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Nancy and David
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1#
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Rank:none
Score:4
Posts:4
Registered:02/10/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 7:04 PM)
To all of you involved in the organization of this new Kiger registry our hat goes off to you! CONGRATULATIONS!!!! It is long over due!!!!! We have been reading everything on your site and have to compliment you on providing good informative information. Your board of directors appears to be true professionals with experience and knowledge about the Kiger horse. You are showing that the representation is spread throughout the country. More importantly, we appreciate your desire to protect this breed from mans destructive hands by following the BLM's plan.
We would like to make some suggestions. We would like to see more information provided about the true history of the Kiger, from the BLM's stand point, not from any registry or person's point of view. Like actual quotes from their management plan. Those that have taken the time to ask the BLM for information on their management plan know that the breed was described as a certain type and shape, with color being described in their plan. Correct us if we are wrong, but what we have read was that the BLM made the call for describing this horse as a dun factored spanish type horse, with only certain colors being allowed, and weeding out any grays or horses with too much white as these were not to be included in this breed. We find it admirable that this new registry plans on following the BLM's management plan and to require inspections to ensure only horses that meet the BLM's management plan are allowed to be registered. If any of the board members are inspectors we think you have a good bunch of folks to carry through with this plan. We are worried for the breed because of misconceptions that have been spread around by various groups of people concerning what a Kiger horse should be. It appears that some are not even able to distinguish a dun factored quarter horse from a Kiger horse. They are so different that to equate any horse with dun factor being a Kiger is disturbing.
Please keep your chin up and keep a positive mind. You have no where to go but up, and with a positive attitude you will achieve success in no time at all.
David & Nancy Ross
PS Love all your photos of working horses! Good to see you out there using your horses and promoting the breed! That is what it is all about!
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numb butt
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2#
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Registered:02/07/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/10/2007 8:13 PM)
Reply to : Nancy and David
To all of you involved in the organization of this new Kiger registryour hat goes off to you! CONGRATULATIONS!!!! It is long over due!!!!!We have been reading everything on your site and have to compliment you on providing good informative information. Your board of directors appears to be true professionals with experience and knowledge about the Kiger horse.You are showing that the representation is spread throughout the country. More importantly, we appreciate your desire to protect this breed from mans destructive hands by following the BLM's plan.Wewould like to make some suggestions.We would like to see more information provided about the true history of the Kiger, from the BLM's stand point, not from anyregistry or person's point of view.&nbs
We are going through the mountains of BLM and other documents we have covering the origins of and evolution of the Kiger horse. These scanned documents will be posted for all to read. This is taking some time to complete so stay tuned. We are also compiling a book of all horses adopted out of the HMA's as well as all photos and pedigrees we can gather and confirm. This will be updated through the years to provide as complete record of the horse as we can compile. If you know of photos and or documentation please contact myself or Jill with the info.
Numb Butt
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Nancy and David
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3#
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Rank:none
Score:4
Posts:4
Registered:02/10/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/12/2007 1:03 AM)
When will this information be available for everyone to read? It will be nice to be able to read straight from the BLM what the Kiger was meant to look like.
I have printed a membership application and registration and would like to get it done soon. I am not sure the photos will be good enough right now as my horse is in his winter coat (not that bad where I am from) but I am worried that they will not justify the quality that he truly is. Would it be best to wait another month? Do you ever do any inspections out on the road? I live in Arizona and didnt know if you have any inspectors down this way or not. I think the inspections are important to maintain quality Kigers in the breed. I have heard that some don't agree with this, but I have friends that own other breeds that have far more stringent inspection requirements so it is no big deal to me. In my opinion, more breeds should follow suit.
David Ross
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Ridgie
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4#
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Registered:11/04/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/12/2007 6:21 PM)
If this new registry is going to follow the plan the BLM set, then ALL Kigers with a freezebrand showing that BLM say they are a Kiger is accepted or no? I'm confused as I was told a freezebranded Kiger from Riddle will not be accepted into this new registry. Please clarify. Or email me personally, I'm not after a fight, just confused. Thank you.
Nicole
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karismakigers
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5#
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Rank:none
Score:52
Posts:52
Registered:09/15/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/12/2007 10:57 PM)
Reply to : Ridgie
If this new registry is going to follow the plan the BLM set, then ALL Kigers with a freezebrand showing that BLM say they are a Kiger is accepted or no? I'm confused as I was told a freezebranded Kiger from Riddle will not be accepted into this new registry. Please clarify. Or email me personally, I'm not after a fight, just confused. Thank you.Nicole
Hi Nicole,
You have a very valid question. I'll answer you here on the forum in case there is someone else thinking along the same lines and is afraid to ask.
The BLM Management Plan calls for specific characteristics to be present in the animals returned to the wild. Think of the wild herd as the breeding band. The BLM has stated that a particular type of horse is needed/wanted in the breeding band. All others that are outside that particular type, or are of lower quality or or excess are culled (adopted) from the breeding band. As captive breeders, we should be at least maintaining the same quality that the BLM specifies for in their BLM Management Plan.
So you are probably asking, what is in the BLM Management Plan? The History pages aren't finished. It is a monumental task trying to put online nearly 40 years of history. We are hoping to have everything online before the end of the month. We do have the 1996 BLM Management Plan online as well as the 1996 ACEC for Kiger/Riddle herds including pictures depicting what BLM has defined as the Kiger. http://www.kigerhorse.org/History.html , Click on 1996 BLM Management Plan. Specific portions have been layed out for those that want to quickly skim through, while the entire document is available at the bottom. You will see that BLM has specific conformation, color, and dun factor traits in their "Standard" for the Kiger horse.
KHAR has based its inspection process and registration on this plan. So, if the horse in question differs from this plan (i.e. has conformational traits outside of the normal for Kiger (draft, etc.), has particularly bad general conformation, or is not the color specified than it is not a candidate for release and thus not a candidate for registration in the KHAR.
I'll post a tidbit as another topic regarding white markings and colors.
Nicole, you have any more questions, let me know. I'd be happy to explain it publicly or privately. If you are wondering if your horse would qualify, you can email me privately.
Thanks,
Jillian McIntosh
KHAR Secretary
--------------------------------------------------------------
Karisma Kigers
Home of
Kiger"s Cherokee Diamond
Kiger Dunsmuir
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Chiger
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6#
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Rank:none
Score:99
Posts:99
Registered:02/19/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/13/2007 5:52 AM)
Hi to the new Board of Directors!
I was approached today, to lend a hand and step up. For reasons that I am not comfortable posting publicly (they are personal - family type personal - and not anything to do with any member here or the whole Kiger issue at all) I have asked that the discussion get tabled for a wee bit. I commend you all for the mountains of paperwork that you are sifting thru in creating a fair and honest plan.
I do have a few questions however....
1. I am a current member of the KMA, does that mean that I will have to pay additional dues to become a member of this one? Not that I mind...but it is all a little confusing.
2. (Asking for ALL membership) Had I registered Chiger with the KMA (no...I didn't...couldn't swallow all the fighting) would that mean that he would also have to go through the registration process with you also??? Or, is it a case of once on the books...always on the books?
3. (The confusion from past and now mounting with present) There were, I believe, 2 separate registries before. When will the Kiger breed go into one single registry? Or is it? If not...if you recognize Chiger as a registered Kiger and someone from another registry does not, and I go and breed him with a mare from the third...... what does that make that foal??? AND then turning around to sell that foal to someone from the registry that did not identify Chiger as a registered Kiger....is the foal able to be registered on the third registry?
4. IF I agree to be part of this...and I would really like too, just the timing sort of sucks...how much of the past bickering is going to become part of this group? Or...is this one going to become the one and only and proper?
See........COMPLETELY confused. I figured I would post my questions here, as others may be thinking the same things.
Thanks,
Deb
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"Nothing is so strong as gentleness, and nothing so gentle as real strength." - Ralph W. Sockman
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karismakigers
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7#
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Rank:none
Score:52
Posts:52
Registered:09/15/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/13/2007 6:58 AM)
Reply to : Chiger
1. I am a current member of the KMA, does that mean that I will have to pay additional dues to become a member of this one? Not that I mind...but it is all a little confusing.
2. (Asking for ALL membership) Had I registered Chiger with the KMA (no...I didn't...couldn't swallow all the fighting) would that mean that he would also have to go through the registration process with you also??? Or, is it a case of once on the books...always on the books?
3. (The confusion from past and now mounting with present) There were, I believe, 2 separate registries before. When will the Kiger breed go into one single registry? Or is it? If not...if you recognize Chiger as a registered Kiger and someone from another registry does not, and I go and breed him with a mare from the third...... what does that make that foal??? AND then turning around to sell that foal to someone from the registry that did not identify Chiger as a registered Kiger....is the foal able to be registered on the third registry?
4. IF I agree to be part of this...and I would really like too, just the timing sort of sucks...how much of the past bickering is going to become part of this group? Or...is this one going to become the one and only and proper?
Hi Deb,
I'll try to answer your questions.
1. Yes, you will need to pay a membership fee to join KHAR.
KHAR is not an extension of KMA or SMKR. We are a separate registry with separate By-laws, rules, awards and membership benefits. KHAR might have some of the same people involved as KMA, but they are different entities.
2. Yes, since KHAR is a seperate entity and inspect and registry horses differently than KMA, your KMA or SMKR or non-registered horse would have to go through the KHAR proceedures. Our inspection scoring is more on conformation with break-down for conformation deviations such as buck kneed (over at the knee), pigeon toed, steep shoulder, short neck, long body, etc. Each part of the horse is evaluated and scored. Deviations from the ideal (eg. medium neck) have a set number of points deducted. A long neck that doesn't match the body and is obviously long will get points taken off as will a overly short neck. All these conformation traits relate to how confortable a horse is to ride. Secondary conformation traits are also scored and relate to Kiger characteristics (deep chest, tipped ears, low to medium set tail, etc.) These are scored but not as heavily as the basic horse conformation. Then finally markings is evaluated. We don't critisize white as much as KMA nor do we make it manatory for bays and "blacks" to have a full prominant dorsal.
2. Continued. KHAR does not have access to KMA registration information beyond the published studbook. Since our scoring is based on 80 points and is designed differently, we can't just bring your horse across with his "old" score. One thing that previously KMA registered horses will benefit from is that the KMA prints full pedigrees on the KMA registration certificate and we can trace back to freezebranded horses from there. Members with horses from other registries might have difficultly in getting freezebrands on ancestry in the past. However, we are hoping that ALL registries will assist their members in providing the necessary pedigree information.
3. Well, it depends. Some registries might not register the offspring due to their own By-laws, rules or policies.
4. Every organization has some sort of bickering amongst members, unfortunately. I think it boils down to human nature. I would hope that the disagreements don't turn out to be wars. The BOD does have a code of ethics. I would hope that this organization can approach each problem with open minds, fair intentions and mature attitudes.
Jillian McIntosh
--------------------------------------------------------------
Karisma Kigers
Home of
Kiger"s Cherokee Diamond
Kiger Dunsmuir
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Chiger
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8#
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Rank:none
Score:99
Posts:99
Registered:02/19/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/13/2007 7:16 AM)
Wow...that was a fast reply. As you were writing...my phone was ringing. It was Betty. lol. Talk about swift and speedy service with getting questions answered!!!!! And thank you both for being so professional about it.
Since I do not know much about the Kiger breed, but I love my Chiger to the hilt, I don't think I would be a suitable candidate for any sort of Director position or the like.
My skills are in Administration. Office/Business management. Marketing. Marketing being my strongest point (well, I say that...cause I like marketing best of all out of the two...hee hee). I was told that you are meeting this weekend to go over things. I am completely booked this weekend. But I would love to have a talk with you when you can. Betty has my number.
Thanks,
Deb
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"Nothing is so strong as gentleness, and nothing so gentle as real strength." - Ralph W. Sockman
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cindy966
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9#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/14/2007 5:22 PM)
Does anyone know how many Kiger registries there are? I know there are at least 4 now but I think there are more. I cannot picture there will ever be only one, though I wish it were so. It seems we keep getting more rather than fewer.
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kigers4ever
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10#
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Rank:none
Score:5
Posts:5
From: Canada 
Registered:09/04/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/14/2007 6:06 PM)
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Spanish Sage Ranch
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11#
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Registered:02/24/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/14/2007 10:44 PM)
Hi all,
GOOD JOB WITH THE HISTORY AND THE PICS!! The public dissemination of that information helps everyone.
However, I have some questions, which I am going to post in the HISTORY CHANNEL section, so let's get a discussion on the real history of this breed going there!
Diane P.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish Sage Ranch
Quality Horses of Iberian Descent
SpanishSageRanch@earthlink.net
www.spanishsageranch.com
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IberianHorse
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12#
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Registered:08/02/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/18/2007 6:32 PM)
This new Kiger registry sounds like it will be able to supply a solution for the found horse issue! I hope this new registry floats! Good job all!
Kim
--------------------------------------------------------------
Preserving and promoting "The Originals"
The Barb: Horse of Antiquity
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numb butt
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13#
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Registered:02/07/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/18/2007 9:39 PM)
Reply to : IberianHorse
This new Kiger registry sounds like it will be able to supply a solution for the found horse issue! I hope this new registry floats! Good job all!Kim
I would make one note here with regards to the "found horse" issue. Up until the 1970s when the wild horse and burro law forced it upon them, BLM was not in the horse protection, preservation or management business, they were in the horse elimination business. When the astute and forward thinking Ron Harding and others at the Burns BLM office recognized the phenotypic characteristics of the Iberian type in some of the horses being rounded up, it was decided to set these unique animals aside. These were the remaining pockets of a once more plentiful type. They were and are known to exist in other areas and under various names. As will happen the reproductive isolation caused genetic differences due to allele loss and genetic drift. Add to this the feral horses and in some areas there is a varying degree of crossing. In Oregon and the Burns district the principal herd management area was Smyth Creek and East Kiger with Riddle coming on later. Smyth creek and Riddle were not originally cleared of indigenous horses in prep for the Iberian type introduction. A small number of original animals were located and the population was started. Initially there was great concern about inbreeding and genetic bottleneck due to small numbers. Additional animals of phenotypic type were brought in, this was later stopped as testing at the time indicated there wasn't a problem. As numbers exceeded the AML there were gathers and adoption, excess and non typical animals were removed and the best were to be returned. This means that those colors and non Iberian conformation horses were removed. It came to be that Ron realized that in a sense a breed was being formed. He contacted some horse interested people and floated the idea, BLM is not in the horse breed or breeding business, the law limits what they can do in that respect, this resulted in the creation of the KMA. It was the public response to the Color, Conformation and Mind of these animals that created value in them and the best were coming off of the Kiger HMA resulting in the public calling them Kigers. The BLM does not adopt Kigers, they adopt out excess horses from the HMAs they manage, one of which is Kiger HMA. Riddle was not cleared out in mass so it took years of gathering to reduce the numbers of non Iberian type animals from the HMA. The standards for a horse on Riddle were different than those for management of Kiger HMA until 1996 when both management plans were the same. We see the difference in the animals that come off of the HMA. In an effort to protect the horse for the future the Kiger HMA is an ACEC (Area of Critical Environmental Concern). The horse is included in that document along with the management plan for their conformation and color. The KMA embraced the management plan as their Standard of Perfection. Owing to the fact that non standard animals were being adopted out from these HMAs an inspection process to promote the upgrading and preserving the genetic type was instituted. When DNA testing came to be it was instituted . This protects the registry, breeder and buyer that the pedigree is as stated. Originally the numbers of high quality Iberian Types were not available for the private breeding programs and there was a decision to examine the genetic stock at other gathers that demonstrated the same phenotypic characteristics. I wont go into the politics but the records show that the principal antagonists of today were involved on the same side (pro). The decision made biological sense at the time as did the requirement of producing high quality type offspring that scored in the breeding category. Much grousing goes on fixated on locations. People borders, HMAs, Private property lines are man made political entities and to wildlife meaningless. A three wire barbed fence for cattle will not always stop cattle, Elk, Deer, or Horses. Biological isolation is caused by suitable habitat, Geography, water, feed and reproductive access to a mate. Political boundaries are ever changing while Rivers or Mountain ranges are relatively constant. In the 1850s there were estimated to be 6,000,000 wild horses in the US. In the West the Iberian type had moved North from the Spanish conquered lands, long before the horses from the East moved West(Trotters, Thoroughbreds, Drafts etc etc etc). So the settlers encountered these horses when they moved West. Some of the Indian tribes had adopted a horse culture which was well established by the time of Westward expansion. Fencing, farming,cattle ranching, war needs and garment industry resulted in a history of elimination of the "Wild" horse from the land to the degree that the oldest most primitive types were isolated in areas to difficult for man to eliminate them from. Beattys Butte was not and is not the only location where these animals found refuge. Our Oregon herd is special for the extraordinary luck of having been recognized by a very singular man at a time that was in flux so they were protected. It does not mean they are the only genetic stock. At some point in the future if and when genetic testing indicates the need the other genetic stocks will have to be canvased for individuals that do meet the "Type" for introduction. When that happens heavy reliance on culling would be mandatory to protect the TYPE. Those not up to standards would have to be eliminated and like in the beginning the parents removes as well while those that breed to standard get to contribute. Here again those culls will be up for adoption because the BLM is not in the Breed business. Regardless of where one stamds on the issues that cause so much negative, slanderous and liablous bile to be spouted. If we do not put the BS aside and focus on the horse we will lose the horse from the Wild. It is the policy of the KHAR to keep out of this divisive, destructive, political rhetoric. It does not serve the horse or the public perception of those involved with the horse.
Not all in the government are in favor of the Wild Horse or the "Kiger". Note to all, Mr McFadden (BLM) horse program manager)feels the need to use birth control chemistry on the horses including Kiger. He uses the planned burn and loss of feed to be the reasoning but his arguments while sounding legitimate on the surface do not make rational biological sense. Please one and all contact the Burns office and request to be put on the mailing least for all EAs that affect the Wild horse. Tell him your lack of support for any use of the birth control chemicals on the Kiger Type horse of Kiger and Riddle HMA.
Not aimed at you KIM. I just have to bring out the truth of this non issue.
Thank you for your post and I hope support.
Norm (edited to correct spelling and grammatical errors. NM)
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IberianHorse
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14#
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Registered:08/02/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/19/2007 8:03 PM)
Reply to : numb butt
I would make one note here with regards to the "found horse" issue. Up until the 1970s when the wild horse and burro law forced it upon them, BLM was not in the horse protection, preservation or management business, they were in the horse elimination business. When the astute and forward thinking Ron Harding and others at the Burns BLM office recognized the phenotypic characteristics of the Iberian type in some of the horses being rounded up, it was decided to set these unique animals aside. These were the remaining pockets of a once more plentiful type. They were and are known to exist in
Many know I dont own Kigers. Kigers are what introduced me to the Mustang world however. I think I am one of many that backed out of getting a Kiger due to the political strife with the breed. I nearly got one in 2001, but backed out due to the breeders that this particular horse would come from. I still have her pictures 
I understand what you are saying. It does make perfect sense. If a group of horses that the BLM believed were Spanish type horses that were on one HMA and moved to these new HMA's why cant there also be Spanish type horses found elsewhere and also be put on the HMA's and called Kiger. If the goal is tp preserve the Oregon wild Spanish horse, then by collecting all of the horses thought to be Spanish from the Oregon wilderness and placed on Kiger and Riddle or if they were adopted out, put them in the Oregon Spanish type Mustang breeding progam aka Kiger breeding program. Is that what you mean? I do have one question in regards to this though. If the Kiger breeders are out to save a nucleous of Spanish horses found in Oregon and called Kiger, then why were Sulphur horses (two that I know of) from Utah brought in to the breeding program? (Honest question, no hard feelings or irriation attached!) I dont care if they were actually bred or not. Just curious as to why they were brought in. I do know that one was gelded and the other does have registered KMA offspring. It would make sense to do this if the goal was to preserve the wild Spanish type found in the American West, but as far as I know, this wasnt the goal. Is the KHAR recognizing these horses and their offspring or is the KHAR sticking to wild Oregon Spanish type horses? Also, is the Appendix catagory in place for those folks with an issue with "found horses" (honestly, ALL Kigers would be found horses if you want to get technical!) if the goal is to save the wild Spanish type horses found in Oregon that seem to now only be believed to exist on Kiger and Riddle?
Also, I am not affiliated with any of the Mustang registries. I am a member of the International Society of the Preservation of the Barb Horse and am the PR lady (PR for promotions! I LOVE marketing and design!!)
Thank you for your response. I am excited to get some good answers!
Kim
P.S. Enjoyed the old photos of the Kigers. My favorite profiles so far are these two fillies.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Preserving and promoting "The Originals"
The Barb: Horse of Antiquity
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Spanish Sage Ranch
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15#
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Registered:02/24/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/20/2007 12:44 AM)
"A small number of original animals were located and the population was started. Initially there was great concern about inbreeding and genetic bottleneck due to small numbers. Additional animals of phenotypic type were brought in, this was later stopped as testing at the time indicated there wasn't a problem.......Originally the numbers of high quality Iberian Types were not available for the private breeding programs and there was a decision to examine the genetic stock at other gathers that demonstrated the same phenotypic characteristics. "
Basically, from how I have always understood it, the horses from other HMAs that fulfilled the same requirements as were used to initially select which horses were the "spanish mustangs" were included in with the HMAs, and also offered directly to private adopters, because of a concern for genetic diversity and preservation of the true original type.
I would offer that the new registry then change its nomenclature from calling these horses the "Kiger-like" horses and call them "Genetic Diversity" horses, adding a GD on their certificate, if they think that this needs to be included. That designation seems to me to be the most fair, the most descriptive of the horses, and includes a reason for their addition as Kigers, for the information of those who do not want to get entrenched in the fighting.
Diane P.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish Sage Ranch
Quality Horses of Iberian Descent
SpanishSageRanch@earthlink.net
www.spanishsageranch.com
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numb butt
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16#
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Registered:02/07/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/20/2007 3:58 AM)
Just spent the weekend taking an interview with Ron Harding and meeting with BLM. Will be putting together a transcript of the interview, sending it to Ron for approval then posting it. The recording will be put to DVD and kept as part of the KHAR archives. We are filing about 14 additional Freedom of information act requests to various BLM offices. This is a lengthy and expensive process. Once we get the documents we confer with Ron to see if we got the complete record, study and scan the records. They will be posted once the review and scan are complete. We do this for the education of all and to allow the truth to be presented with out bias or omission.
Norm
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idahomustanger
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17#
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Registered:09/10/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:02/23/2007 1:55 AM)
I am anxious to read the information that you will be posting....It will be nice to read the actual documents and get the actual facts and not rely on hearsay as has been the case for so long.
I appreciate you taking the time to do this...I know it has to be extremely time consuming!! Thank you in advance!
Nancy in Idaho
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