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Title: 9.3x62.... Potential cast boolit shooter?
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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/01/2004 04:05:24)
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I noticed that CZ chambers this old cartridge in their 550 series rifle. I would be limited in jacketed bullets and thought a custom mold would be in order. Any experince with this caliber? Any ideas where a mold can be found. I think bullets diameter is around .366 or something there abouts.Thanks- steve
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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/01/2004 11:33:58)

Steve--

I have one of the CZ-550's (Lux) in 9.3 x62 Mauser, and to date it has been a VERY FINE cast boolit shooter.  It has also done good work with the j-word bullets. 

I bought the rifle with two venues in mind--as a nasty critter counter-measure, and as a cast boolit rifle.  My wife and I had a "close encounter of the furred kind"--black bear with bad attitude--and didn't like the comfort level the Redhawk x 44 Magnum provided.  I liked the power the 9.3 x 62 cartridge provided, and the fact that its magazine holds 5 rounds compared to the three round capacity of the belted magnums like the 338 Winchester in most turnbolt rifles.

It occurred to me that the caliber could do good work with cast boolits, as it has to you.  The CZ has a .367" throat about .300" deep, .366" groove diameter, and the lands are relatively tall--.007".  It is a 4-groove pattern, and my rifle has a metric twist that is about 1-14".  There has been commentary on a change to a faster twist rate by CZ to accomodate 320 grain bullets--you might give the company an E-mail on that subject if that's a concern.  FWIW, the company is VERY responsive to questions about their products.

There are several bullets out there for the 9.3's.  Easiest to find are the Speer 270's, Nosler has a 250 grain Ballistic Tip and a 286 grain Partition.  I have run the 250 to 2500 FPS with no pressure signs at all, and I think there's 100 FPS left to go safely.  The 270's get to 2400 easily, with the same comments applying.  A number of people report getting to 2450 FPS with the 286 grain Partitions safely.  These loads are just a little behind the 375 H&H/factory loads, which is nothing to sneeze at.  Bench rest work with such loads is.......impressive.

Which is a great segue to the positive aspects of cast boolits.  I had Dan at Mountain Molds (member and sponsor here) make one of the 9.3 mm molds he lists, a 270 grain flatnose gas check.  18.0 grains of 2400 gives 1600 FPS, all-day-long recoil, and groups hovering at the magic 1" range at 100 yards--1.25" five-shot groups are the norm.  In my rifle, the boolit's .600" shank kisses the rifling and fills the case neck completely.  This load isn't very far behind the 38-55's black powder ballistics, and that load has harvested its share of venison over the years.

Running this boolit to 2200 FPS doesn't expand the group sizes a lot, and some of that expansion might be operator-induced error due to recoil.  The 550 Lux is not a heavy rifle--when you drill out a .366" hole in a standard taper 24" barrel, there's not a lot of metal left to add weight.  It might weigh 8# empty/unscoped.  The single set trigger is a delight from the bench--VERY light indeed.

Friends on the board have donated castings from one obsolete Lyman plain-base design (for 9.3 x 74) and a couple NEI gas-checked critters.  These have all done very well with the 18.0 grains/2400 recipe.  I also received some paper-patch cores that I'm going to try soon--Lyman #358430 (195 RN) patched up did very well too, and were the first true cast boolits tried in the rifle--and my first success with paper-patching. 

I like both the rifle and the caliber a whole lot.

 

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Frank237
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 00:43:27)

The 9.3x62 is a well respected cartridge in Africa. A heavy bullet, with its attendant high sectinal density, at a moderate velocity, makes for arrow straight penetration. Despite a .375" minimum for dangerous game a few African Countries still allow the 9.3's as they flat work.

 I have one of the 550 Lux models and I'm very happy with it. Hope to shoot an elk with it next season to try it out.

 Where can one get .366" gas checks?  Are there any non GC molds out there?

 Deputy Al...... whats the mold number from Mtn Molds?? Any other info would be appreciated.

 

FN in MT

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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 02:39:56)

Thanks for the replies. What were you using for brass? I understand cases can be made from the 30-06 platform. Also understand that one of the 35's can be fire-formed also.

steve

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Frank237
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 07:06:19)

  Brass can be formed from .30-06 or .35 whelan cases.  But  Its even easier to buy 9.3x62 brass from GRAF's.

FN in MT

 

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 07:06:25)

Test post--having problems doing so.  It keeps saying I'm trying to flood/60 second minimum nonsense.
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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 07:13:51)

2nd attempt......the 9.3 mm boolit is listed in the Typical Designs section of the MM site--click on it and a dropdown bar lists the calibers.  Go to 9.3 and there it be at.  It was apparently designed by a poster at Accurate Reloading named "Eirik" in Europe.

The 9.3 mm boolits use Hornady .375 gas checks. 

My first brass was fire-formed Remington 35 Whelen, using J-word Makarov pistol bullets and a healthy amount of WC-852/fast lot to blow the shoulder forward the .100" inch or so.  Probably a better idea to get the Graf's made-to-order brass, which I did a few months ago.  The reformed Rems now get used for the light cast boolit work, and the Graf's for the full-value stuff. 

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RussB
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 18:36:14)

Reply to : Deputy Al

Test post--having problems doing so. It keeps saying I'm trying to flood/60 second minimum nonsense.

Test........Same problem here. Tried to post to Steve's first post, seemed okay on my end but no post seemed to appear.  Wish I was that 60 second speed demon!

Test.......Same

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RussB
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 19:36:12)

Well, How 'bout that sportsfans? Seems everything is fine. Sorry 'bout the interruption.

Russ

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Larry Gibson
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 21:24:13)

Deputy Al

2nd attempt......the 9.3 mm boolit is listed in the Typical Designs section of the MM site--click on it and a dropdown bar lists the calibers.

 What link are you using to Mountain Molds?  Mine is not connecting anymore.

Larry Gibson

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/02/2004 23:35:59)

I don't use a "link", per se--just the website address, www.mountainmolds.com

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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 02:33:43)

Thanks for the replies... again! Same old Shooters.com crowd... always most helpful. Anyways, I caught wind of a fellow from this site that custom casts bullets and he does cast a few 9.3 wieghts. Also found a new rifle that is available to me if I want it... CZ American in 9.3x62. Just gotta cough up dies, some brass and a scope. I would appreciate a source for cast bullet data as my Lyman manual doesn't cover this caliber.

 

Thanks.

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 04:35:50)

Steve--

As indicated in my earlier post, my "go to" load in 9.3 x 62 Mauser with the MM cast boolit (and a couple others) has been 18.0 grains x 2400, no filler or dacron.  This gets 1600 FPS and fine accuracy.  It is an all-day load, too--my 13 year old daughter can handle these easily. 

My next stunt with this round was to assemble some of the MM 270 grain castings and some of the NEI 280 grain RN gas check designs over 60.0 grains of WC-852/slow lot, which equates to the 4831's.  These left no doubt in the operator's mind that the primers functioned, no sir.  Speeds were around 2250-2300 FPS, and using the scope setting from the softer load at 1600 FPS--the point of impact was about an inch lower and 2.5 inches to the left.  One of those "mysteries from the dawn of time" involving recoil dymanics and barrel time, I suppose.  Groups ran about 1.75" with the MM boolit, and a little over 2" with the NEI.  Some of that dispersion could have been operator-induced due to recoil.  60-70 of those loads are enough for one afternoon, as are the j-word bullet assemblies.

Some of the older data for this cartridge (the late Frank Barnes in Cartridges of the World) shows jacketed 250 grain Barnes at 2600 FPS using 63.0 x IMR 4350, jacketed Speer 270's going 2550 FPS with 64.0 x IMR-4350, and 286 grain Barnes at 2500 FPS with 57.0 x H-414.  More modern data (Accurate Powder and Speer) aren't quite that intrepid, and some of that might be due to either lawyers looking on or predication for usage in hotter climates--like Africa.  I dunno.  The "go-to" powder in the j-word bullets seems to be RL-15, and varying amounts of that (none by me so far) show that 2450 FPS with the Nosler 286 grain Partition is safely reached by most shooters.  Properly placed, such energy will flatten any North American game animal forthwith.  It doesn't shoot quite as flat as the 338 Win Mag, but it holds two more rounds on board than most 338's without a refill--hence my choice of the 9.3 x 62 as bear medicine. 

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 04:43:04)

P.S.--Since the 9.3 x 62 is so similar to the 35 Whelen, data for the 35 could probably be used safely in boolits of like or similar weight.  I know, extrapolation is BAD BAD BAD, but if you shoot some of the weird metrics like I do--if you don't extrapolate you don't reload. 

The other general rule holds that cast boolits can safely use jacketed bullet data of same or similar weight.  Again, we're back to that evil habit of extrapolation.  Mea cupla magnissima.

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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 04:50:41)

Deputy Al- Thanks.

Glad to see 2400 as a possible cast bullet powder. Gotta turn the loads down some for groundhog hunting. Checked into Graf's brass and bullets, but I feel the 9.3x62 will be a cast lead shooter mostly.

Any hints or instruction on forming this case out of the 30-06? I have a boat load of that brass here. Would like to use it up. Thanks!

steve

 

 

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floodgate1
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 06:18:00)

Dippity Al:  It just dawned on me, after reading several months' worth of your posts on the 9,3 x 62, that I got a copy of a Cherman reloading handbook from the ASSRA Archives a couple of years back: "Wiederladen", by Werner Reb, 1984.  I pulled a xeroxable master copy and would be happy to run you a second-generation one, if you'll PM me your s-mail addy.  It's got lots of loading data, mostly RWS and Rottweil powders, but some US and Norma stuff (and almost entirely using US tools).  It's written in German, but is easy to follow (I had one year of German, 50+ years ago, and got through it OK), and there's lots on the 9,3 x 62 and a bunch of other meter calibers, as well as Redcoat ("Pommie". to B. A Wallace) and US cartridges.  I might could post a translation of the 9,3 x 62 stuff here or on Castpics, if anyone wants same.  [BTW, I'm starting a campaign for All-American shooting, at 10, 20, 40 etc., rods ("yards" is Brit-speak).  One rod (US surveyors' measure) = 5 1/2 yards, and 40 rods = 220 yards was THE standard American target-shooting range up well into the mid-1880s, and is close-as-makes-no-difference to 200 meters.  Etc., etc.]  And, while I've figured out what most of those "shorthand" abbreviations are (like BTW, ROFLMAO. and so on), I'm derned if I can figure out "HTH".  Help me, someone!  floodgate
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NVcurmudgeon
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 06:23:51)

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Dippity Al: It just dawned on me, after reading several months' worth of your posts on the 9,3 x 62, that I got a copy of a Cherman reloading handbook from the ASSRA Archives a couple of years back: "Wiederladen", by Werner Reb, 1984. I pulled a xeroxable master copy and would be happy to run you a second-generation one, if you'll PM me your s-mail addy. It's got lots of loading data, mostly RWS and Rottweil powders, but some US and Norma stuff (and almost entirely using US tools). It's written inGerman, but iseasy to follow (I had one year of German, 50+ years ago, and got through it OK), and there's lots on the 9,3 x 62 and a bunch of other meter calibers, as well as Redcoat ("Pommie". to B. A Wallace) and US cartridges. I might could post a translation of the 9,3 x 62 stuff here or on Castpics, if anyone wants same. [BTW,

Floodgate,  Glad to HELP.  HTH means "hope this HELPS". 

HTH, curmudgeon

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Frank237
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 16:13:39)

Ref: 93x62 load data

All sorts of data out there, from articles in Handloader and Rifle to several of the current bullet manuals. I have ALL of the articles and could make copies if needed, but Frankly the Finn Aagaard article; Handloader #199 ,is probably the best.

Nosler has data, as well as Speer, Barnes and the current Swift manual.  I have used both RL15 as well as H414 in mine. The only slugs I've tried so far are the old 270 Speers and the readily available 250 Nosler BT's. Just got some 286 gr Partitions which will probably be THE universal bullet for me in this rifle.

Velocities in the 2200 to 2300 fps range are about all a guy needs with the 286 grain bullet. The 270's at 2300 fps knocked my steel plates around very similarly to what my .375 H&H does with three hundreds. This guy appears to have the potential to be a great elk/AK moose cartridge.

FN in MT

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 18:23:21)

Frank--

I clean forgot about the "Handloader #199" article by Finn Aagaard--a very fine summation of the caliber's capabilities and potential.  I agree that the Nosler Partition 286 grainer is the single best j-word bullet for this caliber--once you start casting, at least.  From a price standpoint, the Speer 270's are tough to beat for a non-caster.

I can only imagine the havoc that 270 grains of flatnosed persuasion can wreak on a mangy Eastern Mojave jackrabbit at 1600 FPS.   

Floodgate--

I remember seeing ads for "Wiederladen" in "Handloader" a while back.  If it's not too much trouble, a copy of that material would be GREAT.  I'll send the s-mail address along directly.

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floodgate1
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(Date Posted:03/03/2004 19:00:38)

Curmudgeon:  Yes, that helps; TNX OM (Hamspeak from the '50's = "Thanks, Old Man")!  (My head just wasn't functioning, I guess)  floodgate
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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/05/2004 23:16:30)

Deputy Al,

PM sent your way in regards to the reduced cast bullet load. Thanks!

steve

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 03:18:33)

Third PM attempt went through--AOL kept kicking me offline. 
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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 03:30:21)

Deputy Al,

Got your message. Thanks.

My rifle came in yesterday and I brought it home today. Got three boxes of shells but didn'e have a chance to shoot it yet. Ordered some brass from Graf's. Hope to have some cast bullets in a week or two. What kind of recoil can I expect?

steve

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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 03:37:50)

The 286 grain bullets at 2350-2400 FPS in factory loads let you know the primers functioned--about like a 3" Magnum 12 gauge, or slug loads.  Maybe 250's in a 338 Win Mag.  Not a shoulder breaker, but firm contact with the buttstock is encouraged. 

I lit off a 270 Speer at about 2500 FPS with the set trigger a little before the expected departure time once, and that was exhilarating.  The bolt need not be cocked to practice with the set trigger, and I recommend some practice minus recoil with that little feature.

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 03:39:44)

The cast loads are an all-day recoil--I've run through 200 in a couple hours without discomfort.
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steve-in-kville
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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 17:32:20)

Forgot to ask, I'd imagine I would need an "M" die for the case neck but I don't believe one exists. Did you use another size like next "M" die size larger?

steve

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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 20:09:38)

Yer correct--no M-die or RCBS neck expander spud--yet.  I have used the 9mm Makarov expander die for this purpose, CAREFULLY running the case mouth up the stem until it touches the flaring bell, then giving it a little push to set a flare on the case mouth.  The problem is--the Makarov expander die is too short to allow the full length of the 9.3 x 62 casing to run up the die in the Rockchucker press.

Hey--just thought of something--I wonder if the expander unit from the 9mm Makarov die will fit into the expander die of the 45-70.........research report to follow.  Between the 38 S&W and now the 9.3 x 62, that RCBS 9mm Makarov die set has come in right handy.  It even gets used to process 9mm Mak ammo. 

Of course, I could have someone cobble up an expander die for the caliber--but how dull would that be?

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(Date Posted:03/06/2004 20:51:55)

So what you're saying is.... I'd have to use the expander from another caliber, which I suspected. What about the M die from the .358 or the .375? Couldn't back the die out enough so the .375 would just so flare the case?

steve

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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:03/07/2004 02:40:28)

I've used the 358 expander die from a 38/357 set, and it is JUST long enough to enable setting the flare on the case mouths on 9.3 x 62 cases when the press bottoms out.  I don't have any of the 375 calibers, but I have used the 25 caliber expander stem as you describe on 243 cases with good results. 

Was wondering.......are you set up to size/lube the .366" boolits?  If so, I'd be happy to send along some of the MM castings for you to test-drive.  I'll send them sized/lubed if you'd like--gotta figure a way to keep them from creating an unholy greasy mess, though. 

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(Date Posted:03/07/2004 03:12:19)

Deputy Al- Nope, not set up to size. Thanks for the offer. If ya can lube and size I'd be interested. Issue at the moment is figuring out how to expand the case mouths... might try the 358 expander and see how she works.

steve

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(Date Posted:03/07/2004 03:17:50)

After thought here.... Midway lists a M die for the 35 Remington. (358 diameter bullet) Think it would work better than the expander from the 38/357 set?

steve

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