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Title: 45nut's 311284..........
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BruceB
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 03:31:13)
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......has arrived safely at my hacienda. It's a 2-cavity model, and looks almost untouched. Coming off night shift at 0600 this morning, I had a wee nap and then fired up the foundry. I cast for slightly over two hours with this mould, meaning I now have about 800 nice examples of 311284 marinating at the bottom of the quenching pail. I pulled a couple of them out, dried 'em off, and measured the critical parts....and got a surprise. The bore-rider nose area measures just .298", and the bands run in the region of .308-.309". This seems to be rather undersize, and is disappointing to me. In my experience a .30 boolit sized around .311" has better chances of performing well in many of my rifles, and this particular mould can't meet that dimension. I did check my caliper against the 311334s I cast yesterday with EXACTLY the same alloy, temperature, casting technique and caliper, and the 334s measure .3125-.313". Ergo, the dimensions quoted are valid. My 1898 Krag NRA Sporter does extremely well with .309" boolits, so all is not lost by any means. I was hoping to try this 311284 in my #4 Enfield and a couple others as well, but at these dimensions it ain't gonna happen. I note that the mould is dated 1-01, and I'm wondering if Lyman is losing touch with what is actually WORKING out here amongst the Great Unwashed Casting Public??? A little too large is one HECK of a lot better than a little too small! I'll likely still try a few loads in my M1 Garand, but the Lee Enfield...??? Not much chance of that.
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starmetal
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 04:33:05)

Reply to : BruceB

......has arrived safely at my hacienda. It's a 2-cavity model, and looks almost untouched. Coming off night shift at 0600 this morning, I had a wee nap and then fired up the foundry.I cast for slightly over two hours with this mould, meaning I now have about 800 nice examples of 311284 marinating at the bottom of the quenching pail. I pulled a couple of them out, dried 'em off, and measured the critical parts....and got a surprise.The bore-rider nose area measures just .298", and the bands run in the region of .308-.309". This seems to be rather undersize, and is disappointing to me. In my experience a .30 boolit sized around .311" has better chances of performing well in many of my rifles, and this particular mould can't meet that dimension. I did check my caliper against the 311334s I cast yesterday with EXACTLY the same alloy, temperature, casting tec

Bruce

I posted this question in the ex-military thread but guess you never saw it so trying here.  Which Yuko SKS did you buy, the shooter or the excellent quality one?

Joe

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 04:40:36)

Reply to : BruceB

......has arrived safely at my hacienda. It's a 2-cavity model, and looks almost untouched. Coming off night shift at 0600 this morning, I had a wee nap and then fired up the foundry.I cast for slightly over two hours with this mould, meaning I now have about 800 nice examples of 311284 marinating at the bottom of the quenching pail. I pulled a couple of them out, dried 'em off, and measured the critical parts....and got a surprise.The bore-rider nose area measures just .298", and the bands run in the region of .308-.309". This seems to be rather undersize, and is disappointing to me. In my experience a .30 boolit sized around .311" has better chances of performing well in many of my rifles, and this particular mould can't meet that dimension. I did check my caliper against the 311334s I cast yesterday with EXACTLY the same alloy, temperature, casting tec

Bruce...ok on topic now.  I don't have any unsized 311284's but that doesn't mean I can't measure the noses on the sized ones.  My noses are right on the button at .300 and I would have to say the alloy is probably WW's.  Now I've been fortunate enough that all the 30 caliber rifles I've had and have are .308 except for my Krag which is .3095

I bought that mould in the early part of the 1980's and I bought it specifically for my Krag so that's telling me the bands definately cast over .308

Joe

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Bass Ackward
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 13:17:20)

Reply to : BruceB


......has arrived safely at my hacienda. It's a 2-cavity model, and looks almost untouched. Coming off night shift at 0600 this morning, I had a wee nap and then fired up the foundry.I cast for slightly over two hours with this mould, meaning I now have about 800 nice examples of 311284 marinating at the bottom of the quenching pail. I pulled a couple of them out, dried 'em off, and measured the critical parts....and got a surprise.The bore-rider nose area measures just .298", and the bands run in the region of .308-.309". This seems to be rather undersize, and is disappointing to me. In my experience a .30 boolit sized around .311" has better chances of performing well in many of my rifles, and this particular mould can't meet that dimension.

Bruce,

Same here.  I had to buy two to find one that would work.  Both were undersized really.  The one I kept throws the bands at .3075 to .3085.  If you role it on glass it wobbles.  The saving grace I guess is that the nose measures.3012 to .3016.  Funny because it shoots from about 1600 to 2100 just fine.  Go figure.

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Bass Ackward
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 16:54:29)

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I note that the mould is dated 1-01, and I'm wondering if Lyman is losing touch with what is actually WORKING out here amongst the Great Unwashed Casting Public??? A little too large is one HECK of a lot better than a little too small!

Bruce,

I totally missed this the first time.  This statement brings out the devils advocate in me.  Let's turn that question around.  Suppose Lyman, who continues to do research on this subject, is leading and not following and they have determined that in most modern guns that it is better to be closer to bore diameter than shoving 10 lbs in a 5 lb bag? 

In truth, my 311284 is the most consistent bullet I shoot in anything I've got.  Outta round and undersized and all.  Only the nose is a little large.  Is there a message here?  It holds less than an inch (way less) morning, noon, or afternoon.  No fliers.  None.  Summer or winter.  Nothing else I shoot has that flexibility without changing lube, or quantity of lube, or powder charge.  Something.  And coincidently, everything else I shoot, is bigger.

That outta kick open the barn door.

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45 2_1
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 17:13:47)

Reply to : Bass Ackward

               Only the nose is a little large

That is the answer to your consistent accuracy. Good alignment!

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elblerinnv
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 17:15:13)

Morning all. My 311284 is from the late 70's and recently cast .3095-.300, round, straight, and shiny, from 50/50 lino/ww. It has done this since the creation, and shoots marvelously in any '03 I have tried it in. Not so good in some commercial rifles. It would be more usefull if it cast a little bigger, but it doesn't, so the 31141 and Lee 180 fill the bigger is better role. Hope to get a fat 30 one of these days.

Ernie
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Deputy Al
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 17:33:43)

If I've learned anything on these boards over the past several years I've infested them, it's that conventional wisdom is often neither wise nor conventional.  More specifically, until YOU try a given boolit and load in YOUR rifle under YOUR conditions, all the predictions and prognostications about its performance aren't really worth a bucket of steam. 

Two extremes--first the 9.3 x 62.  Terra incognita as far as cast boolits go, but the case seemed to be cast boolit-friendly like the 35 Whelen--the twist rate (3 turns per meter, about 1-13.2") seemed pretty good, and it shot BIG BOOLITS at decent velocities.  I mean, what's not to like?  I rolled the bones, and damned if it didn't work VERY well with the cast critters. 

On the other hand, the 243 didn't seem to be a good candidate for cast.  My best luck with the caliber using j-word bullets was with the 90-100 grain bullets, and its 1-10" twist did not bode well for those dinky little long skinny castings. 

Au contraire, mon ami.  That Rem 788 in 243 may be my most accurate cast boolit rifle currently.  It's certainly in the top three. 

Since we are all pretty intense hobby cranks in this venue, I'm not too worried about laying out a buck or two to try out a given mold.  If it goes south in my firearms, and its design is otherwise sound, someone here will find a use for it.  Also, we exchange boolits pretty regularly around here.  One element of retirement I'm fervently looking forward to will be the time to correspond and exchange boolits more frequently with posters here.  The ability to do a LOT more shooting and testing will be nice, also. 

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MTNGUN
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 17:41:03)

"Suppose Lyman, who continues to do research on this subject, is leading and not following and they have determined that in most modern guns that it is better to be closer to bore diameter "

Bass, you're reaching.

Suppose Lyman, who continues to spec it's molds for Lyman #2 alloy, is following not leading and hasn't determined that most of us use wheelweights which casts smaller than Lyman #2?

Suppose Lyman and RCBS, who continues to claim that each 0.001" of sizing increases group size by 1 MOA, are following not leading and they have determined that their molds better not cast oversize because poorly made Lyman/RCBS sizing dies will damage the oversize bullets? 

Suppose we, who listen to what our guns say and not what some expert says, modify our sizing dies so they can size without damaging the bullet, then we determine that an oversize bullet could always be sized down if the need arises, whereas it's pretty hard to make an undersize bullet larger?

Just being ..... bass ackwards.

 

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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 18:15:22)

Reply to : MTNGUN

Suppose we, who listen to what our guns say and not what some expert says, modify our sizing dies so they can size without damaging the bullet, then we determine that an oversize bullet could always be sized down if the need arises, whereas it's pretty hard to make an undersize bullet larger?

Just being ..... bass ackwards.


Aaaammmmbush!

Uh huh, uh huh!  That's what I want to see.  Flames!  Not the diplomatic responce from Al.   

But .... what was your point? 

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Bass Ackward
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 18:33:03)

Reply to : elblerinnv


Hope to get a fat 30 one of these days.Ernie

Yo Ernie,

You gotta watch what you call a fat 30 around here.  Why to some guys, that is a 200 grain, 45 caliber pistol bullet.  Then they size it down and size it again and use it in a .375  Then it hits the sizer again and it's down to a 35.  Then spank it again and they have an 8MM.  Well, you get the idea.

One guy here, and I promised Joe I wouldn't mention his name, even takes it on down to 6.5 caliber.  Say's he is going to take it on down to 22 caliber, but .... he has to lick a leading problem he has first. 

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 18:33:26)

Reply to : MTNGUN

"Suppose Lyman, who continues to do research on this subject, is leading and not following and they have determined that in most modern guns that it is better to be closer to bore diameter "Bass, you're reaching.Suppose Lyman, who continues to spec it's molds for Lyman #2 alloy, is following not leading and hasn't determined that most of us use wheelweights which casts smaller than Lyman #2?Suppose Lyman and RCBS, who continues to claim that each 0.001" of sizing increases group size by 1 MOA, are following not leading and they have determined that their molds better not cast oversize because poorly made Lyman/RCBS sizing dies will damage the oversize bullets?Suppose we, who listen to what our guns say and not what some expert says, modify our sizing dies so they can size without damaging

Bass

I wouldn't say you opened the barndoor, I'd say you opened the hangar door to a Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet.

Dan

I would say I have disagree with your sizing accessment of every .001 increases group size by 1 MOA.  Remember when I took those .284 cast loverins and StarBucked (that's Starmetal and Buckshot's method of drastically sizing bullets down to other calibers) and used them in my 260 Rem and they shot half decent?  That's .284 down to .265.  Buckshot and I have sized alot of other calibers down also and you know that.  I think what you said was true of the old sizing dies that didn't have the tapered lead in and actually shaved the bullet and there might be some truth of it in some instances

Joe

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BruceB
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 21:35:27)


Joe, I think Dan is quoting the RCBS claim that every .001" of sizing increases groups by 1 moa, and NOT putting forth his own opinion on the matter. That attitude from the mould makers would damn-sure make it likely that their moulds will be undersize! I was also wondering if they're pushing their tooling life to its limit, perhaps using cherries that have been resharpened too many times, f'r instance. I believe that was their way of producing the special "undersize" moulds we could order from Lyman decades ago....just use a clapped-out old cherry one more time!

Now gentlemen, I am truly one of those who will try just about anything, having proven it here on many occasions with off-the-wall activities of one kind or another. ("Hold my beer and watch this!") With 800 of these 284s already on hand, you can BET that they will be experimented-with! In addition, the pot is heating right now so I can drain it halfway and then top 'er up with some lino for a 50/50 trial run, and after THAT there will be a run with straight linotype. (I am very fortunate to have a couple of pigs of lino, thanks to the generosity of our friend ben1025 who had them dropped here out of his shipment from Buckshot. MUCH appreciated, ben!)

Come to think of it, I'm gonna drain the pot of ALL the WW metal and go with 100% lino for the first try with other-than-WW. Then I can either drain the lino again for future use in its normal form, or do a trial with the 50/50 mix as mentioned. I've been sitting on this linotype for at least two years now, so it'll be nice to use some of it at last. I've shot TONS of lino over the years, since a friend in the Territories bought a print shop with (literally) many tons of the stuff in the basement. Most of it went down peestol barrels....what a waste. I'll let y'all know what the dimensions turn out to be in the other alloys.

If I get a 311284 of my own and it is sized like this one, I'd be strongly tempted to do some lapping, especially in the nose area.
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starmetal
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(Date Posted:08/26/2004 23:54:59)

Reply to : BruceB

Joe, I think Dan is quoting the RCBS claim that every .001" of sizing increases groups by 1 moa, and NOT putting forth his own opinion on the matter. That attitude from the mould makers would damn-sure make it likely that their moulds will be undersize! I was also wondering if they're pushing their tooling life to its limit, perhaps using cherries that have been resharpened too many times, f'r instance. I believe that was their way of producing the special "undersize" moulds we could order from Lyman decades ago....just use a clapped-out old cherry one more time!Now gentlemen, I am truly one of those who will try just about anything, having proven it here on many occasions with off-the-wall activities of one kind or another. ("Hold my beer and watch this!") With 800 of these 284s already on hand, you can BET that they will be experimented-with! In addition, the pot is

Bruce sir, I realize Dan knows so.  I was just mentioning that so newcomers to casting wouldn't get the ideas that sizing down alot is a big no no, which it isn't. In some cases that is the only choice you have in order to shoot a particular firearm.

You hardening up the alloy for that 311284 will make it's cast diameter bigger but you already know that.  Maybe that will get you in the ballpark of where you want to be with that bullet.

Joe

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BruceB
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(Date Posted:08/27/2004 00:24:42)


Yes indeedy...

Linotype bumps the dimensions enough to be worthwhile. I heated up the mould with a dozen casts, and then measured the next pair of boolits. The noses are now running .2995-.3000", which is a useful increase. They still slip easily into the Garand's muzzle IF the parting lines are positioned in the rifling grooves, but have to be pushed firmly if the parting lines are meeting the lands in the muzzle. Pretty close, I'd say. The base band measures .311, the middle band is at .3105, and the front band is again at .311".

I s'pose this will be a great reason to cast a bunch of lino boolits. It'll be interesting to compare results with the differing diameters between the alloys, as well. BTW, I cut the linotype pigs into pot-size pieces with my Black & Decker skilsaw with a regular "all-purpose" carbide blade. Works great, but WEAR EYE PROTECTION because the little lead chips really fly.

Joe, I ordered the VG-condition SKS this morning (finally!) What do you think about removing the bayonet and grenade-launcher????
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BruceB
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(Date Posted:08/27/2004 00:27:30)


Yes indeedy...

Linotype bumps the dimensions enough to be worthwhile. I heated up the mould with a dozen casts, and then measured the next pair of boolits. The noses are now running .2995-.3000", which is a useful increase. They still slip easily into the Garand's muzzle IF the parting lines are positioned in the rifling grooves, but have to be pushed firmly if the parting lines are meeting the lands in the muzzle. Pretty close, I'd say. The base band measures .311, the middle band is at .3105, and the front band is again at .311".

I s'pose this will be a great reason to cast a bunch of lino boolits. It'll be interesting to compare results with the differing diameters between the alloys, as well. BTW, I cut the linotype pigs into pot-size pieces with my Black & Decker skilsaw with a regular "all-purpose" carbide blade. Works great, but WEAR EYE PROTECTION because the little lead chips really fly.

Joe, I ordered the VG-condition SKS this morning (finally!) What do you think about removing the bayonet and grenade-launcher????
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elblerinnv
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(Date Posted:08/27/2004 05:40:05)

Bass,
Some folks do indeed get a little carried away with what can be termed a fat 30. Why, just yesterday I received four .45 rifle molds from Kywoodwrkr as his part of a trade we engaged in, and already I'm athinkin of an orderly progression of sizing steps to achieve .314". It's either that, or find a way to bump up the boolits from the Lyman 280468 that Idabull loaned me. Methinks he felt sympathy for my repeatedly unsuccessful attempts to buy one off ebay. There's gotta be an easier way.

Bruce,
I'm a little more shy that you about adding new molds to the assortment, but had I no 311284, I'd buy a new one. Especially if you like shooting the odd Springfield as much as I do.

Ernie
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starmetal
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(Date Posted:08/27/2004 06:00:43)

Reply to : BruceB

Yes indeedy...Linotype bumps the dimensions enough to be worthwhile. I heated up the mould with a dozen casts, and then measured the next pair of boolits. The noses are now running .2995-.3000", which is a useful increase. They still slip easily into the Garand's muzzle IF the parting lines are positioned in the rifling grooves, but have to be pushed firmly if the parting lines are meeting the lands in the muzzle. Pretty close, I'd say. The base band measures .311, the middle band is at .3105, and the front band is again at .311".I s'pose this will be a great reason to cast a bunch of lino boolits. It'll be interesting to compare results with the differing diameters between the alloys, as well. BTW, I cut the linotype pigs into pot-size pieces with my Black & Decker skilsaw with a regular "all-purpose" carbide blade. Works great, but WEAR EYE PROTECTION b

Bruce

I didn't remove mine and you know how it shoots.  If you don't care about keeping it original then by all means.  Remember the bayonet can be put back on but the grenade launcher sigts cannot.  They are riveted and there are instructions on the web for removing them.  The barrel part of the grenade holder I hear is very hard to get off.

This is the reason I thought about picking up another one and totally stripping it of all the junk.

Joe

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BruceB
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(Date Posted:09/07/2004 01:59:40)


In line with suggestions here, and having permission from 45nut to do it, I beagled the 311284 today and did some casting with linotype metal.

I used two thicknesses of the aluminum tape, one thickness on three sides of each mould half. Instead of just placing narrow strips of tape right on the faces of the blocks, I used much larger pieces which went from the desired position on the face (where the shimming action takes place)and wrapped right around the mould halves to the OUTSIDE face, that is, around two 90-degree corners. This works far better than the tiny strips on the block faces, which (for me) were forever leaving when I didn't notice them departing. Today I cast about 300 boolits without losing a single shim.

There was some "finning" or flashing on the nose area of many bullets, but it was just a couple seconds' worth of thumbnail time to de-flash them.

Results, from two bullets which were from the same filling of the mould (both cavities, in other words):

Bullet 1: nose .301-.3025; front band .3105-.313; rearmost band .3105-.314

Bullet 2: nose .301-.303; front band .3105-.3125; rear band .3105-.314

The gascheck shanks are now oversize and I needed the GC seater to get the checks attached. What is it with Hornady, that they ship a couple hunnert pieces of polishing medium in each box of gaschecks?

After sizing in a .311" Lyman die, the bullets are quite consistent with only a very few spots where the diameter is just a skosh below .311....it's gonna be interesting to see how the rifles react, particularly with the increased bore-rider diameter.
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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:09/07/2004 08:55:07)

..............."What is it with Hornady, that they ship a couple hunnert pieces of polishing medium in each box of gaschecks? "

I HATE that! I dump each and every new box in my case sifter to get rid of'em. PITA otherwise.

...........Buckshot
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akabeagle
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(Date Posted:09/07/2004 15:56:35)

Reply to : BruceB

Pretty interesting thread here and indicative of the quality that goes into Lyman moulds these days.

MIne runs right at .310 and the nose right at .302.  Too much for a tight Number 1 Ruger.  I resorted to ordering one of Eagan's taper .30T sizers and squeezed the noses down and it's  a shooter in the 30/06.  The tapered nose fits like a glove and if anyone is having this problem, I'd recommend this procedure highly.

Now, I'd make a trade but I've already HP'd it so it will stay in my stash./beagle

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starmetal
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(Date Posted:09/07/2004 16:18:35)

Reply to : Buckshot2

..............."What is it with Hornady, that they ship a couple hunnert pieces of polishing medium in each box of gaschecks? "I HATE that! I dump each and every new box in my case sifter to get rid of'em. PITA otherwise............Buckshot

Buckshot

Well, that solves a mystery.  Here I thought I was being sloppy with my cleaning media.  I too have noticed that problem with Hornady.  Gee, do ya think they vibrate clean their checks in media? 

Joe

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NVcurmudgeon
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(Date Posted:09/07/2004 17:52:26)

Reply to : Buckshot2


..............."What is it with Hornady, that they ship a couple hunnert pieces of polishing medium in each box of gaschecks? "I HATE that! I dump each and every new box in my case sifter to get rid of'em. PITA otherwise............Buckshot

Buckshot,  If you think the polishing media ia a PITA, try annealing Hornady GC.  They are coated with soe substance that turns into messy black flakes/dust hwen heated.  Maybe it's an ant-verdigris measure? Yuck!  curmudgeon

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Chargar
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(Date Posted:09/20/2004 15:58:29)

Bruce..Sounds like you got one of the old Lyman "U" moulds. If it is not marked #U311284, then the folks at Lyman let it slip by without being marked correctly. Lyman sharpened their cherries and when they got below spec. they made one more run of undersized "U" moulds before trashing the cherry. I have several Lyman 30 cal "U" molds and they cast out at the same specs you mention in the original post.  I have a DC U311467 that is very useful when boolits are cast of straight Linotype. The body runs .3095 and the top two bands run .300. Shoots like a house-a-fire!
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45nut
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(Date Posted:09/25/2004 23:01:37)

Reply to : Chargar

Bruce..Sounds like you got one of the old Lyman "U" moulds. If it is not marked #U311284, then the folks at Lyman let it slip by without being marked correctly. Lyman sharpened their cherries and when they got below spec. they made one more run of undersized "U" moulds before trashing the cherry. I have several Lyman 30 cal "U" molds and they cast out at the same specs you mention in the original post. I have a DC U311467 that is very useful when boolits are cast of straight Linotype. The body runs .3095 and the top two bands run .300. Shoots like a house-a-fire!

I sure don't remember seeing this marked as a "U" mold.  Must be one of the ones that was juuuuust so close.

A friday afternnon or monday morning mold? Interesting though. Using these boolits in my Krag I have had very satisfactory results banging away at steel gongs and such. Since my eye's don't really make paper punching a viable excercise I never did waste ammo trying to "group" them.I Love the Krag,rifle and cartridge both. 

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Levergun,SMLE,P-14 & Model 1917 and 1911 fan, Boolit Caster for all of the above. If they burn powder I want one or have one.

http://cast_boolits.aimoo.com/

ultramag44
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(Date Posted:09/26/2004 01:21:57)

Reply to : 45nut

Reply to : ChargarBruce..Sounds like you got one of the old Lyman "U" moulds. If it is not marked #U311284, then the folks at Lyman let it slip by without being marked correctly. Lyman sharpened their cherries and when they got below spec. they made one more run of undersized "U" moulds before trashing the cherry. I have several Lyman 30 cal "U" molds and they cast out at the same specs you mention in the original post. I have a DC U311467 that is very useful when boolits are cast of straight Linotype. The body runs .3095 and the top two bands run .300. Shoots like a house-a-fire!I sure don't remember seeing this marked as a "U" mold. Must be one of the ones that was juuuuust so close.A friday afternnon or monday morning mold? Interesting though. Using t
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