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Title: RB44 swerving when braking?
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herrcut
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Rank:Dodge Fan

Score: 382
Posts: 139
Registered: 13/02/2005
Time spent: 24135 hours

(Date Posted:08/01/2006 01:07)

This is what i found out tonight:It was a classic mistake that was similar to the jeep problem of WW2. On braking the front springs deflect, moving the axle back slightly and pulling on the steering linkage, hence "the diving across the road" problem. I was witness to all this at that time, the vehicles were off the road for over a year, if not more, before a mod kit came out. Now, I cannot remember what the kit consisted of, as I did not fit them myself, but seem to think it was a spring shackle change. Nothing to do with the actual brakes. It may of course be that like the jeep, the problem was not fully solved even then, after modifying.This is only an mod RB44 problem as far as i am aware, and we have a 2" body lift whereas the utility company ones dont (atleast not the ones i've seen). What do you reckon lads and lasses?
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jfb350
1# 



Rank:Ummmmish

Score:1678
Posts:767
From: United Kingdom
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 66971 hours


(Date Posted:09/01/2006 01:25)

Reply to : herrcut

 Hi There again Herrcut.     My interpretation of the Mods made is that the problematic brake adjusters on the front axle were fettled with.   Something like, First they didn`t have em but regular adjustment is needed because of uneven wear and need for adjustment. Then they fitted auto adjusters,then they took them off ? Basically it seems as if they couldn`t really cure the simple but baffelling phenomenon.

So  I have settled for the Idea that every 12 months before Test: I remove the drums, clean and check brakes and adjust back up . 

Its a policy I stick to for each Motor for piece of mind and hopefully decent reliability.

The First drive of the day occurence of brake keen`ness  & accompanying squeel  disappears after a couple of applications.  This we have read is evident on 4X2   Front drum brake 50 Series models ?

Come on back          Johnny  `n  " JOE"


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Cormocountry
2# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:108
Posts:38
Registered:24/04/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:16/02/2006 03:32)

Hi 'herrcut'...& everyone...

This  jeep swerve business you mention, Is, I beleive, somewhat similar to the Dodge/R-B problem.

Jeeps had/have the spring shackles on the front axle at the front of the spring.....This apparently favours the driveline angles & allows more accurate kingpin caster at a variety of spring deflections.

However...it has the disadvantage, when cornering at speed, of compressing the 'outer' spring but realeasing some of the loading  on the 'inner'....

This lengthens the vehicles wheelbase on the outside, shortens it on the inside, & as the loadings alter & adjust unpredictably on the springs, so too does the position of the axle in the turn, relative to where wheels 'should' be pointing...

Add in some braking, & you have the basis of an engineered component 'fight' in your hands...!

NOW....We've had our S-75 (the sister-truck to Syze's..the one gracing the header of these pages) for nearly two years now....& I have only JUST(!!) noticed that the front axle is not centrally pinned on the springs....This has obviously been done to enable 900x16 fitment without re-engineering spring mount/shocker positions...(but Why..?..Since everything is bolt-on anyway...)...& its a great Yank trick.

We noticed that it does the R-B 44 swerve on occasions right from when we got it, & I am now certain that the position of the swivel housing/wheel, depending on arc of the turn, has a variable leverage effect on the spring, which in turn has its compression effects altered by speed & weight above it....

Remember the R-B 44 has extra height on the cab mounts....so that must raise the CofG just that bit more on the shorter wheelbase to make the problem more acute on this model, as opposed to the longer w/b S-75, which can also generate a bit of 'give' with chassis flex...

Now....imagine the unpredictablity of the loads generated by Army use, when two leaf springs with uneven bias get another factor added in.....the fulltime 4wd...

We use our truck with centre diff locked for extended distances on icy gravel roads in winter.....& it does'nt do it anything like as bad with the difflock in....or when towing heavy trailers..

The fulltime 4wd system (in Rangies & Landies & others too) means that the spin of the shafts puts the engine torque favouring the l/h front wheel first & r/h rear last, but over-run reverses it, through three diffs...& in the Dodge, a sloppy Morse chain in the t/box.....& there you have all the ingredients for spring tensions to be released & re-assigned whilst this all occurs (..simply because you lifted your right foot a bit..)....Add in uneven surface being driven on, & a bit of steering &/or braking....& I beleive you have a few clues as to why the quirks occur..!

Quite why none of this was ruled out in the investigations beats me.....

I have driven Forward Control Land Rovers & 101"s too....all central-pinned axles, & they don't do it....even with massively offset wide wheels.

We also have a UMM Transcat, (first cousin to a CJ-6) complete with front-mounted front spring shackles....but its longer wheelbase stops it doing what the old MB's & CJ-5's used to do...& this is why Land Rover, (who copied the Jeep layout for the first couple of years of 80" production) changed to rear swung shackles in 1950 ...

Would be interested to hear if anyone could add more to this for us..??

Cheers for now...

 

 

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Just-popped-in
3# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:438
Posts:135
Registered:03/10/2003
Time spent: 17122 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2006 00:15)

"It was them who did not understand the effect of the bushes and it was them who did not understand they needed a tie rod between the axle and the structure of the vehicle."

This is taken from this posting Click Here from the last posting by myself. These writings are taken fom government released files and can be found all over the net.

From what I can gather the brake adjusters were first looked at and then the bushes / springs were found to be at fault.

So are tie rods what are needed?

JPI
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Just-popped-in
4# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:438
Posts:135
Registered:03/10/2003
Time spent: 17122 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2006 00:21)

Oh and cormocountry what do you mean when you say "NOW....We've had our S-75 (the sister-truck to Syze's..the one gracing the header of these pages) for nearly two years now....& I have only JUST(!!) noticed that the front axle is not centrally pinned on the springs"?

JPI
Just having a coffee tonight
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Cormocountry
5# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:108
Posts:38
Registered:24/04/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2006 00:46)

...Just exactly that.....There's more spring 'behind' the axle than in front of it....!!

The 'centre'-bolt ain't 'central'...! ......And so the distance between the spring eyes & axle are'nt the same,  & there's one leaf clamp in front  & two behind....

Are 2wd Dodges like this...??   ...& what about 4wd's with 7.50 tyre fitments...?

..And...embarrassingly for me, I've been diving under the truck regularly to grease shafts, & spraying linkages & other bits with synthetic chain lube to keep them oiled....& I do the springs at same time, which was a trick we found worked on our Perkins 109" L/R......lovely ride..

& I just never noticed the unequal distances either side of the axle till the other day....

So whats the problem exactly with the bushes, & is there a remedial substitute...?

 

 

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Karrier
6# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2006 23:29)

Hello everybody, I will measure my springs tomorrow on my mk1 and mk2 and see if they are centrally pinned on the axle. I don't know about the S75 4x4 or the RB44 but I can take a lok at the 2wd for you.

Coromocountry, you say "& there's one leaf clamp in front & two behind...."

oh, do you mean on the springs the clamps that hold the springs in place/together like in this pic at K12?




KaRrIeR
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Cormocountry
7# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:108
Posts:38
Registered:24/04/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:21/02/2006 02:50)

Hi Karrier..

Yes, thats exactly right....I have'nt had time to measure the spring exactly, but there's around 3-4" more  of the main & second leaf 'behind' the axle, & proportinally more of the next 2 or 3 as well...

An old Ford Corsair that I started mounting on a 101" chassis some years ago had rear leaf springs like this.....more behind than in front...

If...& its a big '..IF..' tie rods were deemed to be a solution, I beleive it would not be in the 'latitudal' way they are fitted to the front of coil-sprung L/Rovers, but longditudinally as one might fit traction bars to a street racer....??

Some coilers display some horrible characteristics when braking, when that panhard rod suddenly shifts the CofG sideways by an inch or so, so I don't think it would have been an ideal solution on a 50-series...!

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Karrier
8# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours


(Date Posted:22/02/2006 00:07)



Just thought i would pop this new pic by Syze up.
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The Bead
9# 



Rank:Dodger

Score:14
Posts:3
Registered:19/04/2006
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:19/04/2006 12:54)

Hi to every one,

I am new to the forum, some pictures of my RB44 are in the gallery,

just read this post and thought I would pass on some info I gained in my travels,

about two years ago I was at a small military type show near Ormskirk, Lancs in Merlin with my mates in there Unidog and a Iveco 40WM10, when a old guy truned up asking about the RB

as it happens he was a Renault truck manager from the factory and seamed to really know some stuff, my first question , being a new owner was when I would die from the bad steering problem my mates kept reminding me about... he said..

that Derra( the military test people) found the fault early on, when going off road down steep hill, with one ton munutions in the rear and a big  F*** off gun attached to the hitch at the rear , then applying the brakes, it showed steering problems, later the problem was a bit more common with more use by squaddies,

Boughton being only a relativetly small company struggled to find the fault, they asked renault who did help but they didn't find it either,

brakes    , where the first guess,   not the problem , they could get it to do it with brand new perfect adjusted brakes,

so suspension was suspected

eventually they fitted a camera under the wheel arch to see what was happening to the suspension,

under heavy braking , the front spring twists, and alters the lengths of the drag link to the steering box making a sharp turn from nothing.

the kit fitted cost about ?1000 each at that time ( probably ?50 of bits) the  MOD had about a 1000 RB's and a dispute of who should pay the ?1 million meant all the RB's where taken out of use until sorted,

my burning questions where  what was fitted and where can i get/make one

it consisted of a traction bar type device, like fitted to american muscle cars rear leaf springs to stop the springs twisting under hard acceleration.

he said that it's only extreme braking and with heavy loads that cause the faults and that Renault tested the Civilian version and concluded it was not required on it.

another snippet he parted with was

all civilian RB44 where made on the factory line, with parts supplied by Boughton

but for politcal reasons ( i.e.  not using a french 4x4)  

all the miltary RB's where supplied to Reynolds Bougton factory without any 4x4 parts fitted and they finished them off

any of this info  may or may not be correct, just thought I would pass it on, in case, and I hope it helps

Beady

see some more 4x4 trucks at

www.beady.com/trips.htm

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Just-popped-in
10# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:438
Posts:135
Registered:03/10/2003
Time spent: 17122 hours


(Date Posted:19/04/2006 15:08)

Reply to : The Bead



Hi to every one,I am new to the forum, some pictures of myRB44 are in the gallery,just read this post and thoughtI would pass on some info I gained in my travels,about two years ago I was at a small military type shownear Ormskirk, Lancsin Merlin with my mates in there Unidog and a Iveco 40WM10, when a old guy truned up asking about the RBas it happens he was a Renault truck manager from the factory and seamed to reallyknow some stuff, my first question ,being a new owner was when I would diefrom the bad steering problem my mates kept reminding me about... he said..that Derra( the military test people) found the fault early on, when going off road down steep hill, with one ton munutions in the rear and a big F*** off gun attached to the hitch at the rear , then applying the bra





Hello there Bead, have you seen this thread click

RB44

I have researched the RB44 quite a bit, there are a few RB44 and S75 4X4 owners on this site, which is yours in the gallery?

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The Bead
11# 



Rank:Dodger

Score:14
Posts:3
Registered:19/04/2006
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:19/04/2006 16:20)

Hi popped in about,

 

 Mine is number 16 in gallery one, these where taken on it's first trip to Morocco.

 

I have seen the official version thats posted their, this guy said that the brakes where not the problem, but are a different headache, he was a commercial vehicle person and basically said that thay need good maintainance to make sure the brakes pull straight.

 

mine brakes perfect , and even when I lock the wheels up still steers straight ( wet roads), the wheel cylinders have started to leak again, dammm things, must be because it stands for a month or three.

 

incidently of topic,

 

I build and race Paris Dakar cars and we got approached by a team to help them in 2008,  they intend to use a RB44 for assistance, they are from Weston supermare area if I remember, and use them on there quad off road centre, I am sure they must have been on this website sometime.

 

Beady

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olddodger
12# 



Rank:Regular Dodger

Score:34
Posts:13
Registered:09/02/2007
Time spent: 319 hours


(Date Posted:28/03/2007 22:52)

THIS IS A BIT OLD BUT  MILITARY RB44 WERE DEFINITLEY BUILT DOWN THE DUNSTABLE  TRACK  AS CHASSIS CAB S  ALONG WITH ALL  OTHER 50 SERIES AND RENAULT MIDLINERS  .... BOUGHTON WOULD HAVE CONTRACTED THE BODY  FITTING,,  SOME STD 50S WERE BUILT ON TEMPORARY AXLES AND TAKEN TO BOUGHTONS FOR COMPLETION  BUT NOT THE RB44....PETER 

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