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Title: Kigers as an Iberian/Spanish type
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Spanish Sage Ranch
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Registered: 02/24/2004
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(Date Posted:05/30/2006 4:35 PM)

I have been reading the discussions or rather, debates, on concerns that the Kiger 'Type" is falling by the wayside. I hope to have enough time to elaborate more later (I do have horses to feed and work to get to), but this has been of great concern to me. I started a thread a long time ago on one of the other Kiger boards and was surprized at the vehement denial that Kigers were preserved, originally, as an Iberian type of horse. In association with Hardy Oelke, recently I also wrote an article for the KMA's Focus on the issue of Spanish/Iberian type, and the mtDNA testing that some seem to rely on exclusively to declare Iberian type, and the flaw in that logic. I would recommend that people re-read that article. I can email it to those who do not get the Focus. And for those of you who like to make it seem like my concern is all about Sorraia types, let me tell you right now, it is not. In general, I have not seen that KMA has a great propensity towards allowing horses that are obviously not "typey" into the breeding category of the Association, but there are many other horses not registered with KMA that are clearly not typey, and they are still being bred. My response in part to the following questions, and to a question or two Cheryl Walsh asked is that I think two or three glaring characteristics of a non-typey "kiger" are a dished face, big, heavily muscled rump, and a flat croup. Jillian posted on the KMA forum the following questions, which I think might spark an interesting and productive discussion. 1) Do you feel that because a horse is from the wild (Kiger/Riddle) that it should be bred? 2) Do you think there is any trait or characteristic that should not be perpetuated in the Kiger breed? Diane

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Spanish Sage Ranch
Quality Horses of Iberian Descent
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www.spanishsageranch.com

DianneC
1# 



Registered:09/04/2002
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(Date Posted:05/30/2006 5:36 PM)

Reply to DianeP
1) Do you feel that because a horse is from the wild (Kiger/Riddle) that it should be bred?
Personally, I don't think any horse "deserves" to be bred and should be evaluated on its own merits after meeting the criteria of coming from the Kiger/Riddle herds.

2) Do you think there is any trait or characteristic that should not be perpetuated in the Kiger breed?
There are conformational traits common in Kigers that are generally recognized in horses as flaws including a long back or weak hip. Dr. Deb Bennett has some great books for reference. I'm not looking for a QH hip, just a hip that gives the horse enough "motor" so it can be ridden all day on a trail or cattle drive. A long back or weak hip isn't in the standard of perfection but I see it being accepted by some as standard.
But also I see horses being bred that do not have the Kiger mind, which is why most of us are here and what brings new people to the breed. Its not in the standard of perfection because it can't be measured but will cause me to cull a horse from my breeding program pronto.

I think that a horse should have to prove itself in a breeding program. Foals should be evaluated for a good mind, balance and conformational correctness. If the foal doesn't measure up then don't breed that combination again. If the foal from another stallion/mare still isn't GREAT then why breed that horse again? We are long past the need to breed horses just because its a Kiger, there are plenty of great horses out there being bred. I don't see a good way for the registry to manage this, but it will have a great effect on the future of the breed.

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DianneC

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EquQuest
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(Date Posted:06/04/2006 3:35 PM)

Great topic......

1) Do you feel that because a horse is from the wild (Kiger/Riddle) that it should be bred?

Definately not! That is a huge problem in the breed as far as I am concerned.


2) Do you think there is any trait or characteristic that should not be perpetuated in the Kiger breed?

Arab features for one - dished face, hooked ears, flat croup....weak back. Something else I have seen on quite a few Kigers is a low set neck, which can be more of a QH feature.

As far as a good disposition, that is a definate, but hard when dealing with some from the wild. Mares tend to have become crafty and very protective, which is a dificult trait on some to alter, especially if they are older. You really have to go by what they produce and that is a judgement call you need to make honestly when you have the first foal on the ground. Genetics should always prevail.

I am still continually surprised when I see mares (and stallions!) being bred that really are of no quality. I have seen foal after foal that perpetuates the bad faults a stallion has and yet it still gets bred. Mares that are either from the wild or are too unmanageable being bred just to breed.

The biggest issue I really belive is people breeding that are very uneducated on basic breeding and genetics. I think there should be a big campaign in this area. The breed is still young enough to turn around and quit producing mediocre stock that not much of the horse world is impressed with. It is a win win for everyone - breed the best stock to the best stock and the selling prices go up, the level of clientel goes up and the level of demand goes up......

Too many people view this as a "passion", and not a business. You can have both!

--------------------------------------------------------------
"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson

cindy966
3# 



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(Date Posted:06/04/2006 4:30 PM)

I am happy to hear you breeders taking this issue so seriously.  I posted quite a few things about this on the old KMA board.  When I was looking for a colt a few years back I had a hard time finding one with decent conformation.  After being on the Kiger boards for some time I would now know who to go to but before it was haphazzard (sp?).  Anyway, I have only owned a few horses in my life and learned about conformation in a "cram course" when I needed to buy a horse this last time.  Never did get it all.  But sadly I found out that I knew more about the subject than, I think I can safely say MOST of the breeders I met.  One (a Sulphur breeder) was so bad she was showing me a black 3 year old.  I was interested in a yearling.  I was trying to figure out why she was showing me the 3 yr old and how it related to the black yearling and she said, "oh, so you can see what a black one looks like when it's 3".  She was really excited about getting a new one she'd heard about because it was a color she didn't have yet.  I had a hard time getting photos from people that weren't just manes and tails.  I'd ask for a picture of legs and get one of the horse standing at a distance with a note "you can see the legs in this one."  So, I think there are a lot of people breeding horses that shouldn't be bred but I believe probably most of the time it is out of ignorance, not greed.  Then to add to this there are Spanish horse traits that Kiger breeders need to look for as well as just basic conformation and that makes the ideal stock more limited.  I say "hurray for you folks".   All I can do is try to encourage buyers to be more particular which can encourage breeders to be more particular. I also agree that people are going to be more likely to take notice of the breed if the horses representing it are more true to the standard for a Kiger.
EquQuest
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(Date Posted:06/05/2006 6:18 AM)

"I also agree that people are going to be more likely to take notice of the breed if the horses representing it are more true to the standard for a Kiger."

That would be great if the breed standard actually held true to a Spanish horse......

Really, WHAT is the standard??? The KMA website is acting funky, so I can't go and get their info to copy here, but SMKR is the following:

Kigers are short-coupled: they have a low tail-set, characteristic "hook-shaped" ears, and luxuriant manes and tails. The phenotype is that of a Spanish horse. A Kiger should be compact, with clean dense bone. The head profile is straight or slightly convex, not dished. The neck is set rather low to the shoulder: it is never a "pencil neck". Kigers have short cannons and heavy walled hooves that are exceptionally rugged. The hindquarter is well rounded and squarely set, but not heavily muscled.

Here is a link to the International Andalusian Lusitano Association:
Breed Standards

Here is a great site that will give you more than you ever wanted to know:
Spanish Horse Morphology

Happy Reading!!

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"Do not go where the Path may Lead. Go instead where there is no Path and leave a Trail." emerson

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Walsh
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Registered:09/05/2002
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(Date Posted:06/05/2006 7:58 AM)

STANDARD OF PERFECTION

Height: 13.2 to 15.2 Hands

CONFORMATION:Good saddle conformation.  In general, the Kiger Mustang should be compact, light to moderately muscled, smooth and stylish in appearance.

QUALITY:The Kiger Mustang should have clean, dense bone with sufficient substance, well developed joints and tendons, and with a fine coat.

TEMPERAMENT:The Kiger Mustang should be tractable, but with good spirit.

COLOR:Variations of the Dun Factor: Dun, Red Dun, Grulla, Bay, Black, Claybank, and Roan.

HEAD:Medium in size,  clean  cut  and tapering slightly from jaw to muzzle.  The profile side view can be straight, concave, or slightly bulged, as the Tarpan. Wide, clean cut lower jaw,  medium fine muzzle with small and firm lips and medium nostrils. Ears should be medium in length, hooked at the tips on the inside, set wide apart and carried alertly. Cobwebbing and masking are highly desirable.

NECK:Medium length, well crested, clean cut at the throatlatch,  smoothly jointed to the shoulder and deep at the point of the shoulder. Mane and foretop full and bi-colored. (Some may tend to be upright mane, Tarpan type.)

FOREHAND:Shoulders  of long  length  and at  45-50?nbsp; slope,   blending  into  smooth,  well defined,  but not too high withers.  The  withers  should be slightly higher than the point of the hip. Wither stripes, crosses, shadows, bars and stripes on chest and legs are highly desirable.

FORELEG:
Forelegs  should  be  moderately spaced with an inverted V appearance, when viewed from the front,  where they  connect to the chest.  Viewed from the front, the legs should be thin and must be straight;  viewed from the side,   legs should be wide and sinewy. Cannons short to medium, wide flat and free from muscling. Fetlock joint should not be round, but rather wide.  Pasterns should be clean and strong,  of medium length, the slope to correlate with the slope of the shoulder.  The hoof should be of medium size, round to oblong, with thick walls.  Kiger horses tend to be mule footed.

BARREL:The body conformation of the Kiger Mustang is distinctive, with chest of good depth and  with  short back,  broad  and moderately muscled.  The barrel,  oval, with well sprung ribs and full flank.  The  sternum  should not protrude.  Withers are well defined, but not prominent.  Dorsal stripe is mandatory with herringbone stripes desirable.

HIND:The  hind  legs  should be squarely set and so placed that the horse turns on his hindquarters with legs under the horse. The hips should be well rounded. Croup should be rounded gently with medium-low set tail, well carried.  The tail to be full with light colored guard hair.  Muscles in  the hip and thigh should be long and sinewy; not heavy as characterized in draft horses. The hocks should be wide, deep and clean. Viewed from the rear, the hind legs are usually closer at the hocks than at the fetlocks. Stripes on the lower legs are highly desirable.

CANNON:Short to medium, wide, flat with tendons standing well out from the bone and well defined.

PASTERN:The hind feet should resemble the forefeet and should be round, medium in size, smooth and dense.

HOOVESense, compact, recessed sole and frog, tending to be oblong or mule footed.

ACTION:Lively, light, tending toward higher than average front leg action. Some tend to be Paso gaited.

 
cindy966
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(Date Posted:06/07/2006 8:35 PM)

One thing I've always wondered about is that some Kigers gait.  Where is this thought to come from?  Since people get concerned about hip angle not being to "type" or a white sock or whatever, it would seem to me that either to gait or not gait should be part of the standard if people are wanting to be that particular.  I'm not bothered by it either way (have my own preferences) but that seems to me to be a pretty big inconsistancy (sp?) in the different horses.
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