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Title: downrate S56 or not???
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silasgreenback
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Rank:Regular Dodger

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From: United Kingdom
Registered: 20/09/2011
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(Date Posted:18/02/2012 10:05)

Hello everyone,

I am an intrepid Dodge owner, and am trying to keep within the law - i have a new type drivers license meaning i shouldn't drive anything over 3.5 tonnes and not tow more than 750kg

I need to move my (heavy) yurt village to and from events....

I am considering doing the towing B+E test and using my dodge to tow as much as i legally can with its old style taco (saving of £1400 on any other vehicle)

Question is - if i down grade my 5.6 ton dodge to a 3.5 ton, and fit out the (new) box as a camper, what would my new train weight be?? ie, what am i likely to be able to tow? Apparently despite the new laws (since dec '11) i wouldn't need an operators license as long as the unladen weight of my trailer was less than 1040 kg. ie, a 3.5 ton ivor williams trailer with cage on could be used (unladen weight of 1040), and the lorry itself would weigh in around say 3 ton, enabling me to carry a payload of what exactly on the trailer, bearing in mind i will be limited to the new plated train weight????

current train weight is 7500kg, unladen 2400kg.

has anyone ever had an operators license - are they really the nightmare that i am told they are???

thanks in advance Greg and everyone else!!!

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putting yurts up all over the uk, carrying them in my DODGE 50!!! Hooray!

mjamson
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:18/02/2012 11:11)

ive read and re read this a few times with many alterations.

ive heard different things about o licences, some say straight forward, some say impossible,

i reccomend  www.trucknetuk.com   they are friendly there and there is a section there for ownerdrivers, where you can get advice on olicences and such

best of luck, ill be interested in see how this progresses, got my own ideas on the licences and weights but dont want to write anything too wrong.

mike
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silasgreenback
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:18/02/2012 11:23)

 Thanks for the post Mike,

This is the most comprehensive post i have found regarding towing and the new laws, the bits near the bottom are the more recent,

http://www.yourroadrisk.co.uk/2009/01/30/towing-trailers-with-vehicles-and-the-law/comment-page-3/#comment-38253

i refer especially to the letter someone received from VOSA saying:

 "If carrying goods for hire or rewardyou add the “unladen” weight of the trailer to the grossplated weight of the vehicle and if the combination exceeds 3500kgs you will need an operator’s licence. If you are carrying only your own goods you will not require a licence if using a vehicle and trailer where the vehicle is less than 3500kgs gross plated weight and the trailer is less then 1020kgs unladen."

I am hoping that my down rated dodge will fall in the category of being a vehicle less than 3500kg gross plated, and as long as i am carrying my own goods (i will) and my trailer is less than 1020kg (you can get trailers that are only 600kg or so unladen that can carry heavy stuff, and so i should be well within this limit) = a legal dodge and mobile yurt village and home - fingers crossed.... hopefully as long as i get a taco for my transit, then that could tow aswell.....
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putting yurts up all over the uk, carrying them in my DODGE 50!!! Hooray!

chugg89
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RE:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:20/02/2012 05:24)

had to renew insurance a few weeks ago - premiums seem to have shot up in recent months and could not seem to find a reasonably priced single-vehicle policy for a commercial vehicle (over 3.5t) that didn't have a serious restriction on towing

been looking at current DVLA towing restrictions recently and found the info around to be anything but clear-cut, without re-reading and re-re-reading etc.

my understanding (having passed test in '91) is as long as your GTW is not exceeded and your trailer has the appropiate brakes (air over 3.5t), you can tow up to half your GTW

what i'm currently unsure about is whether a Dodge with air-over-hydraulic brakes can be used to tow a 5.5t trailer with air-operated brakes, and if so, what's involved (do not want to derail thread, just curious)

purchased a S46 and S56, both downrated to 3.5t by previous owners and both entitled to pull a fully-loaded 3.5t trailer (GTW 7000kg after downrating - have the plates/plating certificates here) so not much loss in overall pulling capacity, given the S46 was originally built with a 7100kg GTW

(don't know of anyone who has downrated a '50 below 3.5t)

my impression of OL's is they don't come cheap!

running a plated (over 3.5t) vehicle without an OL restricts load carrying to personal and not for hire/reward

(motorhomes over 3.5t can be tested as class-something, rather than plating at a VOSA station, but cannot carry any un-related items, i.e. goods)
(living vehicles over 3.5t can carry loads but need to be plated)


i'm currently looking for a 16' Ifor 3.5t dropside, preferably with mesh extensions - if you havn't got one yet, hopefully we wont end up fighting over the same one! currently on south coast so won't be going to the north for one
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it seemed like a good idea at the time

mum2b
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:21/02/2012 14:14)

if you want to tow a 6 ton trailor you want a 10 ton truck to be comfy.
to pull a 5.5 ton trailor with a dodge weighing 3.5 ton unladen is fuckin stupid.
you will rip the clutch out of it in no time you muppet and kill some one if you have to stop suddenly.
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Karrier
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:21/02/2012 16:50)

 I didn't think you could pull anything over 75% of the towing vehicles actual weight?
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chugg89
6# 



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Reply To mum2b
(Date Posted:23/02/2012 09:38)

Reply to mum2b (21/02/2012 14:14)

if you want to tow a 6 ton trailor you want a 10 ton truck to be comfy.
to pull a 5.5 ton trailor with a dodge weighing 3.5 ton unladen is fuckin stupid.
you will rip the clutch out of it in no time you muppet and kill some one if you have to stop suddenly.

alright dad! you may well be right but really just interested to know if it's possible to connect to trailer air brakes from an air-over-hydraulic system for starters

did you get another 24hr obscenities ban from you-tube? never said anything about attempting to pull a 5.5t trailer fully loaded without first loading/ballasting Dodge!

suspect the empty shell of the type below weigh no more than 2t with no internal fittings and would be unlikely to put more than 2t in one but at the moment, just curious likes




here's a plating certificate when downrated to 3.5t (100% towing capacity of 3500kg)



can't think of a reason why % allowance would change with weight increase but who really knows?!

from what i've read of DVLA etc. info available online, it's ambiguous at best - it's my understanding that it's upto weight of towing vehicle, within GTW and driving license limits but happy to be corrected :)

vehicles with more than one driven axle will offer greater control over heavier loads but dunno if they actually have a greater towing capacity on paper - be interesting to hear what others think/understand of it all 
usertype:3 tt= 0

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it seemed like a good idea at the time

Karrier
7# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
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Posts:3682
From: England
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Time spent: 74989 hours

Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:23/02/2012 16:57)

mum2b dad or numpty dad ?
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silasgreenback
8# 



Rank:Regular Dodger

Score:26
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From: United Kingdom
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:24/02/2012 08:54)

 Thanks for replies everyone!

I don't intend to tow a trailer plated at more than 3.5 ton with my Dodge.

Thanks for the photo too of the downrated plating showing 3500kg towing capacity. It sound to me that this is the best option - bring the dodge to 3500kg and tow an ifor trailer with max plated weight of 3500kg and don't overload it. Any soare weight inside the dodge itself could be used for bulky and light items which suits me fine as i want to use it as a living space.

As far as i can tell, I won't need an O license for towing, although i would if the unladed weight of the trailer exceeded 1020kg and i wasn't only carrying my own goods. B + E should do it and i can keep my dodge and still tow as much as it ever could without it being illegal or dangerous.

 Check this thread for intricacies on trailer towing should anyone need the info http://www.yourroadrisk.co.uk/2009/01/30/towing-trailers-with-vehicles-and-the-law/

I know there are threads on down grading, however i have been told it is quite hard - can someone just reassure me that it is actually not that complicated if you know what you are doing and you can afford a few hundred quid to do it??

Looking forward to only having to put my dodge through a class 4 MOT !!!

Hopefully will be on the road for this season should i be 110% sure it is going to be best option...

Fred
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putting yurts up all over the uk, carrying them in my DODGE 50!!! Hooray!

chugg89
9# 



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RE:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:24/02/2012 16:17)

down-rating is easier than uprating but you'll need some patience with VOSA's Swansea office staff if my experience is anything to go by

you'll have to do some rummaging around here for the correct thickness of packing plate required to downrate from 5.6t to 3.5t (found the 4.6 to 3.5 info whilst tidying up some paperwork this evening - front 5mm/rear 18mm)

you will need thicker packers to further reduce the suspension travel on your S56 by lowering the bump-stop position

so in summary, some steel plate of correct thickness, drilled with a couple of holes for bolts to pass thru, a VTG10 form (obtained from your local VOSA testing station) and some patience to allow for Swansea sitting on your application for a few weeks, telling you it's been forwarded to the testing station (when it hasn't etc.)


(btw, the people at my local VOSA testing station - office staff & testers alike - couldn't have been more helpful, friendly, professional and down-to-earth reasonable - i'd rather take a vehicle for plating than MOT any day!)
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it seemed like a good idea at the time

Karrier
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Time spent: 74989 hours

RE:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:25/02/2012 07:54)

Downrating is quite easy as chugg has said, just the paperwork is the hard bit, the info for S56 to S35 is here

http://www.dodge50.co.uk/downrating/RDE014a.pdf

S46 to S35 is here 

http://www.dodge50.co.uk/downrating/RDE053.PDF

Mk1 dodge 50's 1979 to aug 87 are known as 'pre-evolved'
Mk2 dodge 50's sept 1987 to 93 are known as 'evolved'

I have a S35 uprated to S46 but will be bringing it back down to S35 so my son can learn to drive in it (as well as a car) so he gets some good experience of different sized vehicles, then...maybe.....he will be given it so he has his own dodge 50, he would be so happy.


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chugg89
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RE:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:25/02/2012 11:12)

bit more info for you - found some paperwork relating to the down-rating of my Mk2 S56 back in '93



GTW originally listed as 8100kg (so if van fully loaded to GVW of 5600kg, trailer allowance only 2500kg), which remained same after down-rating to GVW of 3500kg (GTW 6000kg) and obviously doesn't correspond to more recent (10 years ago) plated details of my previously down-rated S46 (photo previously posted showing GVW 3500kg and GTW 7000kg)

my S46 originally had GTW of 7100kg so extra ton of GVW allowed in S56 model increased GTW by same amount (1000kg) - that does make sense!

I have noticed very little (if any) appreciable difference between rear springs fitted to my S56 and S46 Mk2's, which may be down to my eyes or the use of factory packers to alter suspension travel between those two models (or both)

what I hadn't noticed, when making first post, was that with S46 fully loaded, GTW (of 7100kg) allows for a trailer grossing 2500kg (not 3500kg) so it's obviously useful to know your (Dodges) current unladen weight with any alterations you have made to load space etc. before making a final decision

my S56 had it's unladen weight recorded (hand written) on the (old down-rated) plate but this doesn't seem to feature currently - the VOSA station weighed each axle individually for the brake test but not the vehicle in it's entirity - something I plan on doing very soon

the S56, a LWB van with PTO fitted, was recorded as weighing over 3300kg unladen so could technically only carry less than 200kg after down-rating - not very practical and undoubtedly abused by previous owner who carried potatoes and other veg! Obviously with good springs, it would not have appeared over-loaded with 2t of load but the day you are flagged down by roadside VOSA for routine commercial stop-checks ...


usertype:3 tt= 0

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it seemed like a good idea at the time

silasgreenback
12# 



Rank:Regular Dodger

Score:26
Posts:9
From: United Kingdom
Registered:20/09/2011
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:26/02/2012 16:51)

Thanks for the info everyone - i am now confused - it seems by Greg's post of the document about going from S56 to S35, that the GTW will become 6000kg, or per the manufacturers plate, whichever is the lower. ie can tow 2.5 ton behind 3.5 ton dodge
Chugg - your downgraded S46 did say 7000kg GTW, however the note says that the GTW varies depending on what it is towing???

Any ideas on how i can find out exactly what it would be as i need to be able to tow a decent trailer with it for this to work. If my trailer weighs a ton unladen, that only gives me 1.5 ton payload on the trailer ie would prob have to go down a size trailerwise...

Should i ring VOSA? I imagine i'm going to get different answers depending on who i talk to.

I agree that it is odd that your S46 originally could only tow 3.5 ton when fully laden, and actually tow more when laden but down graded. Maybe you were just lucky and this isn't the norm at all ??
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putting yurts up all over the uk, carrying them in my DODGE 50!!! Hooray!

Karrier
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:27/02/2012 04:48)

 I will have a look and photo the s35 plate in my workshop truck, it has been uprated to 4600kgs but I think the original VIN plate is still as it was as 3500kgs, also GTW on a s46 mk1 shows as 7100kgs and S35  show as 6000kgs and on a s56 is 8100kgs 


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chugg89
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RE:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:27/02/2012 11:57)

it's unfortunate that I found what would appear to be conflicting information whilst sifting thru old paperwork but as the S56 was downrated 19years ago, would go with more 'current' info (S46 downrated to 3.5t with new GTW of 7000kg) if it suits your intended use and take solice in the fact that a second S46 was downrated to 3.5t in Oct.03, 2mths after (see photo) and also awarded a new GTW of 7000kg (majority rules!)



key may well be manufacturers plate and how you apply to VOSA for changes to vehicles plated details - there are, I think, some official Renault down-rating/uprating forms which, if submitted, may result in the S35 GTW of 6000kg being imposed? - if you simply complete a VTG10 detailing that you have fitted the appropiate packers (specifying thickness front and rear as appropiate for S56 to S35) and request a GTW of 7000kg you should be ok (quite happy to supply copies of my old plates for both S46's down-rated to 3.5t with GTW of 7000kg if VOSA want to cross-check the applications)

if you are not altering the braking system but simply reducing suspension travel there is surely no argument for loosing such a big chunk of train weight - your truck was built with an engine, brakes and suspension to cope safely with a GTW of 8100kg - to my mind, the alterations talked about so far do not suggest a 7000kg GTW is unreasonable if the balance between vehicle and trailer is maintained

consider the S46 and it's original GTW of 7100kg - if you load the vehicle evenly (using the rear load area) to gross 3600kg, then tow a trailer grossing 3500kg you are within/at the 7100kg GTW limit and your trailer has not exceeded the weight of your tow vehicle, the load sensing valve, if working correctly, is reacting to rear axle weight and increasing bias to rear brakes

obviously if you're close to the limits and loaded unevenly, something isn't functioning correctly on the vehicle/trailer and/or you're seen driving like an idiot you're in for trouble :)


also in shot above is a copy of the original plating certificate for my LWB S46 van - it mentions an unladen weight of 2660kg, considerably lower than that of the LWB S56 with PTO, which was recorded as 3330ish! (I know the PTO gear is heavy as i've had it off for cleaning/painting in the past but still ...)
think your current unladen weight is gonna be particularly useful in this case

dunno why the model of the LWB S46 is recorded as EU6 (as opposed to B46) but there you go (another mystery)


Note2 on the reverse of the plating certificate regarding train weight "the maximum permissible train weight can vary depending on the type of suspension and trailer drawn" - who knows - more confusion fodder!
suspension .. eh? does it refer to vehicles that have auxillary axles that can be raised from road when not in use??
trailer ... referring to brakes and permissible loads dependent on type fitted?? a 3.5t Ifor is gonna be braked on at least 4 wheels
don't see how a Dodge can have a plated train weight with exclusions - it either can safely pull a certain tonnage or it can't (I wait to be educated)
they are generic notes - wouldn't worry too much about them (but if you find out, let me know)


when you said this at the end of your last post "I agree that it is odd that your S46 originally could only tow 3.5 ton when fully laden, and actually tow more when laden but down graded. Maybe you were just lucky and this isn't the norm at all ??" it's actually only 2.5ton as a S46 fully laden (4600kg GVW + 2500kg trailer = 7100kg GTW)

there's certainly a bit to consider, unladen vehicle weight, what you intend on loading into vehicle, how much extra weight will that add, does the vehicle's test allow it, will VOSA be happy without an OL, what load will your trailer need to carry, does your insurance cover it and so it goes on - good luck!


usertype:3 tt= 0

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it seemed like a good idea at the time

Karrier
15# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
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From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours

Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:27/02/2012 12:35)

 Ok just to add to the confusion
my s35 upr
ated to s46 still has the original unchanged vin plate which has no GTW only GVW
1800kgs front axle
2200kgs rear axle

on the pl
ating cert in the cab it shows 4600kgs GVW & 5560GTW

1950kgs  front  axle
3200kgs  re
ar  axle

unl
aden 2970kgs

Dec 3 1993

Now 
as far as I am aware it has the normal mk1 13 inch  brakes not the mk1 11inch  s35 brakes but I have not needed to look yet, but will be in the next week or so, gotta leak to plug (or wheel cylinder to replace) but the GTW is weird, now that may well be because the chassis .5mm thinner, otherwise everything else looks the same as an s46, oh one other thing I just thought of, mine has the servac 65 brake servo, as does the s46 mk1, the S56 / 66 have servac 100 servos, so I reckon thats why the GTW is so low on mine.
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silasgreenback
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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:28/02/2012 04:10)

 Yes, it seems as long as i don't use the Dodge downrating form, then i should get the train weight that i'm after.
As long as I use a taco, have a trailer towing test, and my dodge is downrated, and my trailer unladen weight of less than 1020kg, I won't need an O license, however apparently the rules may change again anyway so will prob have to get an O license anyway - yes they seem like a lot of regs etc, however my set up is small and that will be in my favour, and ive got an operating centre and so am thinking of getting one anyway...
yes i did mean 2.5 ton not 3.5 ton on my last post.
I will keep you guys posted as things progress, for now i need to get the new box finished and then onto a weight bridge!
Thanks for the supporting documents to help - they my well come in handy for sure!!
Fred
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putting yurts up all over the uk, carrying them in my DODGE 50!!! Hooray!

silasgreenback
17# 



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Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:04/03/2014 16:48)

 am returning to this post.... after having my truck dry stored for a couple of years, I am now looking to get it back on the road and plated for 3.5 ton with the biggest train weight I can (i have a 3.5 ton trailer that needs towing)

Will keep you guys posted....!

usertype:3 tt= 0

--------------------------------------------------------------
putting yurts up all over the uk, carrying them in my DODGE 50!!! Hooray!

Karrier
18# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours

Re:downrate S56 or not???
(Date Posted:04/03/2014 17:14)

 Hi Fred

good to hear you are on the case again, I agree with what you have said about not using the dodge / renault form for downrating to keep the maximum train weight you can though a 3500kgs vehicle with a 3000kgs trailer will be well enough to handle from my experiance of towing, I reckon a maximum of 75% of the towing vehicles weight should be a rule of thunb, I have driven and towed many different things in the past, including towing a car on an a frame and a trailer attached to the car, the Bus didn't even have a GTW because is was a bus and the type approval didn't include a train weight, glad i never got stopped lol

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