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Title: Time for a new heavy .45 ACP mold
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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 02:41:33)
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I found an arcticle by paco kelly on heavy .45 loads for the 1911 and want to try them. He is getting about 1050 from a 255-260 which I think would make a killer black bear/hog load. My question is this. He is using a keith boolit and I am wondering if the Lee 255 lrnfp would be just as good. Any thoughts?
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Paul AK
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 03:54:27)

I think that would be a great bullet, and since ogival wadcutters have more weight in the nose, you'll have a touch more powder capacity.  Considering how small the 45 acp case is, every bit of powder space counts.

Just remember that while it may be alot of power for a 45 acp, it isn't even close to a 41 mag, 44 mag or modern 45 colt revolver.  I'd consider it a bit ligth for things with claws and tusks, but to each their own.

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 04:00:02)

I'll more than likely never try it myself but Paco says his load punched clear thru a Blackie!!!

Just another project to play with for me!!!!!!!!!

 

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35remington
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 05:18:23)

I wouldn't use the load in a 1911 much. That's liable to overdrive the slide, and with extended use things could loosen up. You probably would need a spring in the 22# range to take that load.

Ramshot lists loads using Enforcer powder that attain those speeds using jacketed bullets in the ACP at normal pressures, but that's still a lot of momentum for the recoil operated mechanism to absorb. Sounds like occasional use only. Such a load would work pretty good in an ACP revolver, though.

Chuck Taylor seems to think a lot of the ACP/Auto Rim loaded to these speeds for use on big game, but then he does some crackpot things like shoot elk with 155 grain hollowpoint bullets out of a .40 S&W, which is lunacy in my opinion. I wouldn't use any of the ACP hollowpoints on a hog, since they are designed for softer targets and 850 fps speeds. You didn't ask about jacketed bullets, though. The 255 grain cast should penetrate a lot. The meplat on Lee's flatpoint is the same size as the nose on the SWC, so no difference there.
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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 06:12:20)

Here's what to do if you want a heavy hard hitting 45 acp.  You get a Rowland 460 conversion.  What this is, is a hot loaded 45acp but with a hair longer and beefed up case to prevent it from being put in a regular 45 acp.  The round rival and beats the 44 magnum.  They have the conversion for an AR 15 which is even more awesome in power.  I saw both shot and they are definately right up there with the 44 mag.  That's what I would do rather then hot rod the standard 45 acp.  I'm sure the gun takes a beating but you'd be surprised how tough the 1911 is.  I run a heavy spring in mine and a recoil buffer though because I don't like on the slide pounds the recoil spring guide back into the frame.  No sense in pounding the gun if something as simple as a stiffer spring and buffer will preven it.

Joe

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akabeagle
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 06:34:48)

Reply to : harley45

Interesting subject this.  For sure, the heavy spring is in order for an auto.  I've been tinkering with some heavy loads in the Ruger Blackhawk convertible the last several months in ACP cases.  I'm using 240-260 grain bullets and either Unique, Herco or Blue Dot powder.

Blue Dot is a good powder with the heavy bullets in the 255-260 grain class. All loads I tested were in the data range from the Speer manual.

I used Lyman's 454190, a Lyman 452490 with the GC shank removed and of course, the 454424 (along with some rarer Lyman heavy weights that you probably won't find as they're almost collector's items).  All of these bullets gave me good accuracy.  Lyman's 452423 which is a lightweight comparatively gave me poor accuracy past 50 yards.

I was impressed with the old 454190 and I believe it would feed well in an auto and I feel darn sure it would punch on through a blackie just fine as some of my loads were approaching 1,000 FPS.

I'm a big Paco fan also but I take some of his data with a grain of salt.

But, saying that, with a heavy spring and some 454190s in a .45 auto, I figure you'd be pretty well armed./beagle

 

 

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 06:42:22)

Reply to : akabeagle

Reply to : harley45Interesting subject this. For sure, the heavy spring is in order for an auto. I've been tinkering with some heavy loads in the Ruger Blackhawk convertible the last several months in ACP cases. I'm using 240-260 grain bullets and either Unique, Herco or Blue Dot powder.Blue Dot is a good powder with the heavy bullets in the 255-260 grain class. All loads I tested were in the data range from the Speer manual.I used Lyman's 454190, a Lyman 452490 with the GC shank removed and of course, the 454424 (along with some rarer Lyman heavy weights that you probably won't find as they're almost collector's items). All of these bullets gave me good accuracy. Lyman's 452423 which is a lightweight comparatively gave me poor accuracy past 50 yards.I was impressed with the old 454190 and I believe it w

Beagle....I too have a Blackhawk convertible and in addition a semiatuo Thompson machinegun and an HK semi machinegun.  I can honestly say that I wasn't impressed with the velocity figures with the few powders that I tried to beef the loads up with in the afore mentioned guns.  That includes BlueDot, Unique, and few others.  Unless you're dealing with the exceptional size blackies I don't concider them hard to bring down nor penetrate.

Joe

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lar45
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 06:59:04)

I think that Brownell's has a Wilson Recoil Buff kit.  Mine came with a full length guide rod, heavier spring and neoprene recoil/ impact pads.

The Military TZZ brass is very strong.  I like it alot.

I'm thinking that 2400 might get you close to the target velocity.  The pressure will be over SAAMI for +p, but the heavier recoil spring might work.

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 07:17:04)

Paco's load used hs7 at 12 grains for a velocity of 1050. he claims to have had it pressure tested at about 27000psi. The arcticle is over on sixgunner.com under the archives section and is called The Daly 45 I think.

 

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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 08:54:57)

..........For your perusal, rumination and cogitation. Not new news, but interesting. From the "Book of the 45" by Dean Grennell published by DBI Books in the late 80's. Chapter 12: The 45 Super and the .451 Detonics Magnum.

I guess that the Detonics Magnum can be dispensed with here, since the 1911 type pistol and it's case (a .945" 45ACP case) are NLA. Detonics did produce kits to retrofit into M1911 pistols. However Dean used the .451 case trimmed back to persue ballistics experiments in the 45 Super.

.451 Detonics Mag loads. AA-7 powder, 185gr Sierra #8810 Match:

14.0, 1230
15.0, 1320
15.7, 1371
16.2, 1384
16.6, 1414

H&G # 938 mould, 175gr cast bullet, AA-7 powder:

15.0, 1410
15.7, 1420
16.6, 1520
17.0, 1557

"...........SAAMI decrees an industry maximum pressure for the 44 Magnum of 43,500 CUP. I note that by way of giving you a comparative yardstick by which to evaluate the situation. The thing about being an experimental ballistician is that, every now and then you have to stick your neck out and go in harm's way. It's neither reassuring nor all that much fun. In fact you tend to breack out in the cold cobblies, every time you stop to think about it.

I've had reports to the gist that some of my experimental 45 Super loads (In cutdown.451 D Mag cases) have developed peak pressures on the order of 45,000 CUP, slightly in excess of the hottest sanctioned 44 mag loads. At that spooky level you get a Nosler 185gr JHP out of a 5" barrel at 1500 fps.

Getting back to +P loads in the 45ACP, there are some interesting alternatives to be explored. Jim Clark's custom barrel, with it's intrgal feed ramp leaves little of the chambered casehead unsupported, and somewhat the same can be said of the S&W models 645, 745, 4506, and 4516. With such barrel and chamber configurations it may not necessarily require a case with stronger head construction to obtain substantially higher velocities. It may be possible to do quite well with standard 45ACP cases, particularly on their first loading.

The key consideration in such applications is what the firing of such loads will do to the affected components of the pistol. As you begin to venture beyond the conventional ammunition specifications, several buckets of snakes slither onto the scene. When Detonics used to offer a kit for converting the standard 1911 pistols to handle the .451 Detonics Magnum, they supplied a heavier firing pin spring, as well as a stronger recoil spring assembly with 2 co-axial springs.

All of the foregoing discussion on the 45 Super and the .451 Detonics mag may be academic in view of the inavailability of the sturdy cases............."

"...........In the present marketplace sans .451 D Mag brass, the only other alternative for making up extra strength 45ACP brass is to use the .45 Winchester Mag brass. Be duly advised that while stronger then standard 45ACP, it is NOT as sturdy as the .451 D Mag brass"
As I've read about using .223 brass to make 38 SUPER-super cases, couldn't you also use say, 308's cut back and reamed for 45 Super? Using these in a fully supported chamber you'd then have the best situation possible, right?)

Chapter 13. "A Novice Encounters The 45 Super:

Basicly covers the conversion of .451 D Mag brass to 45 Super and his pistol mods done by pistolsmith Ace Hindman. One small blurb re, loads. The light load with a 185 JHP was 1150 fps and top load was 1375 fps (no load data).

..........Buckshot
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 17:59:32)

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS 
Q:What 1911 pistols do you consider the best platform for the 460 Rowland Kit?
A: The best candidates for this kit are single stack Kimber, Colt, Springfield Armory and Norinco 1911 style 45 ACP semi-auto pistols.
Q:Will shooting the 460 Rowland in my 1911 increase wear on my gun?
A: Any time you increase power, you will accelerate wear. For example, you would expect more wear on your revolver if you were shooting a steady diet of 357 Magnums as opposed to .38 Special loads. We've sold over 1000 of these kits with no reported stress related problems.
Q: Is it safe to install the 460 Rowland Drop In 1911 Comp Kit into my older spot heat treated 1911 pistol?
A: NO! We do not recommend this kit for installation in any GI or other spot heat treated 1911s!
Please note that we will not guarantee this kit to fit or function in
your Auto Ordnance, Llama, Charles Daly or AMT 1911 style pistols.
Q: Are there any other guns that you specifically DO NOT recommend for the 460 Rowland?
A: YES! We do not recommend this kit for installation in
  • IAI (Israeli Arms International) - We've found the top lugs in the slides of the Philipines produced 1911s to be VERY soft! We've not tested the Israeli made guns but would recommend extreme caution.
  • Auto Ordnance
  • Llama
  • AMT
  • Charles Daly
  • Any "GI" 1911
Q:  Can you provide a cylinder chambered in .460 Rowland for my Smith & Wesson 25/625 or Ruger Blackhawk?
A:  No, you must currently send in your cylinder assembly to be rechambered. (Click here for more info)
Q: Can you make a comparison from 460 Rowland to 45 Super?
A:  200 Feet Per Second faster.  460 Rowland is Longer and more durable brass.  460 Rowland will NOT fit in a 45ACP chamber!!!
Q:  Will you chamber my non-compensated barrel in 460 Rowland?  OR sell a barrel only (No Compensator) in 460 Rowland?
A:   No,  the compensator is necessary to prevent damage to your 1911 pistol.
Q:  Can I still shoot 45ACP in my gun?  If so, will it adversely affect accuracy?
A:  Yes, you may shoot 45ACP in the 460 Kit.  However, it is likely that you will experience some degree of accuracy loss shooting 45ACP in the 460 Rowland kit and we cannot guarantee functional reliability. The 1st reason is that you're counting on the extractor to hold the 45acp against the breech face. The 2nd reason is the spring is too heavy for the 45acp to cycle the slide..
Q:  Where can I get .460 Rowland ammo / brass?
A:  Right Here @ Clark Custom Guns Call us toll free @ 888 458 4126 to order.
Ammunition Manufacturers:
Georgia Arms
Q:  Do you make the drop-in kit for my Para Ordnance?
A:  All Para Ordnance Drop-In Kits have been DISCONTINUED due to reliability problems.
Q:  Do you make a comp kit to fit my Colt GOLD CUP/ENHANCED model?
A:  YES..  We have to make a minor modification to the barrel hood.  Please make sure to specify GOLD CUP / ENHANCED model. There is no additional charge for this modification.
Q:  Do you make the drop-in kit for any 1911 shorter than the government model?
A:  Now manufacturing for Colt Commander (4.25" barrel). We've discontinued Springfield Champion (4" barrel) due to function / reliability problems.
Q: Will 45ACP function using the recoil spring that comes with the Rowland Kit?
A: Most Likely NOT.! You will probably have to reinstall your factory spring to shoot standard 45ACP.
Q: Why does it make a difference that my gun is stainless?
A: Stainless steel creates much more friction than traditional blue steel. We have found that most stainless guns will not work with the 24lb Wolff spring that we normally ship with the kits. If you've got a stainless gun, you should request the 18.5 lb spring kit.
Q: Do I have to buy new loading dies?
A: No. You can use your 45ACP dies to reload 460 Rowland.
Q: Is it true that there's a conversion unit to convert my 1911 to a 460 Rowland Carbine Rifle?
A: YES!!! Click Here to Read More about it. You can order directly from Mech Tech Systems.

Joe
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Chargar
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(Date Posted:09/01/2004 19:17:06)

Paco is the last guy I would argue with about what works and doesn't work in handguns. I do have some concerns about the slide momentum in such heavy bullets in the 1911 pistol.

A better alternative is to use good old Lyman 453423, which is a Keith design for the 45 Auto Rim. This bullet will weight in at between 230 and 245 grains depending on the alloy and when seated with just a tad of the front band out of the case, will feed well in most 1911 pistols. I have taken several deer and a couple of dozen javalina with this bullet out of a Colt Gold Cup.

Like others I would not take on anything larger than deer with any bullet out of a 1911, although I have taken Mountain Lion without any trouble with the 1911.

Lyman no longer makes this design, but similiar designs are available from several sources.

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/02/2004 00:09:33)

Reply to : Chargar

Paco is the last guy I would argue with about what works and doesn't work in handguns. I do have some concerns about the slide momentum in such heavy bullets in the 1911 pistol.A better alternative is to use good old Lyman 453423, which is a Keith design for the 45 Auto Rim. This bullet will weight in at between 230 and 245 grains depending on the alloy and when seated with just a tad of the front band out of the case, will feed well in most 1911 pistols. I have taken several deer and a couple of dozen javalina with this bullet out of a Colt Gold Cup.Like others I would not take on anything larger than deer with any bullet out of a 1911, although I have taken Mountain Lion without any trouble with the 1911.Lyman no longer makes this design, but similiar designs are available from several sources.

Would anybody have a link to a boolit like he is talking about?

 

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AnthonyB
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(Date Posted:09/02/2004 04:16:24)

Fellas; beagle sent me a goodly selection of the heavy 45's he tried in the Blackhawk convertible, and my job is to do the same in the 1911.  I have a bid on a full size Colt Combat Target coming up the middle of this month, and I intend to start testing shortly after that win or lose.  I'll be looking for accuracy/velocity, and will start with a new recoil spring in the pistols.  It's gonna be fun... Tony 
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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/02/2004 05:19:55)

Reply to : AnthonyB

Fellas; beagle sent me a goodly selection of the heavy 45's he tried in the Blackhawk convertible, and my job is to do the same in the 1911. I have a bid on a full size Colt Combat Target coming up the middle of this month, and I intend to start testing shortly after that win or lose. I'll be looking for accuracy/velocity, and will start with a new recoil spring in the pistols. It's gonna be fun... Tony

Tony

The only other round I've been shooting longer then the 45 acp is the 22 rimfire. About the heavy slugs in the 45 acp, I've been there and done that and it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Joe

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akabeagle
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(Date Posted:09/02/2004 05:50:04)

Reply to : harley45

Check the Lyman designs on castpics and look for 452423.

Not wanting to flame anyone and for sure I'm not intending to dispute the old master...Elmer, but accuracy for the 452423 has not been there for me past 50 yards in either the .45 ACP or 45 Colt.

Now, the HP version shot well from both guns but I was plagued by flyers in my testing at 100 yards with the solid version and I mean 2-3 foot flyers not just your little 6 inchers.

After trying many combinations of powder, seating, sizing I came to the conclusion that there's something a little flaky about this design for long range handgunning.

I know I'll get dumped on for that statement but that was my experience and I tells em' like I sees em'./beagle

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/02/2004 06:55:46)

WEll guys and gals for now I ordered the Lyman 255 gr round nose flat point mold and a 22lb spring for my Kimber.(allready using a buff) My plan is to try some hs6 and hs7 loads and see what happens. I would like to get between 900-1000 fps. and I'd be happy. Minute of hog or bear at 25-30 yards accuracy will also be a goal. I'll never hunt a bear with it but I bet a hog or Whitetail falls to it real soon.

 

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/02/2004 06:59:47)

Reply to : harley45

WEll guys and gals for now I ordered the Lyman 255 gr round nose flat point mold and a 22lb spring for my Kimber.(allready using a buff) My plan is to try some hs6 and hs7 loads and see what happens. I would like to get between 900-1000 fps. and I'd be happy. Minute of hog or bear at 25-30 yards accuracy will also be a goal. I'll never hunt a bear with it but I bet a hog or Whitetail falls to it real soon.

I shoot the RCBS 255 SWC out of my 1911's.  I believe a bear would fall easier to a 46 acp heavy load easier then a hog.  I tell you what, you sure as hell don't want to be shooting at a 300 lb boar down here in TN with a 45 acp unless you are in a tree.  I keep saying, unless you have an exceptionally big black bear (say 600 lbs or more) they aren't hard to kill.

Joe

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/03/2004 02:43:47)

I've decided that I need a new gun to go hog hunting. I'm looking into 50 bmg right now
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Lloyd Smale
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(Date Posted:09/03/2004 12:55:05)

ive tried quite a few bullets designed for the 45 colt in the acp both sized at .452 and .451 and cast of quite a few different alloys and never have gotten accuracy or functioning that have pleased me in the autos I have had good luck with them in acp revolvers though.
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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:09/03/2004 20:00:27)

The 255 grain RFN 45 Colt traditional bullet from the 45 ACP will equal a magazine-fed 45 Colt at 900 FPS or so.  If the accuracy is there, I think it will do the job for you. 

My sole venture of this kind was some years back, using some 454190 look-alikes at about 780-800 FPS in the now-ancient S&W M-645.  They seemed to shoot about as well as the 230 grainers (both J-word and real boolits), but I never went further with the idea.  Load data was extrapolated from the Speer Manual, where you can still find loads for their 260 grain RNHP.  IIRC, I used Herco and Unique for those loads.  Looking at the current Speer Manual, the loads listed for the 45 AR are somewhat lighter than those listed for the 45 ACP using the 260 HP.  YMMV, and have fun.

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350mag
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(Date Posted:09/04/2004 09:51:28)

I am shooting the Lee 252gr swc with 10gr of HS-6. I don't know what the FPS is since I don't have my chronograph readily available. This load functions fine in my Springfield 1911 with a 22 or 24lbs spring(I don't remember which I have in it) and a full length guide rod with a shock buffer. It doesn't seem to cause the slide to slam or have unusual recoil. This same load also works well in my wife's Taurus 45ACP revolter. The recoil is stout for her but managable. I have not really tried to punch paper with it but it shoots to point of aim and groups well enough for its intended purpose.
Ken
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Chargar
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(Date Posted:09/05/2004 00:53:50)

Beagle..No penalty for calling them the way you see them. I will be the first to admit that 452423 is not a target bullet. I have had better luck with 452160 for that purpose. I sharted shooting 452423 in 1962 in both the ACP and  Long Colt rounds. The 45 Colts being a pair of New Service Colts. I think the last time I shot this bullet at 100 yards on paper was in a 5.5" Colt New Service and the groups were nice round "pie plate" size. I noticed no flyers like you describe. There are rather short fat little kegs and I would imagine it would react badly to casting hickies. I have used this bullet for 300+ plinking at various objects and hit them with this bullet as well as I could any other bullet and round. Not very scientific huh!

I have no idea how many tens of thousdands of these bullet I have fired over the years. I neglected to get a four holer before Lyman pulled the plug, so a some 12 years back had Hoch make up a three hole clone. A couple of years back Glen Fryxell, knowing my fondness for this bullet, let me have a Lyman four hole in a very gentle swap.

My favorite brush pistol is a SMith and Wesson 1955 Target Model that has had the barrel reduced to 4". I use this bullet over 7.5/Unique for a measured velocity of 940 fps. The bullet weights out at 242 grains.  This is Keith's old load and it has killed all manner of critters and never let me down. This load and pistol has never been on paper past 25 yards and the accuracy is around 2" depending on my shooting skill that particular day. None of this is target accuracy, but plenty of old fashioned practical field accuracy.

Glen has a HP version of this mould and sent me some cast out of 1:20. I keep some of these loaded over enough Aliant 2400 to give 1.1K fps in my choped Model 25 right beside my bed. The idea of getting hit by one of those, makes me sick to my stomach. They have proven to be very accurate, when these are gone I will cast some solids and hollow point them with my Forster gizmo.

In the 45 Colt, I have gone to RCBS 45-270 SAA. Out of WW+2%sn this cast out at 282 grains. Loaded over 20/H4227 they deliver 1 to 1.1K fps depending on pistol and barrel length. Accuracy is OUTSTANDING at any range. Pressure while above the factory load level is not at the frame stretching pressures that shooters of today like to use. This load is safe for regular use in my 5" SMith and Wesson 25-7. This is all the pistol I need.

Cheers gents..

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/05/2004 01:09:32)

Reply to : 350mag

I am shooting the Lee 252gr swc with 10gr of HS-6. I don't know what the FPS is since I don't have my chronograph readily available. This load functions fine in my Springfield 1911 with a 22 or 24lbs spring(I don't remember which I have in it) and a full length guide rod with a shock buffer. It doesn't seem to cause the slide to slam or have unusual recoil. This same load also works well in my wife's Taurus 45ACP revolter. The recoil is stout for her but managable. I have not really tried to punch paper with it but it shoots to point of aim and groups well enough for its intended purpose.Ken

What brass were you using for this load? +p Regular or Starline Super? I know with a Jacketed Hornady 230 gr slug and 9 grains of hs6 with 45 super brass and a 5inch gun I get about 950 fps.

 

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/05/2004 01:16:43)

Reply to : Chargar

Beagle..No penalty for calling them the way you see them. I will be the first to admit that 452423 is not a target bullet. I have had better luck with 452160 for that purpose. I sharted shooting 452423 in 1962 in both the ACP and Long Colt rounds. The 45 Colts being a pair of New Service Colts. I think the last time I shot this bullet at 100 yards on paper was in a 5.5" Colt New Service and the groups were nice round "pie plate" size. I noticed no flyers like you describe. There are rather short fat little kegs and I would imagine it would react badly to casting hickies. I have used this bullet for 300+ plinking at various objects and hit them with this bullet as well as I could any other bullet and round. Not very scientific huh!I have no idea how many tens of thousdands of these bullet I have fired over the years. I neglected to get a four holer before

My first mould for a 45 LC was the RCBS 255 gr SWC.  It has proven to be the most accurate 45 mould I've ever owned out of more then 3 or 4 revolvers and 3 lever action rifles.  My standard load (and for years) is that bullet overtop 9.0 grs of Unique.  I even shoot this bullet out of my 1911's , my semi-auto Thompson machinegun, and my semi-auto HK submachine gun.  All the afore mentions guns love this bullet. My most accurate revolver for it is my Smith 25 with 8 3/8 barrel but I don't I believe I push mine as hard as you do yours.  Years ago in some gun rag the author of the article on hunting with the Smith 25 in 45 LC was in all honestly a really nice writer and honest and he even admitted as much as he hotrodded 45 LC's he said don't do it in the Smith 25.  He said nothing like a complete blowup would happen but it would really loosen the gun up.  He pointed out how thin the cylinder really is on that revolver and how the bolt notches are right over the cylinders and it's mighty thin there too.  So I heeded his advice and I don't push it real hard, one reason is I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 45LC that I can load up hotter.  In real life a 255 gr SWC 45 LC bullet really doesn't need to be clipping along at 44 mag velocities to accomplish alot of chores.

Joe

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350mag
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(Date Posted:09/06/2004 06:50:35)

Reply to : harley45



Reply to : 350magI am shooting the Lee 252gr swc with 10gr of HS-6. I don't know what the FPS is since I don't have my chronograph readily available. This load functions fine in my Springfield 1911 with a 22 or 24lbs spring(I don't remember which I have in it) and a full length guide rod with a shock buffer. It doesn't seem to cause the slide to slam or have unusual recoil. This same load also works well in my wife's Taurus 45ACP revolter. The recoil is stout for her but managable. I have not really tried to punch paper with it but it shoots to point of aim and groups well enough for its intended purpose.KenWhat brass were you using for this load? +p Regular or Starline Super? I know with a Jacketed Hornady 230 gr slug and 9 grains of hs6 with 45 super brass and a 5inc





Harley45,
I am using once fired R-P standard brass. I am seeing no signs of pressure. I worked the load up using Wolf or US steel cases in the revolver before I used them in the 1911. I do not have a fully ramped barrel so I would expect to see bulging in the feed ramp area if they were really hot.
Ken
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lar45
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(Date Posted:09/06/2004 16:47:36)

Again, I'll mention that if you can get some TZZ military brass, I think it would be just as good or better than 45 Super Brass.

My first venture into loading the 45acp was I took a buddy's load, stuffed it into my TZZ cases and went shooting with him.  The problem was that he was useing win brass and I didn't back off and work up.  My rounds were kicking considerably more so we ran a few across the chrony.  They had a 230 LRN going 1300ish with 700x.  The brass was fine and didn't have any bulges at all.  The LLama was battered abit with the barrel bushing trying to push it's way out the front of the slide.  The AMT Long slide hardballer didn't show any signs of abuse.

I"m sure the 45 super brass will work, but if you could happen into a pile of TZZ mil surplus brass....

If you want I can run some numbers through Quickload.  Post your bullet weight, length, COL, Measured case capacity in H2O and bbl length.

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harley45
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(Date Posted:09/06/2004 17:28:17)

Thanks for the quickload offer I'll post the info in a couple of days. Other than velocity what does quickload tell you?

 

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/06/2004 18:16:56)

Reply to : lar45

Again, I'll mention that if you can get some TZZ military brass, I think it would be just as good or better than 45 Super Brass.My first venture into loading the 45acp was I took a buddy's load, stuffed it into my TZZ cases and went shooting with him. The problem was that he was useing win brass and I didn't back off and work up. My rounds were kicking considerably more so we ran a few across the chrony. They had a 230 LRN going 1300ish with 700x. The brass was fine and didn't have any bulges at all. The LLama was battered abit with the barrel bushing trying to push it's way out the front of the slide. The AMT Long slide hardballer didn't show any signs of abuse.I"m sure the 45 super brass will work, but if you could happen into a pile of TZZ mil surplus brass....If you want I can run some numbers through Qu

lar45

I've been shooting the 45 acp for more then 30 yrs.  The TZZ brass is real good stuff.  I have it and shoot it myself, but believe me it's not stronger then 460 Rowland or the other super 45 stuff.  It has the same web thicknesses as other make 45 acp brass.  There is no reason for the Israeli's to make a "special" strong brass for the 45 acp.  The expanded web on a case shot in a 1911 type firearm IS NOT a good indiccation of how hot a load is for it.  Alot depends on how badly a 1911 barrel has been throated.  Alot of amateur gunsmiths put too much of a ramp on the bottom portion of the barrel and this leaves ALOT of unsupported case in that area.  So even a normal load will expand the web there.  Glock used a stronger thicker webbed brass on their new 45 GAP to be able to get this round up to higher pressures.  For those of you wanting to push the 45 acp, please use the brass like the 460 Rowland, 45 Super, or at least the 45 Win mag.  It's not pleasant to have a web blow out , blow you mag out of the gun, and blow the grips with splinters into your hand.

lar, careful on that LLama.  I worked alot with Llama's and although they are an ok gun for the money , they are soft. I think that you seen that in what you describled with yours.  The only hard part I found on them were the sears.

Just be careful guys.

Joe

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/06/2004 19:36:36)

Okay here are a sectioned TZZ 45acp case and a Remington 45acp case.  The TZZ is on the left (<---) the Remington on the right (---->.  As you can see the webs are damn near identical. The only difference I can see is the TZZ is slightly thicker in the portion that the primer flash hole is made which doesn't have anything to do with the web near the unsupported area of the case while in a 1911 chamber. The TZZ brass is better brass though, but definately not "magnum" brass.

Joe

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/06/2004 22:25:31)

Okay for you out there that want a heavy bullet for the 45acp, this is even better. It's a new round and gun called the Guncrafter Industries Mark I .50 GI.  Yup, that's right, 50 cal.  Lookes just like a fatter 45acp.  Shoots a 300 gr bullet at anywhere's between 875 and 900 fps depending on what load you buy.  Now that ought to do it for you wanting a harder hitting 1911.  It's in the Oct issue of Guns & Ammo.

 

Joe

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