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Title: push-thru sizing die
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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:09/18/2003 07:06:56)
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My RCBS lubrisizer snapped in two after 20 years of service. I shipped it back to RCBS, and they should replace it, eventually, but in the meantime I had no way to size bullets or crimp on gas checks.A post on the Accurate board suggested making a die holder that holds RCBS sizing dies in a reloading press, so that they can be used as push -thrus. This sounded good, but the OD of the RCBS dies is 0.710" and the minor diameter of a 7/8"-14 thread is about 0.752", meaning the proposed die holder would have extremely thin walls. I wanted something more substantial.I decided to use 5/8" drill rod for the interchangeable dies. Water hardenening drill rod is dirt cheap. It took me about 30 minutes to drill, bore, cut-off, hone, and heat treat the dies. They are 1" long and have a generous taper at the entrance.Next, I made a shell holder, except it is solid instead of being cut out to receive a shell. I drilled and tapped it for 5/16"-24. Push rods were made from grade 8, 5/16"-24 bolts. For small calibers, the head is cut off and the shoulder is turned down to the appropriate diameter. For large calibers, the head is turned down to the appropriate diameter. The push rod is screwed into the shell holder and secured with a jam nut.I wanted to make a simple die to hold the interchangeable sizing dies. Just 7/8"-14 on the outside, 5/8" on the inside, with a shoulder to hold the interchangeable die. A dab of alox would keep the interchangeable die from falling downward. But I am waiting on parts to enable my lathe to do threading, so I had to improvise. A .308 Hornady seating die just happens to be 5/8" ID, with a shoulder inside. It just happens to have room to accept my 1" long interchangeable die. The little clippy thing at the bottom of the Hornady die keeps everything from falling out. There wasa sleeve inside the Hornady die that was only about 0.33" ID, so I made a replacement sleeve that is 0.515" ID, to allow up to 50 caliber bullets to pass through.It works great. Even heat treated bullets size easily, concentrically, and without deforming the nose. I'll never size rifle bullets in an RCBS lubrisizer again!Of course, a Lee push-thru die would accomplish the same thing. But I would have to order the Lees from back East, andsome of my guns need custom sizes that would cost more and take longer. Now that I have everything setup,I can make myself a custom die out of 5/8" drill rod in about 30 minutes. I'll try to borrow a camera and post pictures in a few days.
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(Date Posted:09/18/2003 10:36:01)

........Dan, a very excellent idea. I have a nasty little lathe that allows me to do a few things. I've made my share of push through size dies. Not too far away is a materials company (steel, alum, brass, and bronze, in sheets and shapes) plus nuts, bolts, etc. I buy 7/8-14 threaded rod in 3' lengths.



The push through die and pushrod are the 2 items on the left. I made the pushrod so it's a push fit into a std Mauser size (.473" head) shell holder. What's nice about your idea is the size of the items. You can have one insert holder that threads into the press. This is one 'die' size 7/8-14 threaded piece and then several of the much smaller inserts. Using a dieset box, you could have your one holder and umpitty inserts. Very cool!

..........Buckshot

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CarpetmanRay
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(Date Posted:09/25/2003 17:54:19)

MTNGUN--Since you have retired you RCBS luber from duty on rifle bullets--will you still be using it on pistol bullets? Did you switch to liquid lubes? With your machinist capabilities,one modification I would suggest on the RCBS luber when you get it back is to get rid of the toggle handle pressure feed. If the luber is the new style thats what it has. You just mill a hex below where the hole the toggle handle slides through and use a ratchet. RCBS provided me with a new bolt and the ratchet when I had mine converted.
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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:09/26/2003 06:58:36)

UPS brought me a brand spanking new lubrisizer today.  No wonder I like RCBS!

I'll use the push thru for sizing rifle boolits, if they need sizing, to avoid bumping up the nose, then lube them in the lubrisizer with an oversize die.  Also use the push thru for experimental sizes, since it's much easier to make the push thru dies than lubrisizer dies.  Use the lubrisizer for everything else.

Never tried the liquid lubes.  I suppose they save time, but the casting and reloading season is 9 months long up here, so I rather enjoy handloading in the winter months, and don't get in any hurry.

The old lubrisizer didn't have a rachet.  Whatever it came with broke right off the bat, and was replaced with a phillips screwdriver stuck through the hole.  The new one has a simple sliding handle.  Hey, that's uptown compared to a screwdriver!  But your idea for the ratchet is even better.  Or I may tack-weld a small 1/4" socket on top of the bolt and just use a 1/4" ratchet.

Also received the parts to make an encoder for the lathe spindle, so I can do CNC threading.  If I ever get that working, my first project will be to make a die holder for my push thru dies. 

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Anonymous
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(Date Posted:10/10/2003 18:50:42)

$%*'`[Hudson]%*'`@I too have an RCBS sizer but, when I used it to size .45 cal rifle bullets that had been paper patched there was a problem. The bullets would enter the sizing die without problem but the paper jacket seemed to align during the process and when lifting the handle to remove the bullets the paper seemed to jam until sufficient force was applied to realign the paper. The removal force was much higher than the entry force. (The two rods on either side of the sizer were bending.)

The .45ACP taper crimp die from Bonanza, which I happened to have, solved the problem. The top throat is .457" diameter, There is a gentle taper and a nice polish. It sizes .45-70 paper patched bullets better than a Lee because of the last two feature. I just push the bullets through.
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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:10/11/2003 11:05:56)

...........Hudson, The fertile 'Can Do' brainstorming of the boolit tinkerer at work again

..........Buckshot
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akabeagle
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(Date Posted:10/21/2003 03:17:57)

Reply to : MTNGUN


Orygun Mark's the man on nose first sizers.  He made a couple out of some 7/8 X 14 dies that I came up with that had a .700 opening and my particular one uses set screws for locking the sizer die in place.  Recent mods have corrected this  and more mods are coming. Some RCBS sizers have a small band up near the top that is about .010" high.  I chucked this in a DP and ground it off with a file.  Now, all my sizers fit.

Ours uses a threaded shell holder for the push rods.  Normally about 5 sizes will cover from .22 through .462.

I've rigged a chute for mine and it hangs on top of the die and drops the bullets in a box.  I ran 600 9mm bullets the other day without a bobble.

I'll never be without a nose first again.  Anything you have a sizer die for, you have a nose first and I think I have about 90 different sizes at this time.  No distortion, none of this one sided business and no TP ding on the nose.

Biggest breakthrough in sizing in years./beagle

 

 

 

 

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Bass Ackward
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(Date Posted:10/22/2003 14:00:55)

Reply to : MTNGUN

It works great.  Even heat treated bullets size easily, concentrically, and without deforming the nose.  I'll never size rifle bullets in an RCBS lubrisizer again! 


Hmmmmmmmmm.................  Nose thru sizing huh?  ..............  I just might have to try this. 

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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 02:07:09)

Here's that picture I promised about a year ago of my push-thru sizer.

The Hornady die was supposed to be temporary until I found time to make a permanent die holder -- yeah, right.

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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 03:00:31)

MTNGUN,

   Seeing how I don't want to go thru all the problems to post pictures the later nose first die holders I made used RCBS aluminum deprimer/belling die bodies. I have sized 50 cal BP bullets in them with no problems. I used your same idea for the push rod but D&T'd lee shell holders for 5/16 bolts. I use a die lock nut D&T'd for a set screw with a hole in the right spot on the die holder. I just loosly hold the die and and it works wonderful. I can use the sizer dies I already have. There are all sorts of ways to nose size first including making mods on a Lyman 45 ot 450 or RCBS sizer.   Mark

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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 03:52:18)

Crazy Mark,

    That's a good idea to put the die set screw thru the lock ring, I'll have to try that.

    I lean toward the ultra heavy duty construction, after having

  1. snapped the cast iron RCBS lubrisizer in two while sizing heat treated bullets
  2. then promptly bent the linkage on the replacement unit that RCBS sent me, while bumping up some bullets.
  3. then after I had straightened it and reinforced it with welded-up gussets, I bent it again.

   The linkage has been re-straightened and re-reinforced, but it's now reserved for very light duty sizing and lubing only.  

 

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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 05:05:19)

MTNGUN,

    I haven't broke a 45 or RCBS sizer yet. Of course I'm not bumping up and will use a light coat of sizing lube or other lube if sizing down too much. The die rests against a tapered stop inside the adapter and that thickness is .100 which is pretty strong and that area and the area just before it are threaded into the press.   I just went the easier route. It's more hassle to make all the sizers I would need your way. No real wrong way.    Mark

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 05:38:53)

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MTNGUN, I haven't broke a 45 or RCBS sizer yet. Of course I'm not bumping up and will use a light coat of sizing lube or other lube if sizing down too much. The die rests against a tapered stop inside the adapter and that thickness is .100 which is pretty strong and that area and the area just before it are threaded into the press. I just went the easier route. It's more hassle to make all the sizers I would need your way. No real wrong way. Mark

I have a Lyman luber/sizer, the 4500, not a real new one.  Anyways I've sized all kind of stuff in it from normal cast bullet 22 cal and up to heat treated 45-70's AND I've even sized jacketed bullets down to another size.  Never broke or bent anything.  I sure would like to be watching you fellows that break these things.  Maybe, even though the RCBS sizer lookes like a Lyman, it's not as strong?

Joe

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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 06:08:26)

starmetal,

the most I have sized down is .008 for my 8 x 56R. I learned about  lubrication about 35 years ago and have decided the easier I can make a job using lube the less my equipment gets damaged.  Now swaging bullets is where I have tore up equipment. I'd say the RCBS and new lymans are the same strength, By new I mean 450 and above. The 45's have some pretty wimpy parts IMHO so I use it accordingly.   Mark

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akabeagle
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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 15:50:01)

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I'd sure like to see what you guys are doing to break those sizers as well.  Man, you must be applying some "gorilla" strength to break one.

I've been casting and sizing for "awhile" now.  I have about 4 sizers of different makes and manufacture.  The only sizer I've ever broken (except for bolts) is an old #45 and I dropped it while mounting it on the bench and cracked the casting.

The adapter for using sizing dies is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I use mine almost daily.  If I'm downsizing a bunch, I throw in an intermediate sizer and make two passes.

7/8 X 14 dies work well for adapters.  I've been using mine for over a year now with no bad results.  They're plenty strong even though they're thin.  In this operation, all of the stress is placed along the die axis and there's very little lateral stress and that's contained by the sizer die.  Even the little 7/8 X 14 adapter that Lyman sells can be "hogged out" to accept a sizing die and it will work to hold the sizers.

I don't know as I'd go into business making these things.  The concept is proprietary to Lee even though it's a somewhat different principle. Nobody will say anything about making them for home use or for a few friends but to market them would be a different matter.

At any rate, it sure makes sizing bullets straight an easy process.

Now, I just need time to get my fixture made for ram alignment on the sizers. So little time./beagle

 

 

 

 

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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 17:12:43)

95% of my reloading is small batches of experimental bullets and loads so lots of times it is easier to create a different diameter bullet by sizing or bumping an existing bullet instead of making a new mold just to do one experiment.  So, yes, I am hard on equipment.

Like the other day I made Jumptrap a 32 caliber Loverin and I got to looking at it and thinking "Gee, I wonder how a loverin would shoot in my '06?".   It was an easy job for my push thru sizer.

I don't think there is any patent on the Lee sizer, Beagle.  Patents only last 25 years and there is very little in the cast bullet business that wasn't invented 100 years ago by Harry Pope's generation.  The problem with a die holder for RCBS/Lyman dies is that it would be paper thin where it threads through the press.  Might work fine for most people but someone like me would be apt to break it.   Besides, most Lyman/RCBS/Saeco dies do not have enough taper at the entrance.

I've thought about selling my design but it's one of those things where it would have to be mass produced to be cost effective.  To make a few on a custom basis would cost far more than most of us would be willing to pay.   On the other hand, it's frustrating when a guy orders a custom Lee sizer that turns out 0.003" under spec, as happened to one of my customers recently.  Or when his Lyman/RCBS unit shaves lead because it doesn't have a generous taper at the entrance. 

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akabeagle
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(Date Posted:05/19/2004 20:03:27)

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Not flaming here.....

I don't know about the Lee patents.  They're pretty possessive on their stuff.

I you haven't made a grinder to grind a 7 degree leade on your sizing dies, do so immediately.  A whole new world will open up.

My reloading and sizing is the same way.  The worst case sizing I've done is to take a 439186 measuring about .442 down to .431 for use in the .444 Marlin.  The grease grooves get a little shallow but it shoots good.

With enough sizers and a nose first rig like we've been using for a couple of years, you can make about anything in the bullet line and a Sunnen grinder takes care of the odd ball diameters of sizers.

All I'm saying is this is workable at anyone's level by opening a 7/8 X 14 Lyman adapter and fitting a setscrew to retain the die.  Any lateral stress to the 7/8 X 14 adapter is contained by the female threads in the press. The push rods are made from either 5/16" stock or 5/16" hex head bolts turned down to the appropriate diameter for the die and the other end turned to about .260" to drop into a RCBS shell holder. The length is fairly critical as they have to be long enough to push the bullet through but not so long as for the "anvil" to pass through and hang up on the return trip.

It's a darn good concept but there's no money there as we discussed this several years ago when Crazy Mark made the first two sets./beagle

 

 

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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:05/20/2004 00:30:42)

Beagle,

    I am with you on creating a taper at the entrance of the sizing dies.  All of my store-bought dies have been honed to break the sharp edges and to create some taper (plus I had to hone them to open up the diameter anyway). 

    However, a lot of casters are not enthusiasts like you and I.  They are just trying to save a few bucks by casting their own and don't wan't to have to modify equipment or shell out big money for custom dies.  It's a shame that they have to deal with poor quality equipment.

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(Date Posted:05/20/2004 16:50:53)

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I "agrees"..... I think too many people getting into the casting business try to buy used/obsolete equipment for cheap and get into trouble.  I buy all kinds of sizing dies but I have the capability to modify them to make them work as they should.  Many guys buy the old sizers without any taper and wonder why their bullets look like crap and shoot the same way.

I guess the old saying that you get what you pay for is very true in the casting game as well.

Looking at it after years in this hobby, I can truthfully say that we're better off now than we have ever been as far as good equipment, moulds and accessories and the custom guys that will make anything your heart desires or that your wallet can afford. I believe that we can thank the internet and sites like this for that progress as it allows easier interchange of ideas.

There's those of us that live our hobby day and night and those that haven't gotten the disease that bad........yet. It's all just a matter of $$$$./beagle

 

 

 

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(Date Posted:05/20/2004 19:12:23)

I have an interchangeable bushing push through sizer, made by an outfit called WTA.  Any size bushing, in .001" increments, are available.  I bought it a few years ago and paid $20 for the die and $8 each for the bushings.  Shipping for any size order was $5.  The interesting thing about this tool, is that the bushings are held in place with a bit of plastic bread wrapper.  For most of us, the supply of retaining material is inexhaustable (?).  There is a patent number on the die, though that may only apply to the bread wrapper part.  Who knows for sure?

Ernie

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(Date Posted:05/20/2004 21:41:19)

I haven't seen that. Are they still available?
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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:05/21/2004 09:31:55)

..........I do not believe there would be any patent infringement to Lee's push through bullet sizer as the concept was not original to them. Besides, I doubt Lee has a patent on these dies. What is there to patent? If the idea of a bored through hole was patented then a vast bunch of us would be in violation. The thing isn't the same as the bored through cylinder of the Rollin White patent S&W held over Colt's head, as that was a thing that had the entire proceedure of loading/ejecting held in suspence as it named the cylinder as part of the patent.

..........Buckshot
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elblerinnv
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(Date Posted:05/21/2004 14:59:47)

I don't know if WTA is still in business, but here are the particulars:  WTA Manufacturing, PO Box 164, Kit Carson, CO 80825, 800-700-3054, fax 719-962-3570.  I seem to have mislaid my brochure, so took this information from 2003 Gun Digest.

This whole topic of more flexible push through sizers is useful, and I hope someone (commercially) keeps at it.  Didn't Z-Hat offer a double stage resizer at one time?

Ernie

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(Date Posted:05/21/2004 19:58:45)

I found WTA's home page: http://members.aol.com/DuctMan249/WTA.html
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(Date Posted:06/06/2004 08:00:29)

Pacific used to make push-through dies to fit on loading presses.  They looked like case-trimming dies, with a straight hole through the center.  These didn't lube at all and appear to have been used with a flat-headed plunger on the base of the bullet.  They also had a large sizer-lubricator gadget that screwed into the die position on the loading press, I'm not sure but it looked like this was nose-first.  Ideal tong tools were also nose first sizers, pressing the bullet through a hole in one of the handles.  Actually, in the twenties and thirties, the notion in bullet sizing was that nose first sizing bent the bullets and base first was the way to go for accuracy.

I can't imagine Lee has a patent on the concept of nose-first sizing in a loading press or by any other means.  If there is a patent, it must cover the catchment setup for the sized bullets or the manufacturing process.

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(Date Posted:06/07/2004 04:51:27)

"With all this nose first sizing talk (believe me I'm NOT against as some may think) why doesn't the mould manufacturers make moulds with the nose on the sprue cut off side? Hey Dan...make some moulds that ways. Then we will have a better base which seems to be more important then the nose.
Joe"

........In order to do a nose pour mould, you'd have to have 2 plates connected together like NEI does, a base pin like for HB slugs, or a plate attached to the bottom of one block which would cover the entire base when closed.

You can't lathe bore or cherry a set of blocks with just the small area of the meplat open to feed your tools through, and the neck on a cherry would be too fragile.

..........Buckshot
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(Date Posted:06/07/2004 07:34:27)

Buckshot:


".....In order to do a nose pour mould, you'd have to have 2 plates connected together like NEI does, a base pin like for HB slugs, or a plate attached to the bottom of one block which would cover the entire base when closed.

You can't lathe bore or cherry a set of blocks with just the small area of the meplat open to feed your tools through, and the neck on a cherry would be too fragile."

Not as bad as that, ackshully.  Back in the pre-Lyman days, many of the flat-point bullets (and even a few RN's, which ended up with small meplats after the sprue was cut off) could be had as nose-pours in the "Perfection" line, with an adjustable base plug to vary the bullet length and weight.  And ALL the hollow-base designs were - of necessity - nose pours.  Most recently - about three years ago - Lyman ran a special batch of nose-pour #457676 510-gr. FP's to Paul Matthews' design.  Some people have had trouble keeping this one hot enough, though, as there is very little metal below the base in their standard large blocks with this long bullet.  ALL the Ideal/Lyman nose-pours were in standard two-piece blocks, and all - to the best of my knowledge - have been cherry-cut.

floodgate

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(Date Posted:06/07/2004 17:56:50)

..........Floodgate, "could be had as nose-pours in the "Perfection" line, with an adjustable base plug to vary the bullet length and weight. And ALL the hollow-base designs were - of necessity - nose pours."

I know , "like NEI does, a base pin like for HB slugs, or a plate attached to the bottom of one block" .

...........Buckshot
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(Date Posted:06/07/2004 18:42:07)

Buckshot:

OOOPPS!!!  I was thinking like a mould collector, not a machinist.  You got me, two falls out of three.  Of course the "Perfections" and the HB's were cherried through the plug opening at the bottom (you could use the standard cherry, if it had a long enough stem).

BUT, the Matthews #457676 WAS cherried into standard 2-piece blocks from the TOP, closed at the bottom, with no separate plug, base plate or sprue plate.  Paul wanted the square base, without other complications, but it worked only so-so, according to reports.  (I have one, but am still working up the wood on my old Ballard "Pathetic", so have not cast with it as yet.)  The meplat on this one is big enough to allow a sturdy cherry stem through the sprue opening.

floodgate

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(Date Posted:06/08/2004 16:15:01)

Reply to : Buckshot2

"With all this nose first sizing talk (believe me I'm NOT against as some may think) why doesn't the mould manufacturers make moulds with the nose on the sprue cut off side? Hey Dan...make some moulds that ways. Then we will have a better base which seems to be more important then the nose.Joe"........In order to do a nose pour mould, you'd have to have 2 plates connected together like NEI does, a base pin like for HB slugs, or a plate attached to the bottom of one block which would cover the entire base when closed.You can't lathe bore or cherry a set of blocks with just the small area of the meplat open to feed your tools through, and the neck on a cherry would be too fragile...........Buckshot
Actually, LEE does this. Look at their hollow base molds, they are nose pour. I have several special order molds setup just this way. Some have a flat base plug that I can change out for the hollow base plug. All this was included and fit from LEE in the price of the mold. It works fine too.
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