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MsBritmor
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1#
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(Date Posted:02/16/2006 8:09 PM)
Reply to : MyGalBaylee
Who do I choose? We are limited on funds so I cannot try both for any amount of time, and I want to do what is right for Baylee.
Personally, I do not believe that *all* training can be motivational. I think dogs have to realize that there can be repercussions for wrong behavior. Yes, motivational is TERRIFIC for teaching new behaviors, but after that, the dog (just as people) must make *choices* as to their behaviors..... good and bad.... and they must learn that wrong choices will have unpleasant reactions. Let's face it, many bad behaviors are VERY rewarding for a dog!
Corrections should always start out at the lowest possible level (verbal), and escalate as needed for that particular dog (or infringement). Ace, for instance, really doesn't need much more than a verbal "AH-AHHHH! wrong" when I am working with him now, but every once in awhile he grabs his treat a bit too hard and gets my finger, and then he really hears about that from me (as does probably the entire neighborhood)<G> If a dog needs a physical correction, it should be given, in my opinion.... but again, always start out at the lowest level and escalate as needed.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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merrymann
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(Date Posted:02/16/2006 8:22 PM)
Reply to : MsBritmor
Reply to : MyGalBayleeWho do I choose? We are limited on funds so I cannot try both for any amount of time, and I want to do what is right for Baylee.Personally, I do not believe that *all* training can be motivational. I think dogs have to realize that there can be repercussions for wrong behavior. Yes, motivational is TERRIFIC for teaching new behaviors, but after that, the dog (just as people) must make *choices* as to their behaviors..... good and bad.... and they must learn that wrong choiceswill have unpleasant reactions. Let's face it, many bad behaviors are VERY rewarding for a dog!Corrections should always start out at the lowest possible level (verbal), and escalate
Ditto can be a problem when he figures out from my actions that we're going for a walk. He runs like a crazy dog, barking, grabbing toys, jumping up in front of me and lately, grabbing my jacket as I'm putting it on. I tried verbal correction, but I don't think he could pay any attention to me at the state he was in. The one command that he always obeys is "sit." I made him get up in the chair and sit quietly until I was ready. The first day, it was difficult, but he did it. The next day, the little pest completely forgot about sitting and waiting for me. Back in the chair! And, I wasn't very nice about making him do it. Today, he stayed away from me, running across the living room with a toy. I don't mind this, but grabbing my jacket (or my pant leg!) is definitely going too far. I also make him sit while I put his leash on, put my gloves on and open the door. I would prefer to make him go out of the door behind me, but the way the door opens and the wind hitting it make it almost impossible to do this. I do make him go out of the door and, again, wait for me to lock the door and shut the storm door.
He'll be 7 next month, and we're still trying to figure out who is boss around here! Can you say stubborn?
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GMann
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blaze13
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(Date Posted:02/16/2006 10:25 PM)
I'm certainly a novice at all of this, but using corrections have worked for us. The manner in which KarenB describes the escallation of correction--here and on the aggression thread-- is exactly how I've dealt with Cooper and it has worked well.
The trainer we work with is all about positive reinforcement. So, we started working on the barking with a squirt bottle and treating when he became quiet. This was great... for a while, but then it began to loose effectiveness. I knew that he understood that he was to be quiet--he would bark and then look for the squirt bottle. He chose to disobey.
Our trainer--who, btw, I really love-she's great--told me to just keep working with the squirt bottle and positive reinforcement. But, it didn't seem to take care of the problem and I was getting extremely frustrated.
We were at a match a while back and Cooper was behaving horribly. I wouldn't even take him inside. That's when a very nice woman--I'm fairly certain she was a trainer herself--began talking with me and showed me the types of correction methods KarenB has described. It worked like a charm--that day, as a matter of fact.
Our trainer and others at the training center have remarked on his improved behavior...funny how that "miraculously" occured--haha.
It seems to me that the key is understanding how to do it correctly and knowing how much is enough. Plus, your timing has to be just right. It's not the easiest thing I've ever had to learn!!
I do use a prong collar on him, but I look forward to the day when we no longer need it. We've definitely made progress with it. Often, while in class or "practicing" at the training center, I only attach a lead to his regular collar, but I leave it on just in case we need it. It really does look awful, but only rarely does his behavior warrent a pop on that collar. He knows he has it on and what it does--I wonder if that doesn't influence his "decision making" process!!
Karen
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2 mini schnauzers
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4#
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(Date Posted:02/17/2006 12:24 AM)
The training center where I go recommended a squirt bottle and it works like a charm, until Greta is overcome by a class of 15 new dogs. One of the instructors asked me if she could show something that worked with he MS. She firmly holds the beard and brings the dogs face up to hers and very frimly says NO. If Greta is in arms reach all I have to do is touch her beard and get great results. It seems that the setting , a walk, a class or small gathering all seem to need a different intervention. Maybe I am sending mixed messages but this seems to work for Greta.
Also the "sit" before going thru the door and getting ready for the walk seems to calm her. She starts to "simmer" when the leash is out. This slows the excitement before we ever encounter another dog. Ms Britmor is correct in the statement that we need to anticipating a responed to stop it before it starts. This works, but sometimes I stop and smell the roses and pay the price.
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johnine
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snazy b
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(Date Posted:02/20/2006 1:17 PM)
I'm going to be the contraversial one here! I would try the positive method and have known it to work but it isn't going to be a quick fix.
I really can't see why you would want to use correction on a dog that is acting up through FEAR
If a dog was scared to go into a crate would you smack it until it ran in tail between the legs and peeing through fear (as that was the lesser of 2 evils for the dog) or would you make the assosiations with the crate a fun and positive one?
With dogs who have missed out on key socialisation and now act aggressive from fear towards other dogs this is what I would do.
Find yourself a stooge dog (a friends dog who will not react to how yours behaves), find an area with plenty of space and no other dogs around. Have the other dog stay in one spot. Slowly walk your dog towards the other one, as she starts to react (when you see her tense up but before she goes into the full on scare away the other dog routine) turn away from the other dog and as soon as she relaxes reward her with a really good treat. If you keep doing this you will get slowly closer to the other dog.
In the street when you are walking the dog make sure you remain relaxed when there is another dog around (otherwise she will pick up on how you feel and react) if you see a dog coming towards you get her to focus on you and sit facing you, giving her planty of rewards while she is looking at you and not the other dog
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MsBritmor
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6#
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(Date Posted:02/20/2006 10:05 PM)
Reply to : 2 mini schnauzers
One of the instructors asked me if she could show something that worked with he MS. She firmly holds the beard and brings the dogs face up to hers and very frimly says NO.
Well, this is terrific.... until the day she tries that with a truly dominant schnauzer with no bite inhibition. The woman will have her face removed. Personally, I want a better grip on a strange dog than just a handful of beard if I am going to challenge it that seriously.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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MyGalBaylee
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7#
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(Date Posted:02/21/2006 4:07 PM)
Thanks for the advice, all
Snazy B - actually, that is what we've been doing. For 6 months. I'm happy to continue to do it that way if I was seeing some progress, but I'm simply seeing no progress at all with it. I'm no closer to being able to walk down the street with my dog not freaking out today than 6 months ago. With dogs behind fences, she's fine. But as soon as she spots another dog, it goes from interest to 'attack' in a millisecond. As soon as the dog is spotted, there is no turning her...no distracting her, even with the best treat ever (I've tried beef tenderloin!). Hence my situation...
I don't want her to be scared or fearful, I just don't want to continue doing something that isn't working at all.
Thanks for the continued advice...
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Onyx1028
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8#
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(Date Posted:02/27/2006 9:34 PM)
Reply to : MyGalBaylee
Thanks for the advice, allSnazy B - actually, that is what we've been doing. For 6 months. I'm happy to continue to do it that way if I was seeing some progress, but I'm simply seeing no progress at all with it. I'm no closer to being able to walk down the street with my dog not freaking out today than 6 months ago. With dogs behind fences, she's fine. But as soon as she spots another dog, it goes from interest to 'attack' in a millisecond. As soon as the dog is spotted, there is no turning her...no distracting her, even with the best treat ever (I've tried beef tenderloin!). Hence my situation...I don't want her to be scared or fearful, I just don't want to continue doing something that isn't working at all.Thanks for the continued advice...
I'm having the exact same problem with Onyx. What do I do about Onyx's aggression towards other dogs when one of them (either himself or the other dog) is on-leash or otherwise restricted? When I take him to dog parks (where everyone is off-leash), he's fine. But on walks or during our obedience classes, he goes insane. And it's the only time he's aggresive; he growls and barks, and if he's close enough, he goes for the other dog's face. I've been wondering if it's an age thing or a size thing or a terrier thing, but in our obedience class there are other puppies of the same age (9 months), other small dogs, and other terriers, and none of them act like this. We are now in Advanced Obedience, so he knows commands and does really well when it's just the two of us. But I've tried everything: a squirt bottle, a gentle leader, treats for being quiet, a shaker can, grabbing his beard and telling him "no", everything. He even growls and barks at dogs he sees when looking out the window. My trainer said not to use a prong collar because that would only increase the aggression towards other dogs (since the correction is similar to how another dog would correct him). He's a full 20 pounds, and I have to get him in a sit and hold him there to keep him from harming other dogs. It's crazy!
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Christ1an
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9#
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(Date Posted:02/27/2006 11:06 PM)
One of my younger dogs, Berangaria, seems to be poorly socialized suddenly after having gone to Cares-a-Lot for grooming. (I couldn't do it, bad disc. And the idiots cut off her mask, really ticked me off. Although it did all want to stand straight up. How does one keep it in place?) So I took her over to PetSmart for an hour of hanging around in the aisles. She started the same lunging and barking at other dogs. I read somewhere that dogs can't bark with their mouths shut. So I wrapped my fingers around her mouth and pushed her shoulders down to the ground. By the end of the hour, she wasn't doing the lunging and barking. This little dog tries to dominate all my other dogs and has been on the receiving end of a few "alpha rolls." So that background may help. I try to keep Berry from hassling my old dog, Charlotta.
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Christ1an
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10#
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(Date Posted:02/27/2006 11:08 PM)
And once I've pushed her shoulders down to the ground, she has to stay there until I'm satisfied there will be no more barking and she will behave herself.
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Onyx1028
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11#
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(Date Posted:02/28/2006 6:44 PM)
Reply to : Predisposed
And once I've pushed her shoulders down to the ground, she has to stay there until I'm satisfied there will be no more barking and she will behave herself.
I've often wondered if getting another dog would help, or if it would just result in Onyx ALWAYS barking and trying to attack the new dog. I've held his mouth shut and have since learned that, although it's not a full "bark", he can still make a lot of noise through his nose. And he never learns for long; he may eventually be quiet if we're in a store (like PetSmart), but by the time we get outside, it starts all over again. Several people have suggested I use a shock collar, and although I never wanted to resort to these means, these people swear by them. I've never had to teach Onyx anything by inflicting pain, but I can't reward the positive when he won't behave long enough to get a treat, not to mention that apparently attacking another dog is a LOT more rewarding than any treat I could give him.
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Christ1an
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12#
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(Date Posted:03/01/2006 3:06 AM)
If I have this straight, we've got Baylee and Onyx both aggressive to other dogs. Onyx is 9 mo., Baylee is 4 years old. Baylee came from an irresponsible breeder and her prior experience with other dogs is uncertain
Onyx barks and growls at dogs he sees out the window. I think this is pretty normal and is why Miniature Schnauzers are considered good guard dogs. But it should stop when you give the command.
I have underground fencing and my dogs run outside all day, and when I come home at night, they're tired. And barked out. So what works for me may not work for you. If my pups were crated all day, I don't know how they'd act. I'm fairly positive on electric collars. The dog only gets shocked once or twice, but they do act like it's killing them. After that, the collar makes a noise when the dog gets close to the boundary. The dog goes back to the house and the noise stops. The dog will do anything to stop the noise that precedes the shock. I never tried it to stop barking but I tend to think it would work well.
Is there an interaction you have with the dogs where the dog recognize you as Alpha and responds instinctually by cowering? This "I'm Alpha, you cower, what you did was wrong and you gotta stop it right now" command should be something that you do very quietly and in a completely calm state. It will have to start loud and very firm, but you should be able to lower the decibel level lots over time. You don't want to inject any energy into the situation, you want to suck the energy out of it. And if your commands are quiet, the dog's got to shut up to hear them. I never yell at my dogs, which was why I pushed Berry down and held her mouth shut. But the "what you did was wrong, stop it" command is like the noise on the collar. Stop now or the end is nigh.
Prong collar might really help on walks. Never tried that, though.
I tend to think my "training results" have more to do with the fact that my dogs run all day and are spent when I get home then to any competence on my part as a trainer.
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Pam999
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13#
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(Date Posted:03/01/2006 4:25 AM)
Reply to : Predisposed
If I have this straight, we've got Baylee andOnyx both aggressive to other dogs. Onyx is 9 mo., Baylee is 4 years old. Baylee came from an irresponsible breeder and her prior experience with other dogs is uncertainOnyx barks and growls at dogs he sees out the window. I think this is pretty normal and is why Miniature Schnauzers are considered good guard dogs. But it should stop when you give the command.I have underground fencing and my dogs run outside all day, and when I come home at night, they're tired. And barked out. So what works for me may not work for you. If my pups were crated all day, I don't know how they'd act. I'm fairly positive on electric collars. The dog only gets shocked once or twice, but they do act like it's killing them. After that, the collar makes a noise when t
I agree on this point. We ask the new owners if they know they can be barkers... days later there is a problem?? <sigh> I ask them what are they trying now. They are barking right back at them. Being a true alpha is not losing control and barking your head off. First take the window away from them and the lost out on that privilage. I remember once taking Delhi to a pet food store and I kept putting her back in the car and walking away. Forget it! You can't behave, then you will get ignored. BYE! LOL! It took years and lots of training paid off. If you give up and leave them at home; what fun is that?
When you get annoyed at home what are you doing; are you on the phone? If you are off the phone and it is O.K. to bark is that O.K.? This is my husbands problem.... "Um, they don't know you are on the phone."
Why don't our dogs bark at the educational functions we have? They didn't come to me all trained and quiet. <G>
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Pam O"Brien
http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/MN144.html
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Onyx1028
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14#
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(Date Posted:03/01/2006 8:24 PM)
I live in a condo, so the only exercise Onyx gets is on our walks or trips to the dog park. I got him from a breeder at 8 weeks old, so I don't think it's his background (unless I've been getting it wrong since I first got him). I never allow barking because we live in a condo, so I don't want him bothering the other tenants. I knew MS were barkers, but I also figured there was a way to control it (as in, bark once or twice when they hear something, then quiet down at my command). NO ONE would keep a dog breed that barked non-stop day and night with no form of control.
People tell me all the time that I need to assert myself as Alpha dog, but I don't understand how. This morning for instance, a dog outside barked once and Onyx went nuts for about 5 minutes (the blinds were closed, so he didn't see the dog, just heard him). I said "quiet" in a firm deep voice, but he only turned around and started barking at me. And when I try to physically correct him (like make him sit down), he runs away. Everything seems to be a game to him, and I think I'm losing. When he's on leash and I try to show my dominance, it turns into a tug-of-war game until I get a hold of his body, then it becomes a wrestling match. I've tried turning my back and ignoring him, but that never did anything either. He'd rather just keep barking. Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong, it's not that he barks too much, it's that I never properly taught him why he should listen to me (when treats aren't enough of a reason, which is quite often, here lately.) What do I do to become the alpha dog?
Sherece
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MsBritmor
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15#
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(Date Posted:03/01/2006 9:16 PM)
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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snazy b
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16#
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Registered:01/07/2006
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(Date Posted:03/01/2006 9:34 PM)
NILIF is just what I was going to suggest - so easy to fit into everyday life and because you're only asking the dog to do something for you so he can get something he wants it doesn't put pressure on the dog - it's their choice.
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Pam999
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17#
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Registered:02/21/2006
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(Date Posted:03/02/2006 8:39 AM)
Reply to : Onyx1028
I live in a condo, so the only exercise Onyx gets is on our walks or trips to the dog park. I got him from a breeder at 8 weeks old, so I don't think it's his background (unless I've been getting it wrong since I first got him). I never allow barking because we live in a condo, so I don't want him bothering the other tenants. I knew MS were barkers, but I also figured there was a way to control it (as in, bark once or twice whenthey hear something, then quiet down at my command). NO ONE would keep a dog breed that barked non-stop day and night with no form of control.People tell me all the time that I need to assert myself as Alpha dog, but I don't understand how.
There is a way to control it. Do you have a crate? Time-outs work very well.
This morning for instance, a dog outside barked once and Onyx went nuts for about 5 minutes (the blinds were closed, so he didn't see the dog, just heard him).
5 minutes is a long time here. Once one dog goes off another will and I have to stop this right away and find the right culprit. Even one that growls... which is Chloe. No one thinks of telling her that is not O.K. LOL! Chloe is often the instigator and people don't realize it.
To be a true alpha you have to be in control. Emotions and frustrations are felt by the dog. Gently take them by the collar and say, "NO!" The lower the voice and the slower the better. If they ignore you make a "Wrong" voice. Mine is, "EH!" "Wrong"... Tell them a command, "DOWN!"... then praise if they do this. If not go back to "Eh!" "Wrong" When they finally do what you say, "JACKPOT!" ROOOO... Roooo...
The thing is they forget what they are doing and listening to you and getting rewarded for good behaviors. You will see a change with constistancy and a alpha Mom that will make sure nothing happens to them.
I saw a change with Delhi when she barked and came to me???? She finally learned; "Mom, somethings out there. Can you make me feel safe?" What a good girl! I am so proud of my girl and you can do it too!
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Pam O"Brien
http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/MN144.html
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Pam999
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18#
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Score:55
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(Date Posted:03/02/2006 8:47 AM)
Reply to : MsBritmor
Reply to : Onyx1028What do I do to become the alpha dog?Nothing in Life is FreeDo this at least three times a week:Long Down
Yes! NILIF! After reading this... Any dog will do good on this. My favorite subject. All dogs go on NILIF in my house when they are misbaving. Nothing In Life Is For Free. You work to make a living and they have to do this too. Taking away jobs means giving them something to do and think about.
I do have an Alpha dog here... she is the black one in the picture; though she needs to listen to me and I am more than Alpha than she would want to be. <G>
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Pam O"Brien
http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/MN144.html
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Onyx1028
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19#
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(Date Posted:03/02/2006 2:28 PM)
Thank you so much for the suggestions, I will definitely try the long downs. But what is NILIF? Is this a well-known concept or book or something? I've never heard of it before, although from the suggestion I assume it's based on the principle that the dog has to obey a command before it can do what it wants.
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KristinW
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20#
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Registered:09/21/2003
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(Date Posted:03/02/2006 3:21 PM)
Reply to : Onyx1028
Thankyou so much for the suggestions, I will definitely try the long downs. But what is NILIF? Is this a well-known concept or book or something? I've never heard of it before, although from the suggestion I assume it's based on the principle that the dog has to obey a command before it can do what it wants.
Try this link for info on NILIF
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
KristinW
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"Whoever said you can"t buy happiness forgot about puppies."
Gene Hill
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Christ1an
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21#
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(Date Posted:03/02/2006 11:57 PM)
Long downs, crate training, Nothing In Life Is Free, I don't know about you, but I'm sure learning a lot!
I tend to think some of the barking with Onyx is high energy youth. Lots of get-up-and-go poured into barking. Tire the pup out, if possible. Karen describes using a tennis ball in the stairwell to exercise her pups, I always thought this was an incredibly ingenious idea. Toy on a string or fishing rod type set up (depending on how much room you have) lets you keep throwing the toy if the dog won't bring it back. Most of my pups don't, and I was never very interested in training them, just wearing them out.
When the dogs are puppies, just brought home, and I'm house breaking mine, a very loud "NO" with hand clapping would always get their attention. And puppies are so submissive, they'll cower just from that, and realize what they did, whatever it was, was wrong. Then, when the "NO" and clapping is repeated with the next pee or poop they begin to think, "oh, maybe it's the peeing and pooping that's wrong." And as they get older, they don't really even want to pee-poop in the house and get trained to go outside. But, they have still learned the no-clap-wrong interaction and can learn not to bite, take your sox, etc. And in stubborn cases, roll the dog over on his back and pin his nose to one side.
And over time, the "NO" gets quieter and softer, the clapping is left out, the dog doesn't bother to cower, but still, the "I'm Alpha, what you did was wrong and must stop" message gets thru.
If the dog is barking his head off and really worked up about another dog, it is very hard to get the Alpha interaction to work, cause the dog doesn't notice you. I found I could usually get thru by hitting the floor in front of the dog with an open hand, palm down. Or grabbing the shoulders and pushing the dog down, holding the mouth shut. Then, if needed, alpha roll.
I like the no-clap-cower sequence because I can usually stop the dog is it's tracks in an emergency. Keep the dog from running into traffic. In an emergency, I don't think I could remember to yell sit, but I can always remember no.
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Pam999
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22#
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(Date Posted:03/04/2006 2:52 AM)
Reply to : Onyx1028
Thankyou so much for the suggestions, I will definitely try the long downs. But what is NILIF? Is this a well-known concept or book or something? I've never heard of it before, although from the suggestion I assume it's based on the principle that the dog has to obey a command before it can do what it wants.
Scan up to Karen's post and it has the link to NILIF. Good luck!
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Pam O"Brien
http://www.petfinder.org/shelters/MN144.html
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Sammer
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23#
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(Date Posted:03/05/2006 6:24 PM)
OK, I'll be the one to show my ignorance and ask if someone could explain just what the LONG DOWN is?
Karen's link doesn't work for me, and I could make a guess, but would really like to know for sure since I'm in the process of 'reastablishing' my role as alpha in this house in the hopes it will help with the fence barking and leash pulling Pearl does.
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Sarah
Pearl and Izzy"s mom
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MsBritmor
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24#
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(Date Posted:03/05/2006 7:03 PM)
Reply to : Sammer
OK, I'll be the one to show my ignorance and ask if someone could explain just what the LONG DOWN is?Karen's link doesn't work for me, and I could make a guess, but would really like to know for sure since I'm in the process of 'reastablishing' my role as alpha in this house in the hopes it will help with the fence barking and leash pulling Pearl does.
Sorry about that! I usually check my links before I post them, but that one has been good for so long that I never even thought to look at it first (I had checked it out not too long ago... HONEST). Apparently the Volhard website has undergone some changes recently....
http://www.volhard.com/general/artbywv.htm#tnw This is a terrific exercise to practice with those dominant dogs.
I once took a trip with a litter of puppies and some adult dogs, and every time we stopped for potty time, the dam singled out one and only one particular bitch puppy to NAIL to the ground every time she moved. Now I saw nothing untoward with that puppy, but Mother (dog) knows best.... and when we returned home and the new owners came to pick up their new puppy, I told them this story and showed them how to practice the Volhards' Long Down... three times a week. That puppy turned into a wonderful dog for them.
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Karen Brittan
Britmor Schnauzers
Pedigree indicates what the animal should be.
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be.
But performance indicates what the animal actually is.
-Author Unknown-
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MyGalBaylee
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25#
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Rank:none
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Registered:10/31/2005
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(Date Posted:03/19/2006 4:34 PM)
A little update on our Baylee girl...
Had our first 'private lesson' with our trainer and Baylee. The trainer watched Baylee exhibit her bark, lunge, bark bark routine with her two scottie dogs walking by, and then helped me understand how to respond to it and got me to improve my technique on the 'leave it' command.
Come to find it out is not all about positive reinforcement...she was giving baylee leash corrections as well when needed, but beginning the process by distracting with a treat is very effective when used properly.
We actually managed to get Baylee walking down the road, ~10 feet from the scotties, without freaking out (as long as we kept her moving!), and she was able to sit about 4 feet from the scotties, as long as I distracted her with a yummy, long lasting (read: she has to work at it) treat while they approached.
I am happy that I did not resort to the shock collar.
One thing really hit home during the training, as I saw the trainer's scottie dogs start barking like crazy at two people riding by on bicycles. Schnauzers, scotties...they are all terrier breeds...and so having a 'laid back' schnauzer or scottie kind of defeats the desire for the breed. Baylee will probably continue to bark at other dogs a time or two when she sees them, and she will continue to be territorial of the house and driveway. But thats part of who she is. And since she is 4 years old, changing that would be much more difficult than managing it. So we just have to manage it.
She is a sweet girl and a little stinker all in one...curled up on her bed under my desk as I type this...
Thanks fora ll the continued advice!
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Onyx1028
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26#
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(Date Posted:03/19/2006 11:33 PM)
Update on Onyx:
Thank you for the website, I got a lot of information about NILIF. I've also been trying the techniques for reestablishing that I'm the alpha. Unfortunately, Onyx has proven that there are a lot of things he'd rather do without (like food) than obey a command. I've tried telling him "down" before I put his food bowl down, and he'd rather walk away and chew on a toy than just lay down so he can eat. I finally just called a personal trainer (someone different from the people we go to for group training) and she will meet with Onyx in a few weeks and tell me what to try from there.
As far as the barking goes, I went out of town for two weeks for work and, although I had someone watch him while I was gone, he was so glad I was back, he's been on his best behavior! LOL! I'm sure this won't last very long, so I'm hoping the trainer will be able to help me with this problem too. I've tried to wear him out at the dog park, but he's so intimidated by the other dogs, he won't run around. And I don't really like the idea of playing with him in the stairwell, because I don't think my neighbors would appreciate him running up and down the stairs, especially since there are other dogs in the building. I did receive one suggestion (via email) about debarking the dog. I looked this up on the internet and learned it's a surgical procedure. If I'm not comfortable using a shock collar, I'm definitely not comfortable about having surgery done. I'm really hoping the personal trainer can help me with Onyx.
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hollie9
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27#
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Rank:none
Score:207
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Registered:01/10/2006
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(Date Posted:03/27/2006 7:06 AM)
Don't you'all watch the Dog Whisperer on National Geographic Channel, it is all about becoming an alpha dog owner and achieving a calm submissive state in your dog(s). It's full of tips that I have incorporated from day one with my 11 month old MS. Now I am definitely the alpha personality and my husband, who doesn't watch the show and tends to baby the pup, is not alpha...the pup doesn't mind him at all.
A number of things in these posts came to mind. Definitely you have to exercise them a lot especially if they have aggression or hyper issues before they will be calm enough to listen and learn. Recommended is 45 minutes.
For the MS that gets intimidated at the dog park; my experience is you just let them be intimidated (and don't cajole or reinforce this behavior with attention while they're displaying it) , eventually they will become dogs and let themselves be smelled and sniff other dogs. Not only does the Dog Whisperer recommend this but my trainer who is similar to the Dog Whisperer, told us that when our pup was in his "Puppy Boot Camp" where he was socialized with other dogs, he stood apart from the other dogs, frozen, for a few days before finally joining the pack. If your dogs could be socialized well, I don't think you'd have this problem with fear and aggression toward other dogs. My pup then became fearful of big dogs, so I left him at the trainer's and told him to socialize my pup with big dogs. He was spending lots of time hanging out with big dogs there and now, no more problems.
Someone wrote:
"Find yourself a stooge dog (a friends dog who will not react to how yours behaves), find an area with plenty of space and no other dogs around. Have the other dog stay in one spot. Slowly walk your dog towards the other one, as she starts to react (when you see her tense up but before she goes into the full on scare away the other dog routine) turn away from the other dog and as soon as she relaxes reward her with a really good treat. If you keep doing this you will get slowly closer to the other dog."
This is opposite what the Dog Whisperer says. You should have the stooge dog and yours walk parallel not face each other. Walking parallel does not trigger a dominant/submissive encounter in the pack but facing another dog does. Walking parallel is what dogs in the same pack do. He and I don't agree with treats (with one exception). Primarily, if you are strong and not going to put up with sh** from your dog, that message gets through, especially with a prong collar, just like the alpha dog. If my dog behaved aggressively toward another he would get a prong correction, I would just keep going making no eye contact with him, not even speak to him just make an aggressive sound toward my dog.
Alpha behavior I did from day one is I never let my pup go through any door or gate ahead of me, I make a point to take his current toy away from him while he is playing with it and just hold it or pretend I'm chewing on it and not make eye contact with him. When he fixates on the cat I knock him out of his fixation by touching him like a bite with two fingers.
I hope your trainer has other dogs your dog can be with for extended periods of time so they can be socialized. I had a great trainer and my MS doesn't bark much, and is socialized and gets along fine with dogs and cats.
Watch the Dog Whisperer, it's great. Also on DVD. You'll see your problem solved in other dog cases he's done.
Hollie
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hollie9
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28#
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Rank:none
Score:207
Posts:207
Registered:01/10/2006
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(Date Posted:03/27/2006 9:12 AM)
Just happened to see a Dog Whisperer show since my above post about one dog that had aggression to other dogs and another 2 dogs showing fear behaviors.
The main thing done for the aggression was socialize the dog with Dog Whisperer's own 40+ dog pack, all well behaved rehabilitated pitt bulls, rotties, and mixed breeds big and small. One key thing was if owner let dog go ahead of them on the leash and through the gate, the pack got all agitated. Brought them in again with good behavior then let them mix with the pack. They began to act normal...showed no aggression or fear.
Another thing he did was when dog came close no talk, just reach and touch with fingers like a claw, simulating a bite....like the comment on the Bitch's bite on her pup above.
I don't think you can get over this aggression problem without a real lot of socialization. It sounds like you're using a choke chain if Bayley is choking, I don't think pinch collars would do that, the corrections don't choke my dog and definitely "snap them out of it" when corrected.
"I have two choices - on is a 'positive reinforcement' trainer who swears that baylee can be helped with the traditional 'train, praise, treat' method. Another is a more traditional trainer that wants to use a correciton 'collar' on Baylee and swears she will NOT be helped by positive reinforcement alone. I tried this only once before and it was a very bad experience, but she says she's got a better collar now more geared for smaller dogs.
Who do I choose? We are limited on funds so I cannot try both for any amount of time, and I want to do what is right for Baylee."
I would go with the not positive reinforcement trainer...this pack leader alpha dog behavior seems to be getting the best results now. You said about trainer: "I saw the trainer's scottie dogs start barking like crazy at two people riding by on bicycles." This does not sound like a good trainer if his own dogs aren't trained well, and they aren't if they are barking like this at people and bicycles. My MS doesn't bark at people or bikes or anything except alerting us to house visitors. This is not a terrier trait they cannot be trained out of.
About Onyx running away instead of obeying a command...I don't give my dog the chance. He's 11 months old, a rebellious phase, and he is on leash inside the house with the exception of one room. You might try keeping Onyx on a leash in the house when you could have upcoming discipline problems, like running away. Until my dog gets older and can be counted on to behave, he will be on leash. I've found even if a heavy chain leash is on him and he drags it around with no human holding it, he is better mannered.
When he is behaving superbly on leash, then I'll start letting him off leash. Our trainer says you don't train for off leash, even in the house, until they do everything right on leash. I also use long downs after bad behavior, usually when my husband has been with him and he gets used to not listening or minding.
About the barking...our trainer uses bark collars with success.
Exercise, discipline and rules, then affection...is what the Dog Whisperer says. And it works for us. We were lucky to get a trainer who has many dogs that can be used to socialize our dog. What a difference.
Good luck,
Hollie
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Onyx1028
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29#
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Rank:none
Score:57
Posts:57
Registered:07/04/2005
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(Date Posted:04/24/2006 12:52 AM)
Update on Onyx:
The trainer says that Onyx is afraid of other dogs, but being a schnauzer, chooses to "kill or be killed" instead of running away like most other dogs would. She does not believe in correction at all, nor does she agree with the "bring him to the dog park and let them figure it out" idea. Her example was, if you're afraid of spiders, is the way to cure that to lock you in a room full of spiders? Right now what she has me do is walk Onyx on a gentle leader and every time he gets excited at the site of another dog, to say "watch me" and when he looks at me, to give him a treat. And although she said it goes against what she usually would suggest, if it doesn't work, to use the gentle leader to pull him away from the situation and try again. After that, use the leash where it connects to his gentle leader (right under his chin) and turn his face to me and say it again. We've been working on this for about a month, and although I can tell he hears me (he slowly starts sitting down, although he continues to face and bark at the dog) Onyx has always been one of those dogs that will patiently take a correction, do what he's told for the treat, and then go back to what he was doing. Someone today told me that with all of the suggestions I keep trying, every time I stop and try something else, he wins, and therefore learned nothing. The problem is that it's very difficult to turn our morning walks (taken before I get ready for work) into 1 hour marathons just because I have to keep stopping and correcting him (telling him to "watch me" about 100 times) every time he sees something. Same with walking him in the rain, snow, extreme cold, etc. But I've learned that he has an extremely high tolerance, and is extremely hard-headed, so in the end, we never accomplish anything because I give up and try something else long before he shows signs of making any kind of progress.
I'm starting to wonder if there is somewhere I can just send him for a while, a kind of boarding school for dogs, so someone who can train him all day every day (since I am NOT that someone) can work with him and probably cure him in a few weeks if not a few days. I need to start making some kind of progress because all other obedience training has come to a stop. He can't compete in obedience competions, or pass the CGC and he can't be tested as a therapy dog (all activities I wanted him to be involved in) until he learns not to attack other dogs. But I really don't know what to do at this point. Maybe prong or shock collars would be the way to go, at least they provide immediate results.
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snazy b
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30#
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Rank:none
Score:227
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Registered:01/07/2006
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(Date Posted:04/24/2006 2:18 AM)
The key to any method is to be consistant if you can't do that then of course whatever method you choose isn't going to work.
It won't do your dog any harm if the morning walk is cut short by you having to stop 100 times to correct the dog. Next day it might only be 80 times.
However, because your dog has learned that you give up to quickly he might display an extinction burst in the behaviour (ie get worse before he gets better)
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