DianneC
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1#
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Registered:09/04/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/16/2006 5:52 PM)
Sounds like your trainer is giving you good advice. I was taught that you release at the right thought. Its like having a conversation through the reins just like you would have with a lead rope and halter. First standing still you pick up a light feel and ask "Can you drop your head?" At the first thought of the right answer you give a full release saying "Yes, that's right". When that is solid then you pick up a light feel again at the walk and ask for their head to drop. Once you have that solid you hold it patiently until they stop their feet. Then you ask for them to stop their feet and drop their head. But the real stop should come from your seat so you are giving that cue at the same time. The other stop is the one rein stop where you slide your hand down the rein and pick up their nose and bring it to your knee while applying pressure with the inside leg behind the girth so they step under with the inside hind. As soon as they step under you rlease the leg. As soon as they stop their feet you give a full release. This is really handy for all sorts of things later and is used by most natural horsemanship trainers I've seen in colt starting. Until you have the stop established and they are comfortable at the walk trot I'd wait for the canter, although I know some advanced trainers want it all the first ride. Most first canters come from a very fast trot.
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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EquQuest
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2#
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Rank:none
Score:26
Posts:26
Registered:01/11/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/17/2006 12:01 AM)
Nice to get an update on you and your colt. I am not sure of your confidence or abilities, so you will need to take what you can from this relpy!
I would really work on him getting forward without help. There are a few reasons he may be hesitant. First, laziness, which is rare in Kigers! I doubt that would be your issue. More than likely, he is still hesitant and not fully prepared for what you are asking. You need to be able to drive him from the saddle, or get a system to asking him to go with a partner on the ground to reinforce what you want. Ask him to go from the saddle, then have your ground person help until he goes - do this until he goes without the aide from the helper - in the same session. Don't quit and figure you will work on it more tomarrow.
Make sure you are not using two legs at the same time to ask him to go. This elevates the rib cage and actually stops a horse......they learn to go through repitition, if this is what you choose to do, but I would alternate my legs, then add a driving with the lead rope over your hip to behind his saddle. MAKE SURE he is used to this on the ground first so he can transfer it. Start out by tapping slowly, then increasing.
After you both get comfortable with that, he needs to understand the difference between consistant pressure and rythmatic pressure. you want him to respond with consistant aides, and use rythmatic aides to reinforce what you are asking. The key is, when you have to go to rythmatic pressure, you must double his speed. Meaning, if you use consistant pressure to ask him to walk and he does not respond, when you have to drive him (rythmatic pressure), you must ask him to walk out faster or trot. Just getting him to walk at that point will not motivate him to go with consistant pressure - or your original aide. Agian, keep working on this until you can get the response you want by using your first aide. Really, you should work on it until you get 3-5 in a row without opposition and without hesitation.
As far as the bit, I would remove it until you get good forward. You can be creating an issue by adding more things for him to deal with and get in the way of forward. You need to get your three gaits, plus stops, backups and turns before the bit work.
Stay away from any and all "soft feel" until you have control of the feet in all three gaits and in any direction. You can teach a horse to rubber neck and when you pull the head around, the feet still do what they want....trust me - I have done it! You want the reins to stay connected to his feet for awhile - unless you are very confident and know how to ask just for enough softness without getting over flexing.
You also don't want to bend a horse past his own shoulder unless you need control, as in a disengagement of the hindquarter. By overflexing laterally, you teach them to bend at the base of the neck, suck the neck into the shoulder and/or not break properly at the poll (they stay stiff in the poll and just bend the nose around because they physically can't do that much bend properly).
When you do use the bit, be sure to use only one rein at a time and not be asking for vertical flexion with two reins for quite awhile. You want lateral roundess first, before vertical (meaning tail to nose). Just getting a horse to bend his head down is of no benefit if the body is not properly prepared and the mind is willing to give.
As far as the canter, Dianne makes a good point that first canters come from a very fast trot. You want to trot so fast, he has to canter to keep up with you. Also, make sure you are just working on the TRANSITION to the canter, not on the actual canter at first. Don't ask him to stay in the canter until he transitions nicely and comfortably and can come down to a relaxed trot afterwards - not a big, fast trot. Rub him down to a trot, try not to use the rein. If you must use rein, just bend his head slightly inside until he trots, then release and let him move off straight. When you are asking for the canter, your inside hip is open and slightly forward to give his body somewhere to go. This automatically lowers and puts some weight into your outside hip, which asks the outside hind leg to come under and push off into a canter. Once he makes that transition, straighten your hips and even your weight to encourage the trot. Relax and wait on him....
One more thought to chew on.......legs without hand and hand without leg.
Never use the two at the same time.
Would love to continue this further if you like!
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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cindy966
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3#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/17/2006 5:11 AM)
I have to reread all this. Thanks and keep it coming. I did the rubber neck thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was just trying to figure out what I did today and you described it. I'm using spurs and he is more forward now. Much better. Can still do better but a big improvement and I really didn't use them all that vigorously. Could be I was too hesitant with my legs at the start. In general I'm a timid rider but getting more confident. Fortunately this horse is really laid back. We had a little "clinic" the other day and the new term for comparison is the question, "is he as laid back as Zory". At first I was having trouble keeping him on the rail in the round pen, especially when asking to trot. If I used leg first for movement and then after moving used short pressure/releases on the rein it got pretty good. Especially today was a big improvement in that way. My instructor is 1 1/2 hrs away so we don't get together real often. A lot of this is by e-mail so what you folks are saying is very helpful. Sometimes people say the same thing in different ways and something will click. I'll post more after I digest this and work with him some more. Add things when you think of it. Thanks again.
oh, also-sometimes people say opposite things. I'll just think about them and then use what seems to fit best for me (or if big I'll defer to my instructor). Hope nobody gets offended if I skip part of how they do things. I seem to be pulling stuff from everyone that helps, at least that was the case with the "first ride" scenario.
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rubymountainkigers
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4#
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Registered:10/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/17/2006 10:53 PM)
Reply to : cindy966
Cindy,
First off I would like to applaud you for looking at different approaches and figuring out what works best for you and your horse. Adjusting to fit the situation and doing what works best for the given horse is the essence of true horsemanship. Each horse is different and each situation will vary as well within the moment so it's essential to listen to your horse. If you listen they'll tell you. Sometimes you have to offer it up several times in slightly different ways to get your timing and feel correct and to communicate effectively with your horse. If your horse is better at what your working on and calmer at the end than before you were successful. Don't forget to reward the slightest of try. Expect much, accept the smallest effort, and praise often. Also break it down into really small steps, perhaps smaller than you'd originally think and build upon each successful step.Horses are not only more sensitive than we think,they are more sensitive than we can ever think. However, they pick up on really small subtleties and can sometimes get confused if your not clear because of this. Always keep in mind that it takes the time it takes, poco y poco (little by little) and la manana (if not today tommorrow). Don't forget to end on a good note and give them adequate time to soak on the lesson.
With that said I agree with the contents of most of the posts, with the exception of not using soft feel in the beginning. Soft feel is something you should be working on from the beginning of your work in the halter at the least and preferably from the first at liberty session in the round pen. To think that soft feel and directing the feet do not go hand in hand is to misapply or not truly understand soft feel. The feet should be connected to the rein, seat and leg aids from the mind of the human through the mind of the horse. Your fingers should go down to their feet. I agree that the horse shouldn't rubberneck. However soft feel and the lightness of response to your aids should have been well established from your ground work so that you can move each foot independently in the desired direction in response to your aids. Soft feel also includes flexion of the jaw or ramenar (sp.) as described by Baucher in his second method. For a good description read Jean Claude Racinet's "Another Horsemanship" and "Racinet Explains Baucher". Baucher's manuscripts of his first two methods are also available. Also read Bill Dorrance's "True Horsemanship Through Feel" for descriptions on the various descriptions of soft feel and it's applications. It is probably the most straight forward of the texts.
Anyway one thing that came to mind when you say he isn't moving forward well is are you using your seat? What I am trying to ask is when he moves do you initially move your seat bones in a walking motion in time with his back? Then do you speed up and/or extend his walk by speeding up the walking motion of your seat? When you stop moving your seat does he stop? Can you ask him to trot by both driving him forward with rythmic motions of alternating legs and by asking him to trot with your seat from a setting trot before posting? Can you transition him downwards to a walk from the trot by walking with your seat?
One thing you can do with the snaffle if he sulls up and stops is use the snaffle to tilt his nose over one foot then the other until he moves his feet in any direction, get movement first then ask for direction, then release pressure from the bit and walk with your seat. At this point if you need to bring up the life in him you can use your legs in combination with your seat. This is where legs without hands and hands without legs comes into play.
Anyway that's probably enough for you to get started and plenty to soak on This is a great topic though, let's keep it going. If you have any specific questions or anything that needs clarification that helps me know what would be useful for me to write about. I can't be there to see what happens before what happens happens so that makes it hard for me. All I can do is throw out some ideas and hopefully when you present them to your horse one will be the answer you were looking for in that situation.
Tim
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Tim Westfall
Let your idea become their idea.
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EquQuest
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5#
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Rank:none
Score:26
Posts:26
Registered:01/11/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 2:25 AM)
This lends to a good discussion regarding "soft feel"...many people have many different interpretations or meanings behind it. On RFD, you can see many who take the head completely around to the knee laterally and the nose to basically the chest vertically and call that a "give" or softness. From a bodyworking standpoint it is a nightmare to the damage it does to the muscle and skeletal system, especially on a young horse. There is a proper way to do flexions, and to me this needs to be found in the old dressage masters texts, such as Baucher, L'Hotte and modern day masters; Racinet and Karl.
The problem with defining SF (soft feel), is dependant on to whom you are speaking to. To me, SF is a state of mind in the horse to where they travel in lightness and each request from the rider is received and excepted in willingness. To someone just starting out down this path, SF may mean when they pick up the rein the horse does not yank it out of their hand or lean on their leg. The first senerio can be difficult if the mind is not in tune with cooperating with the rider; the second can help a horse get in tune. So I suppose there will be different levels with obvious training levels to take into consideration.
It is difficult to teach many people SF, especially if they have had years of riding with leaning on the horses' mouth or grabbing on the reins for safety and comfort. This is where learning first liberty, then on line work is so beneficial to the human. It teaches them to slow down and notice all the little things and be able to release or reward them. At first the release may be a letting go of the rope, later on it can be an opening of the fingers on the rein.
The skeleton we follow is Feet, Softness then Attitude, in that order. Once you get the feet working, the softness comes then the attitude makes changes. It is quite simple really. People get too concentrated on the horse being soft on the rein, when they don't know where the feet are or have the horses forward energy enough to accomplish anything more than the horse breaking behind the poll and getting BTV (behind the vertical) - which definately means the hind end and back have no engagement. Most people also get the SF before the horse has good energy, and then they are holding the head and asking for forward without a release of the rein.....you can ask for SF before you move, release your fingers, ask the horse to go, then reask for SF. But you must be aware of that first. You must be aware of your horses' physical development, and if you are asking for too much SF, then forward, the horse will compensate in their body somewhere else (like sucking the neck into the shoulders or dropping the back away or duck paddling the hind legs) - then you have habits you must work hard to change at a later date....IF you recognize it has even happened!
Many people way over ask for that SF and the horse learns very quickly to use it as an avoidence. Proper flexion in the horse in not head down and tucked in......proper flexion is head up and hanging from the poll, which comes from a lightening of the forehand and a lowering of the hind. When you come at it from that angle, the head places itself for balance.
These can be the dangers of SF too early. This does not mean that when I take hold of the rope on the first ride, I don't want a young horse to come with it and not pull - I surely do. But, it is not any more important than the feet coming without dropping a shoulder or throwing a hip out and cutting your energy in half.
These concepts take years to understand and even more to master...a knowledge of what the feet are doing, what the body is doing, how to be effective in seat and weight aides; biomechanics and conditioning; how to influence or hinder a movement - well, really it is a lifetime of learning! Then you have to have the right horse under you! The masters say it takes the first 6 months of training to know the horses apptitude and trainability. Then it takes another 18 months to know if that horse will be able to be developed past mid-level achievements, based on physical and mental limitations.
I suppose it all boils down to what your goals are. If you want to be able to tuck your horses head in make your friends say Oh, Ahhh that is one thing. And that is what I see most people fall into the trap of - present company excluded of course!
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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cindy966
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6#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 4:18 AM)
These are wonderful posts, which I will be reviewing more than once, especially as time goes on. My goals at present for this particular horse are to be an excellent trail horse who will put his feet where I ask if I want to do that and secondly I'd like to do a little dressage, probably never to compete. One thing I DON'T want is a tight looking horse that is supposed to be in frame, like so many. But that is years away.
So, I'm currently in a dilemna. Remember I said that I've experienced rubbernecking? Here's what's happening. The horse is moving much better now in the round pen. And Tim, you are right about reminding me to use my body more to get movement. I'm trying to take it slow and once I get more speed at the trot I may try canter again. Right now we are walking and trotting and doing a few circles in the round pen. This is going well. HOWEVER, the problem is in my "arena". My arena has no sides and is basically a levelled area with an oak tree in the middle. So, we have a steep bank on one side and a drop on the far side. The colt has been out there a few times but as of yesterday we've got the rubbernecking thing going on out there. His head is, say, to the left and he pokes his right shoulder out and travels in the direction of the shoulder. I tried using my leg and spur up toward his shoulder to push it in but with no success. He drags me to a place where I feel unsafe and then gets a release, which is bad news. One time I didn't and he started up the steep bank. I put him back in the round pen and he tried this once but as soon as he came to the rail he turned and was real nice after that. I worked on circles a lot in the round pen after that and he follows his nose around just fine. I honestly think he is just bullying me. I don't believe it's a lack of understanding at all. The first couple rides out there were fine. My instructor is voting for spurring and getting tough. She's not let me down before but I'm pretty uncomfortable this time. She says if he starts to go over the side straighten him out and let him. All I know is I cannot let this continue. It is drastic what he is doing. He is basically out of control out there. I know you're going to think I'm missing something in the round pen and maybe it's true. I don't see it though. I'm thinking I may try to go out there and just get one step at a time if I can. This colt can be very pushy and when he was younger I had to wail on him to get some respect, which sounds bad but without that he was always trying to be in my space. He is quite good about it now (to me-not to non-horse people though) and usually has a soft look about him. I ended the session on a good note in the round pen after doing some nice circles but I'm really concerned about the arena situation.
Once I get through the current dilemna it would be fun to continue the conversation on soft feel. (I've been reading Bill's book quite a bit lately-which makes me think there's got to be a calmer way to deal with this. However he was pretty firm about not letting the horse be pushy) Obviously the connection between the rein and feet is not there.
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EquQuest
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7#
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Rank:none
Score:26
Posts:26
Registered:01/11/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 5:25 AM)
What you are experiencing with the rubber necking is frustrating and can be dangerous and I understand how you feel!
There are a few ways to deal with it, and I like to have 3-4 ways to address an issue, so the horse does not get too keen on one and each solution can be of a benefit at different times.
Go back to the roundpen and work on rein responsiblities. When you use your left rein toward your body - as an indirect - this must be connected to the outside hind foot. Depending on the degree of bend is depending on how far the foot should step out. Either to disengage and regain control, or step it out to be able to further supple the ribcage and engage the inside hind - I call this an elongated hindquarter. You move the hip out while the horse is still in cadence. You can practice this around some cones in a square and keep moving while turning through the hind. Of course, you will be using your inside seat and leg to help.
The next thing to do, is to ask the horse to turn from the front, using a direct rein. This is where your inside hand comes away from the horse (never backwards - kind of a half circle toward his nose and out); this asks the front inside leg to step over. Again, depending on how much you use that rein, is depending on how far that leg needs to go. You will be using your outside seat and leg forward to ask the shoulder to step through.
So, when he gives you this evasion you can do a few things. I am not sure of what you are asking him when he does it, but you can change your rein to get a hindquarter. This can be where you will come down the rein to the bit if you need to, lean over onto his shoulder and get his rumpas moving away from your inside leg. Leaning onto his shoulder will help you exagerate and put weight onto that leg to get it to stop. This is the best way to directly address the issue, which is the inside hind not stepping through and over to disengage. The hind end must also put in a big effort and move faster than the front. If you are comfortable, use your spur; or you can use the end of your lead or mecate with your outside hand to come over your body and spank his inside hip to speed it up.
He just may throw his head up and fall to the outside more - depends on where you guys are at at that moment. You then can ask for a sideways......if that is the way he wants to go, then let's go pal! Double his speed sideways and make it more difficult on him. Of course, I understand if he is headed for a drop off, you can't use this! But you can do it until he gets close to it, then straighten him for a second, double his speed and pick him right back up where you left him off at. By this time he may be facing another direction to where you can address it safely. If you let go, there must be a concequence for him every time. The only advantage we have over our horse is our brain, so get creative!
Follow his head with your hand. If he is coming way up with his head while he leaves to the outside, bring your hand higher than his mouth and hold until he wants to drop it and comes through.
The best to do is to recreate this as much as possible in a safer area so he gets to know you can deal with it and it won't work anymore. We personally don't like riding a young horse out of a round pen unless we can get a hindquarter 3-5 times in a row at a canter within a second and a half of asking. You also need to be able to get a hindquarter under some kind of stressful situation. He needs to know that no matter what, when you ask for control, he needs to give it. Maybe someone can flag you or have another horse in the pen - something to test him out before you go out of the roundpen. If you can't get grab his a## anytime you want, you don't have control of his feet and he knows it! You are right about him bullying you, so do what you know you can do and don't give him any doubt in your control.
You can also check in the roundpen on the ground how he is listening to the lead line. Get to where you can do hindquater, lateral and forequarters and I am sure it will show up here too, especially if you are asking for 3-5 in a row. Make sure he is doing it on his own, and you don't have to use the lead line to "make" him do it. It is easy to get into a habit of using to much rope and letting the horse lean on it and you do their job for them. Even if they are great at liberty, once you have a rope on, they need to learn how to give the same great responses within a confinement - even if that just means you holding onto the rope. Horses learn early in life to lean on halters and leads, so not being sure where he is with that, it may be of benefit to go back and get that great so he does not get set into doing it with your rein.
I have started over 300 colts and my hubby almost 1,000. This is stuff that I know works and I hope you can get some benefit from it! Just do what you can and don't be in a hurry to move on.
There is another drill I use that I call the tilt drill and that is using the outside rein in conjuction with having him bent to the inside. If you like I can explain this also...especially if the other stuff is not working.
Respect equals movement; movement equals flexion; and flexion equals collection.
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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rubymountainkigers
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8#
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Registered:10/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 7:03 AM)
Reply to : EquQuest
Excellent responses EquQuest.To be honest I'm not sure one lifetime is enough. However, the beauty of horsemanship is that no matter where you or your horse is at you can always go to a deeper level and improve on feel, timing,balance and overall lightness and finesse.No matter what point one is at it's a great point to start the journey.
Cindy a couple of questios for you. When you describe his pointing his shoulder out what are the positions of your hips and shoulders? It sounds like he has some resistance in him and is employing evasive techniques in which case you should follow EquQuests recommendations and make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult for him. These are very good techniques to use and are well described. One additional thing to take into consideration is that the movement of the horse generally reflects the posture of the rider. I'm wondering if you are inadvertantly dropping your hip or shoulder or cocking your hip at an angle where he points his shoulder out to compensate for balance. This is a common thing to see.
My advice is to be as firm as necessary and as gentle as possible. Too much force is only going to make the situation worse. To little firmness and he won't respect you and will take advantage of you. EquQuest gave you excellent advice when she said to mix things up so that he can't become to mechanical and predict what you're going to ask before you think of it and not listen to you. I would say based on your description of his personaliy he's likely to try this.
A couple other things to try is to work on riding straight lines at the walk and then the trot. Next have him back in a straight line one foot at a time first on the ground and then under saddle. Also in addition to circles or voltes ride some serpentines.
When riding remember to look directly at the point you want to ride to. Don't look down at the ground or through his ears at his poll. Point to the direction you want to go with your eyes and navel, which will position your seat bones correctly. Relax, take some deep breathes, release all tension in your abdomen and smile. Think of yourself as being suspended by your head with a straight line frim your head through your shoulder, hip and ankle. Tilt your chin up slightly don't have your head protruding forward or tilted down as you'll throw off your horses balance. You'll be amazed how your horse will respond. Then to get a deep seat relax your legs, think of them as limp noodles that hang down andh roll along the ground and ride in rythym with his back with your seat, eventually directing the speed and direction through your seat. I agree that you should try to get all of the things mentioned working well in the round pen before going back out into your arena.
You can use the slope of your arena to your advantage by backing him up the incline. This will help him to learn to get his hindquarters up underneath himself.
Let us know how your progressing.
Tim
What you are experiencing with the rubber necking is frustrating and can be dangerous and I understand how you feel!There are a few ways to deal with it, and I like to have 3-4 ways to address an issue, so the horse does not get too keen on one and each solution can be of a benefit at different times.Go back to the roundpen and work on rein responsiblities. When you use your left rein toward your body - as an indirect - this must be connected to the outside hind foot. Depending on the degree of bend is depending on how far the foot should step out. Either to disengage and regain control, or step it out to be able to further supple the ribcage and engage the inside hind - I call this an elongated hindquarter. You move the hip out while the horse is still in cadence. You can practice this around some cones in a square a
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Tim Westfall
Let your idea become their idea.
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DianneC
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9#
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Registered:09/04/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 7:47 AM)
Cindy, there are lots more experienced trainers than me on here and this is a great topic! Great reading and super advice! Couple of questions. I'm not sure if you are using direct or indirect rein when he starts rubbernecking? When he is drifting out with his shoulder or just before he starts are you holding pressure on your inside rein instead of using give and take or getting the bend and then gving a litttle release and let him hold it for a moment on his own? Its so easy to do and your trainer can check you on this. Letting him hold it on his own for a moment gives him the chance to find where he is supposed to be and you can correct him briefly as he needs it. Are you sitting balanced in the saddle or is your weight all on the outside or inside? The other thing that I found helpful on circles is to have the outside rein low and steady about where the concho is and do a little check, check, check on that rein as soon as the thought of drifting out occurs. Usually its because the horse is really not bent around your inside leg but is straight in its body with just its neck bent. I've used the outside rein when a horse kept heading my leg into the arena wall as well. Seems like you should pull harder on the inside rein to pull their nose toward the inside. But using the inside rein works just the opposite and makes them go to the outside when you do that, it steps the outside hind over as Michelle mentions. Ask your instructor to help you get softness and bend when you put your leg on his side. Its good to know that most horses reach a point in training where they challenge you. That doesn't make you or them bad, it just is a stage in growing up and needs to be worked through with firmness and praise for what he does do right.
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DianneC
There is no greater compliment than the trust of your horse.
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Kiger Cowboy
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10#
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Registered:01/05/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 10:43 AM)
Great advise so far, but it sure all sounds so technical and confusing! No doubt my version will sound just as confusing to some!
Cindy, sounds like you've got the classic start of a "runaway" on your hands. You pull on one rein, but the horse braces and moves faster forward and against it.
Round pens are great, but their darn sure overused. I think its great that you're already "outside" working things out. Some people could spend their whole life in a round pen, and still never have a broke horse!
Plain and simple, your colt needs to learn that you can take his head away from him whenever you want. Forget about feel, cues, and all that jazz at the start. You can do this in the round pen, or along a straight fence. You've probably heard me mention this before, but doubling is what this is called. Get him moving out in one direction, say in the round pen. When you're ready, pull, and I mean PULL on the rein closest to the fence. This work best at a lope, but it sounds to me like you'd be more comfortable doing it at a trot, and that will work fine, too. In fact its less complicated that way. OK- as hes trotting, say, to the left in a circle, PULL (hard) on the right rein. Sink your weight back as you do this, and push your weight hard into the right stirrup, relising the rein as soon as he starts to turn. As he starts to turn, slap him hard with your left leg in the shoulder, and as he comes straight, scare him with your quirt, lead line, reins, saddle strings, (whatever) just make him move out fast back the way he came. Do this both ways a couple times, but not too much- it can be hard on his pride. However, pretty soon he learns that you mean business when you offer that rein.
After a couple times on each side, make him do figure eights (circles are over- rated, at least for the really green horse). Really try to make the most perfect figure eights you can. Use your weight in the stirrups a lot in the turns (right stirrup "pulls" him to the right, and vise/versa) You'll be suprised at how hard he tries to move back under you! Then, and this is the most important part, then take him out of the round pen and MAKE him do all of this in the open!
Remember, theres no such thing as "soft feel" in a runnaway. Soft feel comes after he respects you and your signals through the reins. It takes a little while.
Buena suerta,
Brian
Reply to : DianneC
Cindy, there are lots more experienced trainers than me on here and this is a great topic! Great reading and super advice! Couple of questions. I'm not sure if you are using direct or indirect rein when he starts rubbernecking? When he is drifting out with his shoulder or just before he starts are you holding pressure on your inside rein instead of using give and take or getting the bend and then gving a litttle release and let him hold it for a moment on his own? Its so easy to do and your trainer can check you on this. Letting him hold it on his own for a moment gives him the chance to find where he is supposed to be and you can correct him briefly as he needs it. Are you sitting balanced in the saddle or is your weight all on the outside or inside? The other thing that I found helpful on circles is to have the outside rein low and steady about where the concho is and do a litt
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cindy966
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11#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 7:03 PM)
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! More later.
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rubymountainkigers
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12#
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Registered:10/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/18/2006 8:54 PM)
I just wanted to add briefly to the discussion on doubling. Doubling is a great technique if done properly and your timing is correct. If your going to double a horse though make sure you do it in a hackamore, I suppose you could do it in a rope halter as well but a hackamore would be more effective as it would excert more authority which is what your looking for here. Do not I repeat DO NOT double in the snaffle bit or any other bit for that matter, especially a spade. Drop back to the hackamore stage and freshen the horse up. For those folks unfamiliar with doubling there is a great description of the technique in Ed Connell's classic book "Hackamore Reinsman". This book is written in a very basic straight forward easy to understand style.
While I agree with Brian that a person can spend too much time in the round pen, and its true that some folks could spend their whole life in a round pen and never have a "broke" horse ,that probably holds true for no matter where they start their horses. Eventually your going to need to get out there and ride your horse in the open and hopefully do some work on them. Keep in mind that the round pen is only a tool and not an end to itself. That said I would like to add a word of caution. Where ever you train your horse you should make sure you don't get in above your skill level where you can't easily correct the horse by making the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult and get in a bad horse wreck. The round pen is great for giving that extra measure of control and hopefully safety for less confidant or experienced riders and green horses. It's easy to want to move ahead too fast and get yourself in a bad situation that you may not have the skill to get out of or to overexpose a young horse and create some major problems that take alot of work to set right again. As I have said before it's alot different if you are working cows for a living and have to draw from the rough string and by God get the job done that day or if your starting young horses for a living. However, for those folks who are doing it more as a recreational type of thing or who are just starting out I'd advise you to air on the side of caution. If you decide you do want to push it get someone experienced to help you out. As Brian mentioned once getting someone to help pony a green horse on it's first ride is worth it's weight in gold and is good from the safety standpoint. I don't reckon everyone out there aspires to be a bronc peeler. On the first few rides out of the corral it's probably a good idea to have a seasoned horse and rider go along with you. This will lend alot of confidance to the green horse and is good from the standpoint of your safety as well. Whatever you do should be safe for the horse and safe for you. I kind of expect everyone to push their limits but I hate to see someone get in above their skill level and get hurt bad.
Tim
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Tim Westfall
Let your idea become their idea.
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cindy966
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13#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/19/2006 5:27 AM)
YIPPEEE!!!!!!!!!! Here's a quick update for all you helpful people. (I printed this out today and studied it) I decided not to double after reading Tim's post until I check it out more. However, I think Brian's exactly right about respect and his post really helped me say, "I'm not taking any cr...". When I got in the round pen he actually did this evasion thing a little so I was able to practice. I also practiced one-rein stops (thank you Dianne for writing it out as I had not really practiced this in a long time. In the round pen this colt is very willing to stop.) My instructor had said I might have to use 2 reins-having an outside indirect rein for support to fix the problem. He accepted this ok but I know it's best to use one rein right now. Then I tried the maneuver of moving the hind leg over with the indirect rein. This was great. I don't know how much his hind leg moved but what I ended up doing was starting the turn and if he started pushing out through the shoulder I brought my hand in to a more indirect position until I felt his hindquarters free up. Then a release. After several of these he started to just follow his nose- and out in the open area too!!!! I also found it beneficial to hold the rein closer to the bit than I had been. That was good too. Also, when Brian said he needs to know I can move his head, I believe that was true too. He actually did a lot of chewing and there was not even a rodeo. I had a friend there with a whip to keep from going over the side but she only needed it once at the very start.
I find this fascinating how the different rein positions affect the feet. Now I'll be able to read Tim's info on my body position and such and think about that. When in a crisis I really couldn't focus on that.
Thanks SOOOO much everybody. Now I'm glad it happened as I'm learning a lot from it. Things usually do work out for the best. I was REALLY concerned about this one and it was rather anti-climatic, thank goodness.
Gotta go get some dinner.
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rubymountainkigers
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14#
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Registered:10/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/19/2006 5:19 PM)
Reply to : cindy966
Cindy,
An exercise you can try in the snaffle that is fairly similar to doubling in it's effect is to work your horse off of the wall. To do this employ the same technique your using now to take his head away and step his hindquarters over. First take him directly into the rail or wall and ask for him to change direction down the wall both ways. Once you can do this easily go parallel to the wall then turn him into the wall. Use your legs to bring up the life in him and take him down the wall with some speed, then turn him down the wall the opposite direction. Do this 4 or 5 times in a row then ride him straight out into the center of the arena and ride some serpentines. When your finished with these exercises let him soak on it. The next day I think you will see quite an improvement. It sounds like you are progresing nicely.
Tim
YIPPEEE!!!!!!!!!! Here's a quick update for all you helpful people.(I printed this out today and studied it) I decided not to double after reading Tim's post until I check it out more. However, I think Brian's exactly right about respect and his post really helped me say, "I'm not taking any cr...". When I got in the round pen he actually did this evasion thing a little so I was able to practice. I also practiced one-rein stops (thank you Dianne for writing it out as I had not really practiced this in a long time. In the round pen this colt is very willing to stop.) My instructor had said I might have to use 2 reins-having an outside indirect rein for support to fix the problem. He accepted this ok but I know it's best to use one rein right now. Then I tried the maneuver of moving the hind leg over with t
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Tim Westfall
Let your idea become their idea.
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cindy966
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15#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/19/2006 7:59 PM)
Tim, are you saying to use an indirect rein to turn him rather than leading him with a direct one, for this entire exercise?
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rubymountainkigers
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16#
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Registered:10/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/20/2006 3:45 AM)
Reply to : cindy966
Cindy,
For this exercise you are going to want to tilt his nose and lead him with your direct rein. Send in your request and then release as soon as he thinks about giving. At first you are going to have to over exaggerate the use of your rein aid by bringing it way out to the side and slighyly back. If he doesn't respond then firm up your request with a firm but smooth pull and a quick release. Eventually as he becomes lighter you will just barely lift your direct rein straight up. At the same time as you apply the rein aid also send in a request to move over the hindquarters with the inside of your calf. Don't use your heel or you'll throw of your balance and be out of position. Before you send in your request with your direct rein you can ask with you indirect rein so he gets used to this signal being what you will send him first when you wan't him to move his forehand over. You'll build on this later. However, you will want to enforce the request with your direct rein and your leg. Also open up your inside seat bone so you don't block him and point your outside hip towards the direction you want him to go.I hope that helps.
Tim
Tim, are you saying to use an indirect rein to turn him rather than leading him with a direct one, for this entire exercise?
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Tim Westfall
Let your idea become their idea.
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cindy966
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17#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/20/2006 5:05 AM)
Thanks Tim. I'll read this over. Next ride is Thursday. It ain't over yet. He started resisting again today in the "arena". I took him back to the round pen and beat his butt to move it over. Boy, he's never done such nice turns and had such energy! Then back to the arena and blah. He gets me intimidated at the edge there and he knows it. So I got off and lunged him around and beat his butt out. Then got back on and he did a few nice turns each way and I quit. I know I'll have to ride him through it as he's likely to try it again but I'll get my friend back to make sure we don't get hurt. It's totally deliberate. I tested him on the ground and Michelle, you are right. That needed more work too. So we are doing that as well. My Instructor (name is Lynn) knows this horse well. She says it will be a battle of the wills but after this one she expects he won't test as hard. I'm glad of that. I did tons of ground work with him. When I first asked him to cross a small drainage from our pond (really small) he didn't want to do it. It was the first time I'd asked him to go forward when I cued him. It took me about 6 hours to do it. (it required lots of beating on him) I'm sure somebody else could have gotten it quicker but that's what it took. It was broken up into 3 days and I would stop at as positive a spot as I could until the next time. After we got through that he never tested me hard like that again on the ground. That was well over a year ago. Trailer loading was a piece of cake. (straight load 2 horse) I have this gut feeling this is a similar thing. I happened to watch the Dog Whisperer last night. I don't have a dog. It was the same stuff though.
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EquQuest
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18#
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Rank:none
Score:26
Posts:26
Registered:01/11/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/20/2006 5:20 AM)
Cesar Millan (the Dog Whisperer) is FANTASTIC!!!!!! Not only do we watch him all the time and remark on how similar "common sense" is...but I recommened my students to watch too. It helps them relate on a different level the same things they may be going through with their horses. Animal behavior is so awesome to study!
I am glad you are getting some more confidence and taking care of things - good for you! Keep the updates coming!
___________________
Michelle Clarke
http://www.eququest.com/
http://www.ranchobayo.com/
http://www.extremedressage.com/
http://www.kigerquest.com/
http://www.naturaltack.com/
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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson
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cindy966
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19#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/20/2006 6:15 PM)
Animal behavior is interesting. My husband is having some staff problems at work. I told him he needs to be more like the Dog Whisperer! My conclusion of late is that all these techiniques you folks are giving me are wonderful and I will use many of them. Bottom line though, I have to be more like the Dog Whisperer. I can do it on the ground now but it's not natural and I have to consciously do it. The horse is WONDERFUl and respectful then. On his back, he knows I'm less confident (my first colt to ride-unchartered waters) and in particular in uncomfortable places. I'll get it!!!
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rubymountainkigers
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20#
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Registered:10/15/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/20/2006 10:01 PM)
Reply to : cindy966
Cindy,
I think you should try carrying a quirt or a dressage whip, whihever your more comfortable with when you take him out in the arena. I would recommend this over spurs as you'll be less likely to get your leg too far back and be out of balance. You can also maintain your seat better. Send in your request and if he doesn't honor it give him a quick pop with the quirt just behind your inside leg to disenguage his hind quarters them ask him to move off with your legs. You can be quite firm if necessary as long as your release is quick and you don't overdo it. One pop as soon as he starts to resist is usually all it takes and is fast enough that he will associate the action with his resistance and see the punishment as just and brought on by himself.Be sure to ask first, then get out of his way and let him do it first. If he offers up the slightest of try reward him. If he resists reinforce your request. Firm yet fair and consistent is what you need. After a few corrections where he see's you mean buisiness and he'll come around. You don't see these young geldings trying to boss around the lead mares. I can guarentee you their kicks hurt more than a pop with a quirt but they don't nag, they don't overdo it and they always send in a subtle warning first before they turn up the volume. I like to tell folks don't let your horse act like a human!
Speaking of human behavior I think Ray Hunt's book "Think Harmony With Horses" is probably the best human psychology book ever written. The principles are universal! Just substitute human for horse and expect to get a little less and expect to have to offer up alot more to get it and it seems to work out fairly good. As Ray always say's "The human is full of opinions. The horse is the truth!"
One final note. Since he's giving you trouble over near that edge because he thinks he can get away with it I'd set him up to succed by taking him over there. Get some help if it makes you feel more comfortable. Then take him over there and ask him to do the right thing. If he does it great, if not this is the time to firm up and give him a nice pop. He may startle as he won't be expecting it from you. He's expecting is for you to be afraid and let him get above you in the pecking order so he can do what he wants instead of what your asking him. In humans I'd call this game playing bullying or manipulation. When he tests you reiforce what you asked him to do then ask him to move out and get on with things like nothing ever happened. Then take him back and do it over until he responds without resistance. When you get this you can stop for that session and let him soak on it. You can also ask him to do something he knows how to do and is good at before you end the session to boast his confidance then quit. Just don't keep drilling on the same thing once you get that nice try.
Tim
imal behavior is interesting. My husband is having some staff problems at work. I told him he needs to be more like the Dog Whisperer! My conclusion of late is that all these techiniques you folks are giving me are wonderful and I will use many of them. Bottom line though, I have to be more like the Dog Whisperer. I can do it on the ground now but it's not natural and I have to consciously do it. The horse is WONDERFUl and respectful then. On his back, he knows I'm less confident (my first colt to ride-unchartered waters) and in particular in uncomfortable places. I'll get it!!!
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Tim Westfall
Let your idea become their idea.
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Kiger Cowboy
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21#
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Registered:01/05/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/21/2006 9:40 AM)
Tim's thrown out some really great stuff in the last couple posts.
I was thinking about that "edge", too, maybe in a different way.... How steep is it, and how far down? If it was me and one of my colts, I'd push him over- in the country where I run cattle he's gonna have to do that sometime- and I'd like to know right off the bat how he's gonna handle himself on steep ground. I've had to bail off some damn near vertical stuff, and found that these Kigers do really well. However-- PLEASE don't do this if it looks uncomfortable to you! If you have the SLIGHTEST hesitation, you could trip him up and get in a wreck! I've always just felt comfortable going down steep stuff on a good horse- in fact- I'd rather slide down a steep bank on a good horse than go up one!! But that's just me... But- if it ain't that bad, push him over and that will really throw him a curve ball!!
Brian
Reply to : rubymountainkigers
Reply to : cindy966Cindy,I think you should try carrying a quirt or a dressage whip, whihever your more comfortable with when you take him out in the arena. I would recommend this over spurs as you'll be less likely to get your leg too far back and be out of balance. You can also maintain your seat better. Send in your request and if he doesn't honor it give him a quick pop with the quirt just behind your inside leg to disenguage his hind quarters them ask him to move off with your legs. You can be quite firm if necessary as long as your release is quick and you don't overdo it. One pop as soon as he starts to resist is usually all it takes and is fast enough that he will associate the action with his resistance and see the punishment as just and brought on by himself.Be sure to ask first, then get out of his way and
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cindy966
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22#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/21/2006 3:46 PM)
Brian-Lynn said that too, that he might just have to go over it. I'll take a picture of it and put it on here. It's steep but not so bad a person couldn't do it. What concerns me about it is that it is really dry now so hard and crumbly with some old straw on it from last winter when we did the cut there to keep it from eroding. It might be slippery. On his own he'd do it no problem. If he goes straight down it he could do it. I don't know if I could keep him straight though. And I don't know how balanced he is with weight yet but he's getting stronger. I have a plan. Yes, a crop of some kind is involved. I'll let you know what I do and how it goes. I'll get this-it's getting closer. A stronger more experienced person would have fixed it already. But what I do have in my favor is persistance. I won't give up. With crossing that little drainage when he was a weanling, it took me 6 hrs where somebody else maybe it would have taken 1, but I don't give up and he recognized that.
I think he's gonna be really good on steep stuff. I've watched him "ski" down things when he started to slide. I've known of horses that will scramble instead. I've also noticed that the better riders do prefer downhill on steep hills.
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cindy966
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23#
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Rank:none
Score:142
Posts:142
Registered:02/18/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:06/22/2006 3:16 AM)
Update: I had plans A,B &C this time. Plan A was pretty much what Tim last wrote. Start him by the edge, use the crop etc etc. I never even got to plan A. I got to the edge, he walked away and never tried to drag me back again. There was a person there but I don't think she had anything to do with it. Interesting. I've done more of the moving the hindquarters away on the ground since last time and I've been pretty strict about it. Possibly the lesson last time stuck. I started a little of turning him into the rail in the round pen. That might have helped. More of that to come for sure. Lynn says horses sense your intent. That's what she thinks happened. I'll be looking back over these posts. There is so much information here I'll be working on this for some time. Once I get this issue more solid I think I'll step back and work on forward and reread that stuff. Also the stuff about using the seat more. There is really a wealth of information on here. Maybe someday somebody should organize it and write a training book by Kiger owners and have the proceeds go to the KMA or to the BLM for the Kigers or something. I would like to see a thread about soft feel some time as that was getting interesting but truthfully, I've got more to think about than that right now. I'm more basic. I also wanted to comment on what Michelle said about the horse trainers on RFD TV and the low heads tucked to the chest. I'm a visual learner and I've had to stop watching some of those folks because it's not what I want to picture my horse doing. I still like Richard Winters a lot but he was starting a futurity horse right before he went off RFD and he was riding with that same style. They look to me like they are going to do a sommersault.
Here's a picture of the "arena". (pictures are fun) You can't tell very well how steep the bank is. Near the camera it is less steep as it meets a road up. He would go closer to the tree. You can ride around the right side of the tree. The tree sits down in a "well". (this is country style stuff-I don't think my "arena" is going to impress anybody! My husband wanted the tree saved as he's very earth conscious and it was hard for him to have the grading done)
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