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Title: Vegetable Oil
Dodge50 Series Community Forum   Bio Fuels
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Brewno
 Author    



Rank:Regular Dodger

Score: 22
Posts: 3
Registered: 06/11/2003
Time spent: 0 hours

(Date Posted:07/07/2004 01:42)

I'm still thinking about using Veg Oil to power my Dodge. My car is on its last legs and I may be forced to commute25 miles a day in my camper.I have been told that Bosch fuel pumps can handle the Veg alternative but Lucas pumps can struggle. Which pump does my mark 2 S56 use ?
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jammydodger
1# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:10/07/2004 17:16)

The manufacturer put his name on your pump to help you.

The manufacturer is your best source of information as to wether your pump will run on bio-diesel.

There is a biodiesel site that tells you about some pumps, but mainly modern ones.

All the best Jammy

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Karrier
2# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours


(Date Posted:12/07/2004 18:25)

lucas / lockhead fuel pumps dont like thick mix bio diesel, i use a 50/50 mix with pure clean veg oil and after it has warmed up its great, even more power, you might think it sounds mad but i DO get more power.

i put a can of injecter cleaner in a 1/4 full tanc and run it low then top up with diesel every few thousand miles, i have a phaser 90 with only 28,000 on the clock, i will find out how it goes over time

i have looked all over the web and goat inderstries seem the best, just google search bio diesel and you will find them, the only write up about either phaser90 or 4.236 i have found were ojn a 20% veg 80% diesel mix and had only done a couple of hundered miles.

 

i have done in excess of 5,000 miles so far and no problems, dont leave a high % mixture during winter months as it WILL clog your injector pump.

remember when the vehicles engine is at running temp the veg oil needs no pre heat as the injector pump will heat it to about 40 deg which is what it needs

remember a smoky engine will attract attention, i allways run for 10 to 15 minutes to warm it up if driving in town.

 

good luck

greg

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b483kec
3# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:162
Posts:45
From: France
Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:12/07/2004 21:26)

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DickF
1984 Dodge 50 S66 Luton

jammydodger
4# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:12/07/2004 22:04)

Hi Karrier and everone else I borrowed this (black bits) from autoinfo’s site, please try the sire, he’s got loads of info there.fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

 

http://www.autoinfozone.com/biodiesel.html

 

Amongst other things he warns

The injector pump needs more power to get the fuel pressed through the injector pipes which causes a higher torque on the drivebelt or the drivechain. A broken timingbelt or chain will cause a severe engine damage.

 

The he goes on to explain

As we've explained you need used vegetable oil. Now you can get it from local restaurants or heat it up to cooking temperatures and let it cool.

If using used oil it will need to be strained through a fine filter to remove any crispy fried fish bits!

Next step is to add a solvent to bring down the viscosity.

White spirit is the best, easily available product and preferably non-Kerosene based (for tax purposes).

To make 1 litre of Biodiesel add 3mls of spirit to 97mls of used vegoil and leave to stand for up to a week...that's it!

He means white spirit as used by painters.

That’s 31 mls white spirit per litre of cooking oil.

 

He recommends used cooking oil:

In tests it has been found that 'used' vegetable oil has a slightly changed chemistry similar to that of manufactured Biodiesel that has been through a refinery process called transesterification. This process is a reaction of the oil with an alcohol to remove the glycerin

 

Please look at the complete site.  http://www.autoinfozone.com/vegoil.html

 

Remember that used oil smells chippy and that those sweet lovable chaps with shiny buttons and shiny boots who used to be tall are more likely to spot the smell than the smoke.

 

Does anybody know if or how the Inland Revenue check that what you declare is what you used?

Somebody once said, it’s better to pay a little than loose your wheels.

They can confiscate your motor can’t they?

 

All the Best J

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stageoffroad
5# 



Rank:Regular Dodger

Score:36
Posts:14
Registered:27/01/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:13/07/2004 14:51)

Reply to : jammydodger

Hi Karrier and everone else I borrowed this (black bits) from autoinfo’s site, please try the sire, he’s got loads of info there.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />http://www.autoinfozone.com/biodiesel.html

Bye the way, Bio-diesel made my boat back in the U.S.A. smell like buttery popcorn. I loved it.  I cant imagine that your average bobby would care if it smelled like popcorn, much less even think to call the inland revenue gang. It's not like your using the old red diesel after all.

 

cole

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"I am a warrior, that my sons might be merchants, and their sons poets."

jammydodger
6# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:14/07/2004 00:27)

Hi Cole, if you ever choose to take the M50 South West, from Evesham to Monmouth, make sure that you detour through Ross on Wye.

For there is a special brick built roadside checkpoint on on the side of the A40 as it bypasses Ross; into which, your average bobby randomly diverts passing motorists for the IR and other carrion consumers in order that they get fun and satisfaction at the average motorist expense.

Of an evening you can see a detained motor or two, and some off loaded goods standing all forlorn; for some strange reason, they are particularly active on market day.  During the day, you can see drivers standin all forlorn, perplexing their brains or talking forlornly into their mobile phones.

Siht happens;  mainly to really nice guys.

Red diesel and vegetable oil are much easier and safer than chasing ruffians.

May the luck be with you, and may all your troubles have curly hair - Jammy

 

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Karrier
7# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours


(Date Posted:17/07/2004 01:03)

hi all

on the topic of veg tax it goes like this, well what i can remember from what a customs and exise person told me

you need to apply to be a small fuell producer who mix's his/her own bio diesel on their own premisises and not for sale to others, they send a suit to come and check you out, how you clean and mix the fuel and make sure you have read and adhered to their criteria on their website (dont have add on hand) if they are happy you will be given a licence as a small fuel producer, which you then once a month declare your used amount of fuel in litres and pay 27.1 pence per litre, i guess Some people only declare half their total to keep costs down.

if you are a small fuel producer you will never need to either use the dye that turns red to blue/white diesel or real expensive fuel ever again and not worry about being dipped by      HM C & EX.

 

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jammydodger
8# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:17/07/2004 12:43)

Tush tush Greg, perish the thought that people, especially upright and virtuous Dodge owners, might try to dodge the Revenuers.

Dodging Revenuers can be risky business.

If your mileometer works they estimate what you've declared against what you used for that mileage.

If you buy fuel with a card or a cheque, or keep receipts they estimate what you used.

If you declared fuel used against tax last year, they estimate what you used this year.

There may be some information contained above that some naughty people could use to dodge the Revenuers; its disclosure is entirely accidental.

Incidentally, does anybody know how many extra roadside check points the Gov. set on this year; I seem to remember they promised a five-fold increase - Fings aint wot etc.

All the best J

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Karrier
9# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours


(Date Posted:17/07/2004 13:58)

i saw just the other week in east sussex on the a27 / a26 lewes / bedingham roundabout a roadside check point, this layby has had a check point there for ever...but i have only seen it open twice in all my years and i come from this area!

they had police at the nearest rounabout, junctions etc... but were not interested in me, in fact they turned the other way? i have found that the louder your vehicle (in colours not sound) the less you are noticed, i guess im just asking for trouble here but i have only been pulled over once in the last 10 years!!!!! and that was coz the policeman wanted to book me for his kids party.

now i dont drive around in a posh new merc or daf, just my dodgy dodge50's and they are loud and seem to be left alone.

i will be applying to be a small fuel producer at the end of this year and will post all on this site......oh and the ccstoms people have very little time to check through every months fuel duty payments, as long as you keep sending the money and don#t take the piss you should be ok, they dont have staff to check your mileage and stuff but you could get caught out on a spot check if they do one.

i will find out more

oh and yes used veg oil cleaned is better for the engine as jammy says its the molecular structure that changes and burns better or sommin.

 

greg

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jammydodger
10# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:17/07/2004 17:02)

I can't take any credit for the information on veg oil, used or unused Greg, I just copied the info from that site and pasted it in.

That Ross on Wye check point was very active when I worked out of Ross................... The livestock market nearby reckoned that the check point stopped a significant number of farmers using their site.

I used to play with the guys pulling vehicles.

If I has a clear conscience and not much else to do, I looked at the guy on the pull.......... When looked, I'd got a good chance of being amongst the chosen............... when they started to choose me,.......................... I held up my watch arm for them to see and made a prayer sign with my hands (on top of the steering wheel so that I was still holding it); they let me continue every time.

If I was busy, I avoided looking at them and made sure that I was busy doing something driving related ............watching my outside mirrors ................. changing lanes ..............  signalling right ................   what ever ...............  On only one such occasion the man with his pulling dress on tried me .................. he realised that I was busy, and waved me on, somewhat nervously.

I think that the Revenuers work like the Tax man............... I understand that they fish out a few punters each year ................  then they give those unlucky guys a thorough going over ............  Think lucky?????

Jammy

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lr-exporter
11# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:420
Posts:166
Registered:22/05/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:17/07/2004 20:16)

Reply to : jammydodger

I can't take any credit for the information on veg oil, used or unused Greg, I just copied the info from that site and pasted it in.That Ross on Wye check point was very active when I worked out of Ross................... The livestock market nearby reckoned that the check point stopped asignificant numberof farmers using their site.I used to play with the guyspulling vehicles.If I has a clear conscience and not much else to do, I looked at the guy on the pull.......... When looked, I'd got a good chance of being amongst the chosen...............when they started to choose me,.......................... I held up my watch arm for them to see and made a prayer sign with my hands (on top of the steering wheel so that I was st
Hope everybody reding this thread , realizes that on the continent Veg-fuel-oil is not Bio-Diesel.         Here in Germany Bio-Diesel sold at the pumps  is distilled  Rape also known as Raps-?l.                      Both these fuels  have totally different  detrimental  effects to you Diesel engine.        I,ll start with No: 1 later., as we have customers coming in for repairs and service.   LR - exporter S 56
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looking for co-driver germany to Kenya

jammydodger
12# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:17/07/2004 22:32)

Hi IR, English is a different language from German, it is very flexible language

Bio-diesel is an umbrella word; it means several simiar things; although even in German, you use Bio also to mean food grown the natural way.

In the UK we cook with rape seed oil - rape seek oil is cooking oil - because cooking oil comes from a plant it can be bio-diesel.

Cooking oil may not always be rape seed oil, but the cheapest cooking oil is mainly rape seed oil.

I used the word 'bio-diesel' to mean the Bio-diesel sold in Germany and also to mean cooking oil.

I think that Greg also used the word "bio-diesel" to describe cooking oil.

To make things more complicated, we also talk of used cooking oil and unused cooking oil..................... Used cooking oil has been heated (as I understand German Bio-diesel is heated when it is refined)............... Used cooking oil is probably more like German Biodiesel than it is like unused cooking oil.

I think that it will be a good idea if you say "pump bio-diesel" or "un-used cooking oil" when you tell us about the damage they do to an engine..................... Then we can choose which we think fits best.

J

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Just-popped-in
13# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:438
Posts:135
Registered:03/10/2003
Time spent: 17122 hours


(Date Posted:13/09/2004 03:43)

Long time ,no see

Well I have been running my S75 van Mk 1 4.236 on a 40/60 veg/diesel mix for a year now over here in spain and it runs great, local oil cleaned by myself and free, I have covered thousands of miles trouble free.

I took Gregs advice and pop a shot of injector cleaner in every now and then and it works a treat.

When it's colder I reduce the mix to 25/75 and all seems fine, no clogging but i am in warmer climes.

Have fun at the meet up, I will try to make the next one.

BW

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Popped to the pub, back in a bit.

jammydodger
14# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:13/09/2004 10:55)

Have you tried thinning your vegetable oil with white spirit -x- the site on one of the chip oil discussions suggests thining with white spirit. -x- I can't remember the amounts.

You have two things at opposite ends of the seesaw of probability..

  • When you thin with diesel, you mix thick veg oil with thin diesel, you end up with medium fuel.
  • When they designed your engine, they made the pump drive to pump thin diesel oil, but not strong enough to pump medium mixture for long periods.

Two further points.

You can buy viscocity meters (runniness funnels) very cheaply from car paint shops, they use them to get the paint mix right before they spray.

If you can get hold of a cheap calorifier you can use the engine heat to warm your fuel before it goes into the pump.  A calorifier is a bit of copper tube inside another bit of copper tube -x- the fuel goes through the inner tube, the engine water goes through the outer tube. -x- Saabs (and some other cars used them as oil collers) -x- you used to be able to buy them to heat your washer water before you squirted it onto the screen.

In some veg oil systems, you use two tanks - one for veg oil, and one for normal diesel.  You run on normal until its hot, then you run on heated veg oil -x- before you stop, you need to run for a bit on diesel since your engine won't start on veg oil.

Citroen made ar engine with a diesel fuel heater built into the block -x- others probably did-do.

All the best J

 

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millieyo
15# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:430
Posts:83
Registered:31/10/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:14/01/2005 01:51)

Just awondering if anyone has got a percentage mix of diesel/veg oil mix sorted for our lovely winter climate.Also once white spirit is added does it then come under the higher rate of duty 40 odd pence a litre?Also anyone running on a2 tank system with pre heaters and straight veg oil hows it performing on pump and do you put another lift pump in line? cheers millie

frozen fish heads anyone>

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fish heads eat them up yum

Jammiedodger
16# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:23/01/2005 23:54)

Just awondering if anyone has got a percentage mix of diesel/veg oil mix sorted for our lovely winter climate.  I reckon that if you mix diesel and veg you end up midway thick.

Also once white spirit is added does it then come under the higher rate of duty 40 odd pence a litre?  You 'declare' the number of litres that you put in your tank, so yes, 'you pay tax on it'.

Also anyone running on a2 tank system with pre heaters and straight veg oil hows it performing on pump  Yes, lots do. and do you put another lift pump in line  No, you T-in before the pump?

Have you got an infallible memory millie?

If not, your big worry with the 2 tank system is the day you forget to swap back to diesel in time to clear all the thick veg oil out the system after the lift pump.

The easy way to overcome human error is to have a system that stops you stopping the engine when you run on veg.

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jammydodger
17# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:28/01/2005 20:27)

There's some technical guff here http://www.rainbowtradingpost.co.uk/vegdieselkit.htm.

And I daresay some technical prices, but you can steal their ideas for peanuts.

J

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jammydodger
18# 



Registered:19/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:31/01/2005 19:59)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26261&item=3869720860&rd=1

*** Last Few Left *** Regular price ?30 for 25L

This auction is for a drum of 20L of anhydrous bio-diesel grade methanol and 0.56kg of catalyst, which will yield approximately 125L of fuel. Fuel duty on bio-diesel is just 27.1p per L so a complete 125L batch of fuel, presuming your oil is free, would cost approx. ?44 inc. methanol & catalyst instead of ?105 for regular pump diesel at 83.9per L.

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millieyo
19# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:430
Posts:83
Registered:31/10/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:06/02/2005 22:38)

Reply to : Jammiedodger
cheers for reply I know you pay tax but is it lower or higher rate. Thanks milly
Just awondering if anyone has got a percentage mix of diesel/veg oil mix sorted for our lovely winter climate.I reckon that if you mix diesel and veg you end up midway thick.Also once white spirit is added does it then come under the higher rate of duty 40 odd pence a litre?You 'declare' the number of litres that you put in your tank, so yes, 'you pay tax on it'.Also anyone running on a2 tank system with pre heaters and straight veg oil hows it performing on pumpYes, lots do.and do you put another lift pump in lineNo, you T-in before the pump?Have you got an infallible memory millie?If not, your big worry with the 2 tank system is the day you forget to swap ba
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fish heads eat them up yum

Jammiedodger
20# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:07/02/2005 00:47)

The 20p tax concession allowed by the Chancellor, introduced on Friday, 26 July 2002, is to enable biodiesel made from used oils to compete with petrodiesel.

http://www.biofuels.fsnet.co.uk/biobiz.htm

Just declare the total biodiesel that you wish to declare.

You pay the biodiesel rate on the oil and the chemical that you add.

 

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Dodgy
21# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:08/02/2005 16:17)

 

Making biodiesel requires a chemical reaction involving methanol(model plane/drag car/speedway bike fuel) and sodium hyroxide(caustic soda) and heat, just putting meths, turp, white spirit, parrafin into veg oil will thin it so that your vehicle can run on it but it is not biodiesel, also there are problems in running veg oil from cold start with emissions, engine/rings coking/gumming etc

you only get to go on the lower rate of fuel duty 27.1pence per litre if the biodiesel you make conforms to the specification in HMCE notice 179E

http://tinyurl.com/4n8rn 

if you use new, straight veg oil(svo) or waste veg oil(wvo) that doesn't meet the specs then that is classed as a fuel substitute and you have to pay the higher duty rate 47.1pence per litre

http://tinyurl.com/3jq7u

the same rate if you just add meths, turp, white spirit, paraffin etc.

There have been reports of Lucas injection pumps(IP) breaking when cold veg oil is put into them

http://vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=55

 

the Smartveg system

www.smartveg.com  

for running veg oil has intelligent electronic control that doesn't let the veg oil into your IP until it is up to about 80deg C and a buzzer sounds if you forget to switch back to diesel before turning the engine off, Mike Lawton from smartveg has clocked up 20,000 miles on a lucas pump using his system.

I hope this helps

Chug

 

 

 

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Dodgy Chug

Karrier
22# 



Rank:Ummmmmmm

Status: In a world gone mad only a lunatic is truly insane
Score:11812
Posts:3682
From: England
Registered:02/10/2003
Time spent: 74989 hours


(Date Posted:08/02/2005 16:31)

thanks chug

i have downloaded the files and will take a look

 

thanks again

 

karried away

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Jammiedodger
23# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2005 19:37)

Just declare the total biodiesel that you wish to declare.

You pay the biodiesel rate on the oil and the chemical that you add,

Wrong

Here's the word from the horses mouth.

  • The addition of white spirit to vegetable oil would not classify the end
    product as bio-diesel. HM Customs and Excise would treat this product as a
    fuel substitute. The rate of excise duty payable on any production would the
    Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel rate of ?0.471 per litre. Should the vehicle not be
    operated on the public highway then there would be no excise duty
    applicable.

    I can advise that if you add a non synthetic methanol to the vegetable oil
    then the end product would meet the criteria for being bio-diesel. The rate
    of excise duty applicable for bio-diesel is ?0.271 per litre

    Should the product you produce is going to operate the vehicle on the public
    highway then you will be required to be registered with HM Customs and
    Excise and account for excise duty at the appropriate rate.

    If you have any further concerns relating to the above, please respond to
    the National Advice Service e-mail address above or alternatively contact
    our National Advice Service help line on 0845 010 9000 for queries
    concerning other matters.

    Yours sincerely

    Brian McCann
    Officer of Customs and Excise
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Jammiedodger
24# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2005 21:02)

Test-batch mini-processor

fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

ffice:word" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>For one or two litres

This mini-processor is easy to make from not very much, mostly kichen stuff and a couple of tools. It's effective and safe, closed and virtually air-tight, with no splashing or leaking of hot fumes. It will make one- or two-litre batches for test-batch or demonstration purposes, suitable for single-stage or two-stage processes, with full agitation and temperature control. And you can take it anywhere.

There's no need to follow this prescription exactly -- use what's to hand, improvise. For instance, if you don't have a plastic drill-grip that will fit a plug spanner to use for the drill-stand as described below, we made a second stand using a piece of angle iron and a strip of 3/32" steel half an inch wide bent to fit round the drill and clamped in place with bolts. If you don't have a welder or can't make a steel stand, make a stand out of bits of wood bolted together and grip the drill in a portable vice clamped to the vertical. Or something. A crock-pot might do instead of a spaghetti cooker and a portable gas ring. Our gas ring died so now we use a hot-plate instead. You might find a way of using a sealed bearing in the lid rather than a wooden bush. And so on. Let us know!

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Jammiedodger
25# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2005 21:09)

Materials

·         Three-litre HDPE container with two lids;

·         Spaghetti-cooker -- the bottom and sides of the inner pot are full of holes like a collander;

·         Electric drill;

·         Plastic grip for drill;

·         Stand for the drill;

·         Sparkplug spanner;

·         Stirrer;

·         Portable gas cooker (canned gas) or electric hot-plate;

·         Two half-litre PET bottles.

Cost -- in our case, zero: this was all discarded junk, including the drill, and all in perfect working order.

The drill stand is rigged from scrap angle iron and welded together, but it could just as easily be bolted. The bit that holds the drill consists of the tough plastic grip that came with the drill, a plug spanner, which conveniently fits inside the grip, held in place by two bolts (extra holes mean you can move the drill in and out from the stand), and the plug spanner is welded to an extra bit of angle iron bolted inside the vertical section, again with extra holes above and below for adjustment.

 fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

 

 

 

 

 

The stirrer is a length of 6mm steel rod with a slot cut in the end and a piece of flat steel brazed into the slot, cut to size so it fits through the larger of the two HDPE container lids.

 

ffice:word" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

 

 

 

 

 

The lid is fitted with a wooden bush cut from hardwood with a 6mm hole drilled through it to take the stirrer shaft. Make it a tight-fitting hole, then heat a piece of the same steel rod as the stirrer and push it carefully through the hole -- not too hot, just enough to scorch the surface of the wood inside the hole, not char it. Add a few drops of biodiesel for lubrication.

usertype:5 tt= 0
Dodgy
26# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:18/02/2005 22:44)

A word of warning is needed here

this article mentions using a gas ring to provide the necesary heat for the biodiesel reaction.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU USE ANYTHING THAT HAS AN OPEN FLAME. Methanol is highly flammable and can be ignited very easily and is much more volatile than petrol, it forms explosive mixtures with air and burns with a nonluminous flame.

Chug

usertype:3 tt= 0

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Dodgy Chug

Jammiedodger
27# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:19/02/2005 00:36)

Methanol is highly flammable and can be ignited very easily

True - x - hence the statement Make it a tight-fitting hole, etc

But I'd worry much more about that it's fumes are very poisonous - x - methanol is what alkies drink - x - you also get out of an illegal still if you don't know what you are doing.

In real terms, as long as you don't drink it or breathe it, methanol is about as risky as methylated spririts, hands up all the people who have used a spirit stove ( afondue set or an alcohol camping cooker. - x - a propane cylinder inside your vehicle is much more dangerous.

. - Always wear safety glasses.
Remove any source of ignition from the working area. Don't forget that a hot air gun, a hot plate or even a radiator may be sufficiently hot to ignite the vapour.
You should not breathe in the vapour, so use a fume cupboard if available. If this is not possible, ensure that the area in which you work is very well ventilated.

Making biodiesel out of oil and methanol is not for the faint hearted. - x - When I've got some time, I'll put the rest of the method in.

usertype:5 tt= 0
Jammiedodger
28# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:20/02/2005 10:21)

Cut a square hole in the lid the exact size and shape of the bush; cut another hole in the lid insert. Saw two shallow grooves on all four side of the bush, immediately above and below where it will fit the lid. Push the bush into the hole in the lid; push the insert into the lid around the bush. Secure with epoxy resin -- push the resin firmly into the grooves to hold the bush in position. Some silicon round the seams helps.

Heat up the oil in a saucepan on the gas cooker and pour it into the mini-processor.

Slide the business end of the stirrer inside the processor and slide the bush in the lid over the other end; screw the lid on firmly. Fill the two half-litre PET bottles with water at or above the processing temperature. Put the processor into the spaghetti cooker; wedge in position with a PET bottle on either side. Add hot water to the cooker to just below the height of the oil -- as much water as it will take before the processor begins to float. Use the gas flame to adjust the water temperature to the processing temperature, then turn off the gas.

Attach the drill to the stand, tighten the stirrer in the chuck, switch on and start stirring.

 fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adding the methoxide

See Methoxide the easy way.

We mix methoxide for test batches in HDPE chemical bottles, which have a strong lid and a bung. Drill two holes in a lid and fit two short sections of plastic or 1/8" (4mm) copper piping, fix on both sides with strong epoxy resin. To one, on the inside, fix a length of rigid 1/4 (6mm) plastic tubing that will reach almost to the bottom of the bottle. To the other, on the outside, fit a length of flexible 1/4 plastic tubing. Fit a third section of copper piping to the small lid of the processor.

To add the methoxide, remove the lid and bung from the bottle of pre-mixed (cool) methoxide and screw on the transfer lid tightly.

 

 

 

 

ffice:word" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

 

 

 

usertype:5 tt= 0
Jammiedodger
29# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:20/02/2005 10:43)

Please note, turn the gas off before you add the methoxide.

As Chuggy pointed out, methoxide is dangerous.

They tell you to add the COOL methoxide. 

What they really mean is - ADD UNHEATED METHOXIDE.

I reckon that the best way is to

  • Leave the methoxide outside while you .
    • Heat your oil
    • Heat your water.

What do you reckon Chuggy?

usertype:5 tt= 0
Dodgy
30# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:20/02/2005 21:11)

If you are careful you can warm the methanol in hot water, but no more than 45 - 50 deg C as methanol boils at around 65 deg C and when you add the NaOH catalyst it will also create a little extra heat, it makes dissolving your NaOH catalyst much easier and quicker, this is not a problem if using KOH for the catalyst as it dissolves in the methanol easily.

Also the methoxide won't lower the reaction temp too much if it's already warm itself, the reaction will work at lower temps but takes twice as long for every 10 deg C difference, ie reaction will take 1 hour at 60 degrees but 2 hours at 50 degrees.

 

 

usertype:3 tt= 0

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Dodgy Chug

Jammiedodger
31# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:21/02/2005 15:05)

Elsewhere in the article that I borrowed, it says

5"5 deg C (131 deg F) is a better processing temperature. Don't let it get too hot or the methanol will evaporate. (Methanol boils at 64.7 deg C, 148.5 deg F.)"

and

methanol is a deadly poison: first it blinds you, then it kills you, and it doesn't take very much of it. It takes a couple of hours, and if you can get treatment fast enough you might survive. (But don't be put off -- it's easy to do this safely. Safety is built-in to everything you'll read here.)  the bits with the pictures.

Err Chuggy, I'm a bit concerned that the twice as long for every 10 deg C difference theory may spread a misleading message - - x - - it may lead people to think that if it take an hour at 45C, it will take 8 hours at 15C, so why bother about heating it in the first place? 

Do you know the answer to that one please?

 

usertype:5 tt= 0
Dodgy
32# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:21/02/2005 23:42)

jammie

by the style of this I'm guessing you got it from the Jouney that is taking forever website, which has lots of good info with mike pellys recipe, but it's foolproof method has come in for lots of criticism because even well practiced biodieselers have had trouble making good fuel with it, they also deliberately hype up the deadly poison bit as there are so many people out there who aint got a clue and need warning, but if your careful, it's as you say no worse than LPG gas or petrol, both deadly in the wrong hands/conditions.

To get the chemical reaction that turns veg oil into biodiesel you need heat, I think the minimum is about 20-25 degrees C but at this temp it would need agitating for hours, so most people go for around 55 deg C as this only takes an hour and a half, and you are no where near to 65 degrees methanol boiling point so wont lose any methanol due to evaporation, personally I start the reaction at 60 deg C and mix for just over an hour as the temp has usually dropped to 55 deg C in that time, I tried going at 63 deg C once but could see slight methanol vapours starting to form on the surface when I poured the methoxide in, so I kept a safe distance just outside the garage in the fresh air, so I'm sticking with 60 deg C from now on.

usertype:3 tt= 0

--------------------------------------------------------------
Dodgy Chug

Jammiedodger
33# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:22/02/2005 10:34)

by the style of this I'm guessing you got it from the Jouney . . .  I recommend folks not to bother with that site, for the reason's you've outlined Chuggy, and a few of my own.

it's foolproof method has come in for lots of criticism because even well practiced biodieselers have had trouble making good fuel with it, . . . If you've got a double first in bio-chemistry and engineering I reckon that on a good day, you could sort out the good from the bad and the down right ugly on that site.  Other than that, it does your head in, a lot of the stuff contradicts itself in my book.

they also deliberately hype up the deadly poison bit  That's probably the bit I like best  - - x - - some folks get lung cancer at 30 from the exhaust smoke from their 90 year old, '90 a day since I was 6' grandads - - x - - The trouble with safety warnings is that you hype them up. 

That said, illegal still have killed a few operators when they've turned out methanol instead of drinking alcohol - - x - - Like normal alcohol, methanol fumes give a warm comfortable feeling of safety.

To get the chemical reaction that turns veg oil into biodiesel you need heat, I think the minimum is about 20-25 degrees C but at this temp it would need agitating for hours, so most people go for around 55 deg C 

  • Do you get better fuel at around one particular temperature Chuggy?
  • Do you get more fuel at around one particular fuel?

 I tried going at 63 deg C once but could see slight methanol vapours starting to form on the surface when I poured the methoxide in, so I kept a safe distance just outside the garage in the fresh air, so I'm sticking with 60 deg C from now on.

The 'dip your toe in the water' i've been sticking on the site has a condensation trap - - x - - What do you reckon to that idea?

usertype:5 tt= 0
Dodgy
34# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:23/02/2005 12:49)

Jammie

you asked

  • Do you get better fuel at around one particular temperature Chuggy?
  • Do you get more fuel at around one particular fuel?
  • The 'dip your toe in the water' i've been sticking on the site has a condensation trap - - x - - What do you reckon to that idea?

I don't think you get that much difference in quality with heat variation, the reaction just goes quicker with more heat, the most critical elements for the amount of conversion(transesterification of veg oil into biodiesel methyl esters)) and the quality of the fuel are the result of the amount of methanol and catalyst used.

A trap for the methanol is a good idea, but obviously involves more work to build, if you are careful and methodical you should be alright without one.

Tilly's Dr pepper method is a good intro into basic biodiesel making this webpage has useful pictures 

 Tilly's Dr pepper method from http://www.kitchen-biodiesel.com/

usertype:3 tt= 0

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Dodgy Chug

Jammiedodger
35# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:24/02/2005 21:59)

Thank you very much for Dr Pepper Chuggy, I enjoyed it.

The bit that puzzles me is that very few of the sites mention checking to see how much hydroxide is left in the oil.

The next bit of the one I've been putting on the site has a con trap. - - x - - for my money, if the vapour condenses properly, the con trap can vent into the air. - - x - - although the site one doesn't.

One lot boil the spare methanol off at the end of the process and condense it so that they have some clean methanol for next time.

J

 

usertype:5 tt= 0
Dodgy
36# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:27/02/2005 13:50)

Jammie

I'm not sure what you mean by checking to see how much hydroxide is left in the oil, sodium or potassium hydroxide is mixed into methanol then added to the warmed oil, do you mean how much catalyst remains in the finished biodiesel? if so this depends on how much was used but should only be negligable amounts

You need to have quite a bit of the glycerine by product to start reclaiming the methanol from it, people usually manage to reclaim 10 -15%, and as the methanol is the costly bit this can help reduce your costs.

I really must go and get on with the work I should be doing instead of playing on here!

usertype:3 tt= 0

--------------------------------------------------------------
Dodgy Chug

Jammiedodger
37# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:27/02/2005 20:28)

I tried that work malarky Chuggy, but never took to it.

do you mean how much catalyst remains in the finished biodiesel - x - I'm not sure which bit is what they call a catalyst.

I mean how much sodium hydroxide (or potassiom hydroxide)  that you pour into the cooking oil is left - x - The technical sites test to see how much is left over and neutralize it - x - the backyard ones seem to keep quiet about it.

The weregonnamaketheworldlastforever site mentions using a solution made from a plant to so find out how much hydroxide is left, but like to much of that site,  it seemed a bit too "hippy to me man".

In my book, hydroxide could seriously shorten the life of an engine.

usertype:5 tt= 0
Dodgy
38# 



Rank:Dodge Fan

Score:160
Posts:40
Registered:11/10/2003
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:03/03/2005 00:25)

Jammie

sorry I should have said that the sodium/potassium hydroxide is the catalyst, and there shouldn't really be any left in the biodiesel, if the reaction is done well it should all be used up, but if like me you use more than normal, then I recommend washing the biodiesel to remove it, some people don't bother washing their biodiesel and unless they got their catalyst amounts exact so it is all used in the reaction then they will surely have some catalyst in their fuel!

 

usertype:3 tt= 0

--------------------------------------------------------------
Dodgy Chug

Jammiedodger
39# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:04/03/2005 22:09)

I'm not sure what you mean by checking to see how much hydroxide is left in the oil, sodium or potassium hydroxide is mixed into methanol then added to the warmed oil, do you mean how much catalyst remains in the finished biodiesel?

I've not worked out what they mean by a catalyst yet Chuggy.  Which bit is the bit they call a catalyst please?

I mean how much hydroxide (sodium or  hydroxide) is left at the end - x - What can go wrong, will go wrong.

J

usertype:5 tt= 0
Jammiedodger
40# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:04/03/2005 22:29)

To add the methoxide, remove the lid and bung from the bottle of pre-mixed (cool) methoxide and screw on the transfer lid tightly.

Fit the other end of the length of flexible 1/4 plastic tubing to the inlet pipe in the small lid of the processor. Now, carefully, lift the methoxide bottle above the processor and turn it upside down. Air goes into the open pipe to the bottom (now the top) of the bottle, methoxide drains out of the second pipe through the processor lid into the oil to be mixed.

When all the methoxide has drained, turn the bottle right way up and put it down on the table beside the processor. Any stray methanol fumes that don't condense inside the processor will vent into the methoxide bottle and condense there.

Monitor the temperature with a thermometer, turning on the heat when necessary -- this is quite safe, even with gas, as is running the drill motor, as no methanol fumes escape during processing. The temperature only needs adjustment twice in an hour at normal room temperature. The HDPE container is translucent rather than fully transparent but it's clear enough to see the reaction going on inside, and the changing colour and viscosity of the oil.

When the process is finished, disconnect the drill, remove the container and stand it on its side to settle, small lid down; later, to drain off the by-product, simply tip it up, hold it over a container and loosen the small lid, tightening again when you hit the yellow biodiesel.

usertype:5 tt= 0
Jammiedodger
41# 



Registered:06/03/2004
Time spent: 0 hours


(Date Posted:09/03/2005 09:26)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36799&item=4534587977&rd=1

A very unusual item this! I am not at all sure what vehicle this was intended for but it is similar in design and construction to the "enots" type as fitted to Landrover , scammell, Ferret etc.The difference is that there is a pair of change over valves in parallel. In effect it will change over 'two tanks' to 'two tanks'. The sealing washers etc are all the same which is why I bought it. Otherwise it is just nice to have it-- so well made and a quality item

Just the job for a seperate tank for chippie oil if you wish to go that route?

If you wish to know how to knock an oil heater up for a fre quid, let me know on this column.

J

usertype:5 tt= 0
Sir_Henry
42# 



Rank:Regular Dodger

Score:26
Posts:5
From: USA
Registered:08/02/2014
Time spent: 0 hours

Re:Vegetable Oil
(Date Posted:08/02/2014 11:34)

 I've run several cars on SVO and filtered WVO over the past few years with few problems. The proviso that Bosch fuel pumps are best for this is correct, although the occasional Philips pump may work quite well on it. It's because of the lack of decent quality control at the Philips factory. As above it's mostly down to making sure that the oil is thinned down to avoid excessive pressures in the wholly mechanical pumps. I've found that the addition of 5% unleaded (shake vigorously) to the oil a week or two before adding it to the fuel tank is the best/cheapest way to go, but 10% put straight into the tank followed by the oil so that they mix thoroughly will usually do the trick just as well.
Another tip is to start off slow. Go no higher than 50/50 for the first tankful or three before slowly ramping up the %age. Even so it's strongly advisable to add a good quality inline filter and always keep a spare standard fuel filter or two in the cab for emergency use. Get your inline filters from eBay as they can be cheaper by the dozen - equivalent to 3 or 4 for the price of one at your local car spares outlet and even dearer at Halfrauds. I've found that the best are the clear one with a red exoskeleton so that you can see the nylon filter material inside as any that use a paper filter will just disintegrate and bu66er up the lift pump inside the injector pump. DO NOT forget to check how to change it as it can be somewhat awkward if you have to explain to the fuzz why you seem to be servicing the vehicle on the hard shoulder of a motorway!
Here in Blighty the cheapest SVO - apart from having a cash & carry card - is at FarmFoods. Just google for "FarmFoods vouchers" and you can get 10% off the price of £25, £50 or £100 worth of purchases in a single trip. With the oil only costing £9.95 per 10 litres this takes it down to just 90p/litre with something else (to make the bill up to the full amount) at a discount or even free!
Filtering WVO is 'another country' as it's far better to assemble a proper filtering setup and doing all the filtering cold as hot filtering can allow significant amounts of fat through which can (particularly in cold weather) block the fuel lines, filter or even the injector pump.
As I write I've got 1.6 tonnes of WVO on my back garden waiting for me to finish erecting my new garage (damn this rain ... Grrr) so that I can rebuild my filtering setup.
HINT 1: add the 5% unleaded at the second settling stage so that it has time to work its magic and the result will be as good as - if not better than - commercially produced biodiesel.
HINT 2: When replacing the fuel filter pour a full bottle of injector cleaner into it and top up with SVO to give the pump and injectors a damn good clean/flushing.
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