first source is a publication of a very reputable veterinary journal that Royal Canin archives on their website. The second source is Medline (the source for all medical related studies) that proves that the pinna of the ear in dogs contains nerves such as the vagus nerve.But even if I didn't know all that--I still wouldn't crop ears. It's just unnecessary! I'm not against cosmetic surgery in humans but who cares about the cosmetics of dogs honestly?? It's just for our own benefit and that's just not fair to the dogs. I mean are they going to make fun of another dog just because it has ears that stick up like a rabbit?People ar
The first link you've listed here, is a dog encyclopedia that is produced by Royal Canin. They don't say that ear cropping causes a shortened life span, just that it may cause problems with anesthesia. Perhaps since the encyclopedia is made for consumers and not veterinary professionals, they didn't see the need to list sources of this information. So, we have no way to check their material to see if the research is backing up their opinions.
The PubMed study mentions trying to map out the nerves of the pinna. It makes no mention of ear cropping, much less it's effects on the vagus nerve and heart rate. It does state that the 3 nerves in the pinna have a vagus contribution, but that can't be translated into meaning cropping ears will effect the heart rate and shorten your dogs life.
Kristin
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"Whoever said you can"t buy happiness forgot about puppies."
Gene Hill
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vivilee
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16#
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(Date Posted:09/08/2005 4:27 AM)
I simply don't have the time to go into any debates here because the point is people are going to crop ears whether I like it or not--even if it does become illegal.
I don't care about the people who think cropping ears is good and harmless--that's their opinion and I respect that opinion--it's the dog I feel sorry for... I just wouldn't do it to my dogs, and I will continue to believe that anything that is supposed to be on the body that contains nerves of any kind should be there--especially on a dog. Why on earth does acupuncture work? No one knows but it does.
It's good to ask questions and delve into the depths and find out answers so I'm glad you did, but simply by my own gut instinct I will not crop ears and that is that. I will not do it, never will!
Why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that...phew!
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KristinW
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(Date Posted:09/08/2005 4:53 AM)
reply to vivilee:
It's good to ask questions and delve into the depths and find out answers so I'm glad you did, but simply by my own gut instinct I will not crop ears and that is that. I will not do it, never will!
I never used to ask questions about my dog, didn't know what questions to ask....now I'm much more skeptical of what I read. I like to have hard facts when possible. I'm not saying your points are wrong, for all I know they are indeed correct, and ear cropping has implications for our dogs health. I just find this stuff really interesting and am always trying to learn more.
The reason I had our dog's ears cropped was for prevention of ear infections. Later, I learned that cropping ears might not make any difference. Knowing this, I'm not going to crop the ears of any of our pets in the future. Whether the procedure didn't bother Baron or not isn't really the point either....I'm glad it didn't bother him, if it had I would have really felt awful and guilty about it. If I had known then, that it probably wasn't going to have a health benefit, I never would have done it.
Why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that...phew!
I actually do agree with a lot you've said--hard to tell from my posts eh?  Thanks for debating the issue with me, I had been looking for the vagus nerve/pinna connection and couldn't find anything until you posted the pubmed link. (I had looked there too, just didn't get the right search terms I guess).
Kristin
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"Whoever said you can"t buy happiness forgot about puppies."
Gene Hill
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MsBritmor
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18#
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(Date Posted:09/08/2005 7:12 AM)
Reply to : vivilee
Ear cropping affects the vagus nerve in the ear. It is a nerve that works with the heart. When ears are cropped it becomes harder for the heart to work--therefore, it shortens the lifespan of the dog--all for appearence reasons--it's just sad.
I have been breeding schnauzers for something like 35 years, and up until seven years ago, they have all been cropped. Most of my dogs have lived long lives, with the oldest being 17 (yes, she was cropped!). Cropped Witch is still competing in Tunnelers at 13-1/2, and finished her Superior Open Tunnelers degree last weekend!
I think putting out information like this is just as incorrect/irresponsible as saying that cropping prevents ear infections! Where is your proof? Please post a veterinarian URL that has this information.
****************************************
Update: Okay, I just saw the two URLs, and Kristin pretty much said what I would have about them. No correlation there whatsoever between earcropping and lifespan. I sincerely doubt that any studies have been done on this.
Earcropping is a personal choice, and the responsibility of the breeder, not the buyer.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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amharp
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19#
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(Date Posted:09/08/2005 11:40 PM)
Reply to : MsBritmor
...just as incorrect/irresponsible as saying that cropping prevents ear infections!
If you're referring to my post, that's not quite what I said. ;-)
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vivilee
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(Date Posted:09/09/2005 3:58 PM)
http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/6/732
Here is another article on the effect of the right and left vagus nerve and the auricle system when it is removed.
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vivilee
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(Date Posted:09/09/2005 3:58 PM)
http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/6/732
Here is another article on the effect of the right and left vagus nerve and the auricle system when it is removed.
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2cute4me
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(Date Posted:09/09/2005 9:32 PM)
Reply to : vivilee
http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/6/732Here is another article on the effect of the right and left vagus nerve and the auricle system when it is removed.
hi Vivilee, this topic caught my attention, and I looked at this website. It is dated 1912. Have you run across anything more current? I would be interested in taking a look.
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MsBritmor
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23#
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(Date Posted:09/09/2005 11:04 PM)
Reply to : amharp
"Reply to : MsBritmor
...just as incorrect/irresponsible as saying that cropping prevents ear infections!
If you're referring to my post, that's not quite what I said. ;-)" .... Amharp
Da-huh??? My last response was to Vivilee and the above italics were **MY** words. I was certainly not quoting you (or referring to anyone here in particular if that is what you are thinking.... that old wives' tale [about ear infections] is one that continues to circulate among the ignorant).
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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Kalyn
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(Date Posted:09/09/2005 11:06 PM)
Vivilee,
The article you posted is really interesting, but I don't see any reference to the ears. How does ear cropping affect the vagus?
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MsBritmor
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(Date Posted:09/10/2005 12:22 AM)
Reply to : vivilee
http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/6/732Here is another article on the effect of the right and left vagus nerve and the auricle system when it is removed.
I don't believe ears are mentioned anywhere in that article. "Auriculoventricular system" is in reference to the heart (ie. auricles and ventricles apparently referring specific areas of the heart). I found this study in regard to auricles and ventricles: http://www.pubmedcentral.com/pagerender.fcgi?artid=434585&pageindex=1#page One must realize that these articles are quite dated, and possibly terminology has changed over the past 80-90 years.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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vivilee
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26#
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(Date Posted:09/10/2005 4:31 AM)
http://www.aniwa.com/talc/pages/2/67605_1.htm
The vagus nerve is in the ear pinna. The same article that was on the Royal Canin website is also on the ANIWA website--a very reputable source.
Because the vagus nerve has something to do with slowing down the rate of the heart--dogs who undergo any further surgeries under anesthesia are at a greater risk of heart failure. The vagus nerve is located in many parts of the dog--including the ears, throat, eyes and other extremities.
Most pups have their ears cropped when they are young. The surgery itself is not painful because the dog is under anesthesia (isoflurane)--everyone knows the risks of anesthesia.
Recovery IS painful--you have to admit that since they did just get half their ears amputated. The ear is in dressings and you have to take care that the dog doesn't scratch the dressings off and cause infections. The dog is under a lot of stress and pain. I personally found spaying my dog was stressful enough as it was with my dog wearing a stupid cone and knocking into walls and the stress of constantly disciplining her for something she just doesn't understand on top of it all. She constantly tried to lick the incision etc.--it was a bloody pain in the arse although very worth it because of the health and safety benefits of spaying.
BUT, why on earth would I want to go through that kind of worry AGAIN with ear cropping--for no possible health benefit? My dog doesn't want it, obviously, it will be under some sort of post-operative trauma because of it and I certainly don't want to pay $300 to do it to my dog--I can think of a million other better things to do with that kind of money. Plus, vets are just not trained in school for pet cosmetic surgery and so you are at the mercy of the vet who may give you schnauzer "devil horns"--(ears cropped too closely), instead of ears.
AND, to conclude, from now on I will only get my future schnauzer from a breeder that REFUSES to crop the ears or at least gives me the choice to decide whether or not to do it. The dog can't make the decision. I believe that would be the best kind of breeder since they are thinking about the true welfare of the dog and not about conformation/reputation and cosmetic appearances.
And you know what? All this talk about ear cropping really just fuels my fire...I'm going to make the time to make sure that ear cropping is banned in Canada--and I know I have many supporters.
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MsBritmor
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27#
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(Date Posted:09/10/2005 7:40 PM)
Reply to : vivilee
The ear is in dressings and you have to take care that the dog doesn't scratch the dressings off and cause infections
No, they are not in "dressings" after cropping; doing this would retard the healing process. Some ears need to be "coned"... braced, *after* the sutures have been removed and the ears have healed. This is not dissimilar to taping/gluing uncropped ears to help them to lay correctly.
And you are as entitled to buying an uncropped dog as someone else is to selecting one that has already been cropped.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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schnauzerstwo
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28#
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(Date Posted:09/10/2005 10:00 PM)
Hi All!
We have two minis and neither have cropped ears. I would not purchase a pup with cropped ears. I think that boycotting this inhumane process is the only way we will get breeders to stop doing it.
They are beautiful with their little floppy ears. Let's work on getting breeders to leave their tails alone too!!!
Heidi
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babybeau
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29#
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(Date Posted:10/07/2005 1:24 AM)
I know this is an old topic, which has probably been hashed over / died out a thousand times, but I have done quite a bit of research as to why tails / ear were ever "chopped off" in the first place. From a rational, historical perspective (seriously all emotions aside), I think it necessary to examine the origins of such custom and similar customs (after all, humans still practice circumcision / infant piercings without any real health benefits) before stating that they are beneficial to the animal. Honestly, I have only come across one line of reasoning that even remotely appears O.K...to prevent tail / ear injuries in hunting dogs at a time in history, when antibiotic treatments were unavailable and frequent infections possibly deadly. Bottom line, it IS a biomedical surgery that is painful to the animal, so each person has to decide whether that pain is worth their own personal preference.
Now for my 2 cents...and a little emotion. Virtually every breeder in the Atlanta area, asked us how we preferred our puppy. One guy was so upsetting, I didn't even call back...he was like, "Yeah, well I need to know cropped and docked or just cropped or just docked or whatever." It really hit home then. I was thinking to myself, what is this...Russion roulette with doggie parts? Anyway, it's just a custom, like anything else...and as humans, we tend to impose our own cultural / religious / societal / sometimes just plain stupid customs on everyone else and our pets.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm
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MsBritmor
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30#
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(Date Posted:10/07/2005 6:48 PM)
Reply to : babybeau
From a rational, historical perspective (seriously all emotions aside), I think it necessary to examine the origins of such custom and similar customs (after all, humans still practice circumcision / infant piercings without any real health benefits) before stating that they are beneficial to the animal. Honestly, I have only come across one line of reasoning that even remotely appears O.K...to prevent tail / ear injuries in hunting dogs at a time in history, when antibiotic treatments were unavailable and frequent infections possibly deadly.
This was true in the case of the hunting breeds and probably in the case of some of the terriers. In others, it was done to show the tax assessors that this was a working dog (Old English Sheepdogs, Bouviers, etc.) and not a taxable foo-foo pet. Some of the smaller dogs were "spit" dogs (did a sort of rodent wheel thing to turn meat in the fireplace) or were farmdogs. I believe that our breed fell more into the working farmdog category.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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