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Title: Discussion of a cast boolit for the M31, 8x56R Hungarian for the M95 Straightpulls
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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:05/23/2004 09:24:40)
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.........We can do it here. Re: nose design. As per my M95 conversion to the 30-40 when loaded with the Lyman 311284 seated out to fill the magazine, there was a noted failure to fully feed when the bolt was operated smartly (as in FAST). There were probably some mitigating circumstances here as cartridges with shorter OAL's didn't have this problem. The 30-40 case is longer then the 8x56R and slimmer. The long seated 210gr Lyman would stub it's nose on the breechface rather then funnel into the chamber. What we need to find out is just how far out of the case a bore rider needs to extend in order to engrave the lands. Plus an idea of the leade, and throat length is needed. As Oldfeller mentioned in his other post, a tapered first driveband behind the nose sounds like a good workable idea. .............Buckshot
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starmetal
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(Date Posted:06/26/2004 16:21:16)

Reply to : Tpr Bret

Just a couple random thoughts here.Buckshot- All the supply houses have "blank" 5C collets listed, usually in steel or nylon. Grab one and you can bore to what ever size your little heart desires and you're only out $8-10. bucks. My little Atlas can only take the Morse #2 collets with straight shanks. Again I envy you and your bigger lathe. My deal on the Leblond Dual Drive 15 incher is in limbo due to a shotage of funds.On the 95 Steyr- Can you really ask for a more perfect bolt action hunting rifle? Yeah. a real trigger would be nice, but the saftey is fine, the balance is fine, the length is fine, the cartridge is basically a 33 Winchester on steroids which is fine, the weight is great- other than finding a way not to lose the clips and adding a peep sight I see this as a bolt action 356 Win/358Win model 94/99 Savage/ 600 Remington. If I ever get m

Tpr Bret

I installed a Williams peep sight on my M95.  I forget what model rifle it was for, either a Win 70 or a Mauser, but I mounted it on the left side.  Only thing I had to do is the horizontal arm that the actual peep is on, I had to mill a slot in it so it would clear my clip when loading the gun.  I super polished the trigger mechanism and it's liveable.  If you have been following our threads on this gun I got my shooting two inch groups at 100 yds with the Lee 338 cast bullet. 

I had once bought a box of Hornady 210 gr .338 bullet that were made for the old 33 Winchester.  The are soft nose flat points.  I ran them through my sizer and brought them down to .330 and loaded them over some stout charges of H4895.  I got velocities that were very comparable to the wildcat .338-06.  You are correct in that it is a 33 Win on steroids.  You are also correct in that the action is stronger then is thought.  Look at those two giant locking lugs...and the one doesn't have the ejector slot cut in it like the famed 98 Mauser.  It is indeed a nifty little deer rifle.

Joe

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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:06/27/2004 03:27:03)

Let's see now, we have been discussing the 8x56 Steyr for several months now, both on previous threads then moving over to here for the "formal discussions" since 5/24/2004. 

I remember asking for final comments a while back before rolling up a proto-type mold order to hit about the same time as the Graf's brass, but my idea of "soon" has always seemed a bit different than yours, Buckshot.  To you, it was "too abrupt" -- to me it was waiting for days & days for any additional comments that never came.  I wasn't going to let all of Joe's good investigation work sit and leave Dan on hold too long, so I ordered a prototype aluminum mold and named it Frankenstein since he was stitched together from all our ideas.

Me, I'm not all that interested in a tapered band loverin.  But this isn't about me, its about designing good bullets.

Loverins generally shoot good groups, I will give them that.   As you guys carry forward it will be good to see what you come up with for a good loverin design.  You can count on me sending you some some monstrous proto-type slugs to play with so you can use them for fit-up slugs, etc. just as soon as they become available.

Drive on, drive on.  Consider Frankenstein a "closed story" and go on writing the next chapter of the great book of casting called "Loverin's Steyrish Affair".  After a scary monster story, a light story about true-banded love would be nice to read.  Lots of people like loverins.  You and Joe have all the experience with loverins to make it a real winner.  I sincerely hope you come up with something so good it makes a nice 25 mold run out of it.  (and I think you will)

Them bits & pieces Frankenstein monsters always tend to be one-off prototypes anyway.  Give him no more thought, he's just a big ol' flat-headed abby-normal bullet that can hit 25% harder than any pointy-headed Nazi out there (that's his job, after all, whupping Nazis and putting great BIG holes all the way through things).   

Heck, I'd spend more time worrying about if you can really out-group that fat-nosed standard LEE .338 slug since you are going after a target-type bullet design. 

That's your benchmark bullet for accuracy-type work, not ol' crash-a-big-hole-through-anything Frankie.

Oldfeller

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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:06/27/2004 11:40:25)

.........Tpr Brett,

"Buckshot- All the supply houses have "blank" 5C collets listed, usually in steel or nylon. Grab one and you can bore to what ever size your little heart desires and you're only out $8-10. bucks."

...........Yup, I oughta get a couple. However the other afternoon before leaving for work I cobbled a "Intercessary Emergency Boolit Holder Collet Thingamabob". Put in a 3/8" 5C and a piece of 3/8" stock 1" long. Faced both ends and drilled it with a letter Q (.332") bit, then used the jeweler's saw to slit it like a mini collet. It needs to be polished which is good because one of my .332" sized slugs 'just' won't go in. The idea is to stick it back in the 3/8" 5C. I didn't mark it for index, but if it needs it going back in I should be able to find it quick.

" My little Atlas can only take the Morse #2 collets with straight shanks. Again I envy you and your bigger lathe. My deal on the Leblond Dual Drive 15 incher is in limbo due to a shotage of funds."

...........A Leblond? Shortage of funds? Don't you have a spare kid you can get by without for a while? You're in Used Machinery Heaven up in your country. Bunches of dealers up in NJ, LI and Western NY. Of course they're here in So. Calif and freight would have eaten a back easter alive but Reliable had 2 really nice 14" Logans recently on E-Bay. Both variable speed and nicely tooled. One was tooled for production with the bed turret, etc. One went for $1385 and the other was about the same.

"On the 95 Steyr- Can you really ask for a more perfect bolt action hunting rifle? Yeah. a real trigger would be nice, but the saftey is fine, the balance is fine, the length is fine, the cartridge is basically a 33 Winchester on steroids which is fine,.........."

...........I'd made the comment that if I owned a big ole ranch it's be a toss up between a M44 Rooski or the M95 which would be bouncing around behind the seat. A 208gr slug from a 19.5" bbl'd M95 @ 2300 fps has some oomph to it.

"I really think this action is under rated, probably due to the fact anything with a Manlicher magazine looks ancient next to a Mauser/Win 70/Rem 700."

.........Joe mentioned some strength points I've also noted on the M95. Besides no ejector slot, both lugs are taller (deeper?), anyway more sq inches of contact. I had no qualms loading my 30-40 conversion right up to and a tad beyond book 30-40 data.

Guys are all agog with the Swiss K-31, as am I, yet the 95 Steyr is ignored. Good for us, too bad for them. Kinda like the '91 Mauser vs. the '95 Mauser. It's the magazine. Yet the same guys will buy a '91 MN Rooksie or a K-31, because they're cheap I guess, and rave about them even though the handle like crowbars, and overlook the mag hanging down. Weird.

...........I've always thought the extended magazine was kind of racy looking myself . I sure have no problem with it's appearance. Another project I'd like to do is to sporterize an old clunker M88 I've had forever. It's actually a decent shooter, but looks like it made a couple trips through a threshing machine. You know, butterknife bolt handle, Mannlicher stock, quarter rib on the barrel. Something like that.

Starmetal,

"The group pic is below. Let me explain"

...........Joe, bless your heart but you REALLY need to maybe think about doing some target upgrading . Our range sells nice targets on heavy target paper and they charge 25 cents apiece. A couple of us go together and buy them from the same company and with shipping they come to 6 cents apiece. I know you live in the woods and all but surely there's a copy place around that would Zerox some off for maybe 4 cents apiece on 20lb paper?

Nice shooting in any event. I'm glad to see that at 50 yards, and that's the truth. I think the 209 primer conversion is fine for banging around, but those shotshell primers must just be too much of a good thing or something. The boxer primed Bertrams will outshoot them load for load. I sure appreciate all the work you've done in your shooting tests. It must REALLY be nice to be retired! I gotta try that out one of these years. God! Everyday a Saturday, wouldn't THAT be nice?

Oldfeller,

"I remember asking for final comments a while back before rolling up a proto-type mold order to hit about the same time as the Graf's brass, but my idea of "soon" has always seemed a bit different than yours, Buckshot."

...........Well heck! I should let you talk to Donna so she can enlighten you on my interpretation of "Soon".

" I wasn't going to let all of Joe's good investigation work sit and leave Dan on hold too long, so I ordered a prototype aluminum mold and named it Frankenstein since he was stitched together from all our ideas."

...........Neither one of'em is a fish. They'd keep. A fine idea and bullet design too. More then one way to skin a cat. I really don't think it's going to matter one whit as to the boolit's design. We're banging our heads up against a set of dimensions that are all at odds with what a sane person would have set out for a cast shooter (or jacketed, for that matter). Which BTW I doubt the designers at the Austro-Hungarian munitions board cared one iota about.

They certainly designed in wierdness aplenty, but for a military arm that needed to be dependable and powerfull, they seemed to have done it.

The only problem with the M95 is the set of odd internal barrel and chamber dimensions. Well, the trigger kind of sucks channel water, but is a masterfull piece of engineering and machining. Other then that, the conversion I did to 30-40 and the accuracy it displays puts to rest any question as to the worthiness of the M95's mechanics as a whole. Of course, I've side stepped the whole 8x56R 'Dimension Thing' by re-barreling. Guess that's one way to do it .

............Buckshot
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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:06/28/2004 20:23:07)

As I have mentioned on other Steyr threads I have been playing around with trying to get a small handy-dandy scope mounted on the gun that isn't so durn big it completely overpowers the very short handy carbine length rifle.

In working with this, I keep stumbling over just how far forward the action is relative to the rest of the stock, excetera. 

I just had some thoughts that might make this all more "doable" and I thought I would send them along for your comments.

First, the gun ejects the brass off to the right side, just like a mauser does.  If it weren't for the 5-in-a-clip up top loading you could over-bridge the action with a fitted Weaver rail just like a mauser action and it would work just fine.   Scopes could snuggle down nice and low to the action and be there on-center for the correct eye to use, just like a normal gun.

Next, it is possible to load an empty clip into the bottom of the gun by pushing the empty clip up from the bottom.  The mag pusher rod won't put tension on anything unless there is a round in place, of course, so you have to insert a round into the clip after you get it up into the gun for it to stay in place.

Once the clip is held in place, it is possible to load the rounds into the clip one at a time.  It is a bit awkward to do this if you have a low on-center-line scope bridging over the gap, but it is a very do-able thing for a nimble fingered person to do.

Next, whatever small style scope you mount over the action is going to have to have long eye relief similar to a "shot-gun scope".  

Why, it goes like this .....

No normal eye relief small bodied scope is going to work for you as you'd have to have it hanging way back off the action just about half its length to get your eyeball close enough to find the vision field.  Not only would this mounting style be mecanically unsound during normal handling, but such normal eye relief mini-scopes would immediately eat your eyebrow upon firing from the large amount of recoil the 8x56 cartridge can generate in the light carbine rifle.  

Plus it would look very very wierd ....

(and that's normal recoil with 200 grain slugs, much less what a full-bore loaded 250 grain slug's recoil could do to you).

Any long eye relief pistol scope could go forward of the loading cut-out just fine, but it would take a VERY long eye relief shotgun scope to go in the same location and still work OK.  Such larger optic higher magnification scopes are not cheap, expensive names like Burris keep coming up for this very long eye relief capablity.

I'm still struggling and thinking -- does anyone have any really neat ideas (other than mounting a peep sight?). 

I am thinking about ways to affix a modified clip so it stays with the gun at all times, this could render the gun just like a single stack "mauser" as far as single loading rounds underneath a center-mounted scope would go.

Oldfeller

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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:06/29/2004 03:24:02)

Well, forget about leaving a clip in place and single loading into the clip from the top with a on-center scope in place.  You have to tilt the slug bullet up and slide it down butt-first into the clip which is pretty tough to do with a low mounted scope rail in place.  You can do the first 3 rounds with using some preserverance, but after 3 that the "magazine" gets too full to allow the next one to tilt down enough to slide in place.

Eye clearance from back of the action to the standing eyeball is seven inches.  Cheap extended eye relief scopes have from 3 to 4 inches of eye relief built into them.  This means the scope must hang out past the action to the tune of 3-4 inches (or about at the start of the rear sling loop).   Mocking this up looks very very odd again -- the scope is too far back to look normal.

Shortening the stock (and mounting a butt pad on it while doing so) is an option to get your eyeball in closer to a normal-looking scope mounting point.  But in doing this, you would discover the reason for all this long stock clearance room in the first place.  Clack that bolt straight back fast and if you DON'T have 7 inches of eyeball clearance you will run out of probiscus clearance and you will whack your probiscus right smartly with the butt end of the bolt. 

Ouchie,  ouchie,  ouchie .....

So, we are back to red dot scopes, holoscopes and full-sized 12" long extended eye relief scopes that are mounted towards the back side of an off-center mount.

There is NOTHING about a Steyr rifle that is easy, is there?

Oldfeller

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45 2_1
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(Date Posted:06/29/2004 14:45:22)

Kelly-

 Go over to Parralex View and look at Darrels scope mounts. He might be able to come up with one for the Steyr.

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Tpr Bret
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(Date Posted:06/29/2004 15:42:19)

I see 3 solutions other than the pivot mount-

1. Long eye relief Scout type scope. I think they come up to 4x, maybe higher. Probably the best, although most expensive solution.

2. Weaver off set scope mount, ala Winchester 94 top eject. Any scope you want and it doen't have to be flopped out of the way like a pivot mount.

3. A good receiver sight and a Lyman 17 up front with apertures. Size the target/aperture for best viewing and try to squeeze that "trigger" off.  If you're not an iron sight shooter, be prepared for some work of the training end. This is one gun that I think would benefit tremendously from a tight military sling.  Again, if you never had the privilige of attending Parris Island High or a similar institution of higher education, be prepared for some training and "sling palsey".

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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:07/01/2004 12:17:48)

............Oldfeller, scope the M95 with a LER pistol scope. A 4X Tasco isn't much dinero. For the mount, bridge the rear sight/action ring with a Weaver type base. D&T one hole in the reciever ring and make a block to fit in the rear sight in place of the leaf/elevator assembly. D&T into this to accept the front of the Weaver base. If ya wanna get real fancy make the front sight block and scopebase of one piece.

The M95 Steyr HAS been altered to accept regular stripper clip loadng sans packet clip. It's in the M95M 8x57 conversions. Mausers and others have the feed lips milled into the action rails. In the case of the M88 Commission and the M95 Steyr the feed lips ARE the clip lips. Just like in most any other box magazine fed firearm. But you know that.

Depending upon the available room in the action legs (that extend down from the action) it may be possible to alter to fit, the top end of a box magazine. Maybe. All you need is the feed lips to be retained. Since I don't own any more M95's I want to sporterize, this isn't really a hot button. However, I did buy a bunch of BAR Mod 'D' 20 round magazines some years ago. These are for the Belguim produced version of the BAR (metric) but still for the 30-06 cartridge. I bought these for possible alteration use in my Hakim. I think cost was like $5-$7 each at the time.

............Buckshot
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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:07/03/2004 00:52:35)

Joe, that picture looks like a smaller intelligent (round headed) version of old Frankie boy, bore rider band tapered shoulder and all.   Looks like a nice little bullet, it does.

CDNN Investiments (cheap scopes to the world) and Cabela's (lots of stuff to the world) both stock extended eye relief scopes in the 4x range for $44 or less.  Either could go on my machined up off-set mount and work OK, it just will look 1) large and 2) off-set back and to the left and a bit odd and 3) would still use my left eyeball for sighting which feels odd to me.  The $29 Cabela's 4x (smaller scope) only has 3 inches of extended eye relief.

Weaver tip off rings with a notched to clear the hole rail over the top mount could also work, but you'd still wind up a full length shotgun type scope mounted back a bit over the rear of the action to get close enough for even extended eye relief shotgun scopes to work.

CDNN Investiments also offers a rip-off of a Bushnell holo sight for $79.  Anyone ever used one?  Are they worth a flip ????   Can they take some handling abuse or do they get knocked out of whack easily ????   This looks like it may be the best way to keep the gun looking good and clean.  Put it forward of the cut-away over the front round section, with the small low weaver rail bridging over the air up to the front sight.

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/taspmiparesi.html

So, I'm still trying to dope out an optical package that will work for this gun.  So far a small open holoscope like this $79 rip-off of the Bushnell Holosight seems to be the best thing I have seen so far.  How accurate they are is a thing I can't speak to since I have never used one.  They in essence project an aiming reticle out in space that you "center" your target aiming point into.

Oldfeller

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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:07/13/2004 19:58:03)

This will mount a shotgun style long eye relief scope and still allow the stripper clip to load a set of rounds correctly from the top.  I can still use my right eye (a proper view perspective) and the scope is so tucked in and low that the front edge of the front optical bell is touching the upper left hand corner of the standard steel rear sight.  It doesn't look too weird, either.  It doesn't look normal being both off-set and rotated over, but hey, still not too bad.  Uses Weaver standard low rings.  Cost of raw parts was $26 (not including lunch-hour machining work, of course).

Oldfeller

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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:07/13/2004 22:46:27)

............Looks good!

........Buckshot
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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 04:09:22)

Ok, first the scope mount and scope sitting on the rifle dodging a freshly loaded clip ....

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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 04:14:50)

Next, a quote:

"It was a dark and stormy night.  Lightning blasted the iron rods lining the old stone tower  ....."

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Buckshot2
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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 08:00:25)

............Ooooooooo kewl, ya got'chr mould from Dan ! Ao tell us about the slugs. WHat do they weigh, size etc. On that scope mount thing, I've used and discarded the rubber band method of scope attachment. Duct tape is no real improvement as it attracts dirt and crud. I can heartily recommend hose clamps. I imagine a 3" and a 2" hooked together will hold it nicely.

...........Buckshot
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Oldfeller
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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 19:19:21)

Rubber bands are highly recommended only using the following rail mount alignment procedure. 

Pull the bolt and set the gun in a workmate with the bore pointing at a red paper dot located 90 yards away.  Center the colored paper dot in the vision circle obtained by squinting down the bore.  Lock the workmate down so the red dot stays centered when looking down the bore.

Run all the scope knob settings to the middle position (nominal no offset position).  Lightly coat the scope mount radius with slow setting 2 part epoxy.  Settle the mount and scope into position carefully and apply first large rubber bands to hold things together while epoxy oozes around a bit.  Peer through scope and see how close to the dot the crosshairs are sitting.  Check the view through the bore and the view through the scope and tweek it so they are the same (perfect alignment).  Use more rubber bands as needed and keep checking frequently (and adusting) until the epoxy begins to set up good.

Wait several days, take off the scope and drill and tap the scope mounting rail with hardened taper headed machine screws.  For some odd reason, your first shots hit fairly close to the bullseye and you only require minor scope adjustments when you put it all back together.

    Sounds good, doesn't it?  Actually, I think bungee cords and duct tape BELONG on experimental Frankenstein guns ....

Frankie weighs 226-227 grains buck naked without his clunky hob-nailed boots.  With check and lube, he will likely go 235 grains.  His dimensions check out as designed with the exception of overall length which is .050" short of the goal number (which in and of itself is no big deal as aluminum molds tend to get the top surface refaced a few times during their lifetimes anyway and the check shanks and the OAL get shorter and shorter as you go along). 

What is interesting is that the gas check shank mounting portion's boss length as shipped is .003" short compared to the depth of the 8mm Hornady gas check, such that the gas check grip edge falls over into the gap when installed (allowing the check to flop around as "snapped on").  I wonder if the 8mm check will close down enough on this short boss when sized to .338" diameter (close enough to gain a firmly seated crimp?) but I will find out as soon as my .338" H&I sizing die makes it in. 

That gap in the front portion of the gas check has never been part of my designs but apparently Dan puts them in all his molds.  Since the instruction was to "fit an 8mm  Hornday gas check" the gap thing was within Dan's discretion and he did show it on his proposal drawing.  Oh well.

Hindsight being 20-20, the length of the "seating portion" that actually mounts the check likely needs to exceed the grippng depth of the gas check by enough distance to allow a few refacings of the aluminum mold blocks before the gripping edge of the check falls over into the gap and things begin to slop around after the intitial "snap on".  

Admittedly, Frankie is a freak who uses a check that is relatively too small for his sized diameter and most normal 8mm bullets would neither see nor care about this very minor check shank undercut clearance thing.  If this was a normal .323" to .325" type 8mm bullet this would all mean absolutely nothing as the check would get sized down a gracious plenty in the sizing die to firmly crimp on and stay in position. 

But Frankie is only going to see a few thousanths of gas check sizing close down when sized to .338" and only .004" more per side (.008" total) when he makes the trip down the bore.  So his gas check shank is somewhat more "clearance sensitive" if it is going to get a good intital crimp. 

If Frankie's possible Loverin bretheren ever get cut to mount an 8mm check then the gas check shank needs to be a simple straight (or straight tapered) shank as shown on the design with no undercut distances to have to be worrying about.

But that is why you do prototype molds, to find out these unexpected wee little niggling small details before finalizing your end design ....

Oldfeller

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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 20:32:10)

 

 

Igor !!!   Put his shoes on his feet correctly and tighten up his laces nice and tight so his shoes quit flopping around on his feet like that! 

If that big lummox falls over and can't get back up again I'll rearrange your hump for you !!  No excuses !!   He has a hard enough time walking by himself anyway without having floppy shoes.

What?  His shoes don't fit right?  Idiot, you've got them on the wrong feet !! 

See, the left shoe goes on the left foot and the right shoe goes on the ....... 

   ........  Igor, why does the monster have two left feet???  

No, don't you be blaming me -- if they were sewn on backwards you could blame me.  You were the one who got the parts from the graveyard, not me.  You are equally responsible on this one, buddy.

Alright, we will compromise -- go get me another left shoe right away .....  and if you don't find one that fits him correctly on the very first trip I'm sending you up in the spark cage the very next time it thunders !!!

Humph!!

Left feet, right feet .....   Details details details ......  no wonder I can't get anything done !!

Inga, sweeting, come rub my aching head  ..... 

     .... ooooh .... sweet fragrant soft Inga ....

       ....... come with me darling, the spark cage --- it needs adjusting again ....

 

                                     (making scientific progress is such hard work)

 

Herr Doktor

 

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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 22:46:40)

Joe, I haven't sized them at all, I just snapped them on.  Believe it or not, those "floppy shoes" always were and still are properly snapped on the short shouldered end boss on the gas check shank.  You can tilt the check over that much with one edge riding over into the gap that is cut in the upper part of the check shank.

Do you want to hold the mold before or after I start lapping it out with comet?  Right now it produces beautifully accurate dimensions and ZERO flash.  The bullets both stick on the side opposite the sprue plate and will drop free after several firm taps with a wooden rod and the finish on the inside of the mold still shines like a mirror.  The top surface of the mold is in absolute virgin shape, too.

None of these things will last for long if I start using it.  Even very pretty molds like this one, I wil screw with trying to improve them.  I will Comet lap it until it releases "100% drop on opening" and I will start adjusting the gas check shank to hold the 8mm check better using a stop-bushed .302" reamer to cut the check mounting boss length to be a consistent "wee tiny bit longer". 

It will wind up tweaked real soon, with some mild out of roundness, tiny edge flash etc.

You want to hold it before the Monster gets to it??  Actually, until my sizer dies and 8x56 Graf brass get here I will not be doing a whole lot with it, so you can have it before it gets that big white streak painted in its hair .....

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH !!!    

Oldfeller

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(Date Posted:07/18/2004 23:54:11)

Oldfeller, the checks fit perfectly when I tested the mold.  What is the shank diameter of your bullets?

The stepped shank works fine for me.  It gives the crimp of the shank a little ledge to hang on to.  Idea is, the checks go on quite easily yet it takes effort to remove them, due to the ledge.  I'd suggest you actually try sizing and shooting a few before you get carried away with modifications.  Just a suggestion. 

Check fit is a matter of personal taste.  Some people seem to think that, if you can turn the check with a pipe wrench, then it is too loose, however, I have not heard of any tests that showed a justification for this concern.  My own tests have shown no difference between a check that could be spun on the shank vs. an extra-tight check.   Personally, I like it when the check goes on with light finger pressure, yet doesn't fall off when you pick it up.  

The cavities are perfectly centered and the bullets dropped out easily for me.  No doubt lapping will improve release, because it enlarges the diameter adjacent to the part line.  You do give the mold a tap before you seperate the halves, don't you?

I hope it shoots well for you.

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(Date Posted:07/19/2004 03:36:02)

Oldfeller,  forgot to say that you are welcome to mail the mold back to have the shanks opened up a hair, or lengthened, or recut for 338 checks, if you like.   Not a problem.
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(Date Posted:07/19/2004 04:38:38)

Dan, the shank is .3023" there abouts and fits as you describe, the check scrapes the retaining edge over the short boss surface and pops in on the free space in the shank groove.  If this is a feature you put into the mold intentionally, count me as "uneducated" as I discovered it when I was trying to take pictures and the check kept moving around on me as the slug rolled on the scanner glass bed. 

I'm not used to seeing that happen (silly me).

I am more accustomed to slightly tapered check shanks that ride the check edge on up the taper until the insertion movement stops, then the edge digs in naturally a bit and nothing ever moves again.  Such taper shanks provide very good grip when sized as the check is belled open somewhat by the taper insertion and the check/shank junction has no free play as inserted (it is actually under some postitive tension on the barb edge as it is first installed).   The sizing die immediately buries the edge barb completely then pushes the open bell mouth into a more staight format making a postitive embed into the lead shank.  Same thing seems to work with the "snap on" straight shanks as well, except they can be a bit harder to start the check compared to a well fitted tapered shank.

==========================================

Dan, talk to me about tapping on a mold BEFORE you open it.  What do you tap it with, and where do you hit it?   And why.  Don't forget the theory behind it.  There must be some functional theory about this, so what is it?  This must be a cast iron block type trick as beating on ordinary aluminum molds tends to shorten their life spans.

I've always fixed aluminum molds so they didn't require any hitting at all, just open it up and the slugs fall out freely.  Sometimes this does require lapping to the point that roundness is lost to a half-thousandth level right at the parting line, but I guess I always valued the complete ease of use more than the half thou of roundess. 

Maybe instead I'm going to have to learn how to have my cake and eat it too.

No, I'm not going to send the mold back -- that's silly.  It is an experimental prototype and was born to be screwed with.  We will play with it the way it is for the moment anyway. 

Eventually, I can borrow a reamer from the tool room (or get them to order one if they don't already have the .302" size) drill a hole in a one inch piece of aluminum bar stock, ream it with the reamer, drill and tap a brass set screw and voila -- a custom reamer stop guide.  The existing boss acts as the guide for the tiny bit of exposed reamer and I dial in a little more boss width with just a tiny bit of hand pressure and a half a rotation. 

Comet lap spin a freshly cast bullet to even out the cavities and I am done -- both drop free casting and a check fit I am more familar with.  And note, I still get to keep your nice snap retention feature (at a half-thou interference level anyway).

=========================================

Joe, you should plan to use your own lead -- shipping the mold costs me less than shipping you the 20 bullets.   Plus if you like them you can have a thousand or so Frankies for the same shipping cost.  Monstrous, isn't it?  Plus I am going to rook you into shipping it on to Buckshot instead of shipping it back to me -- it will make the rounds then come back at the end with me only paying to ship it once.

If I cast the bullets, I have to spend the sweat and the lead and do all the culling, etc and then I get to pay all the shipping costs to everybody.  Not a good idea.  Nice try though.

Oldfeller

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(Date Posted:07/19/2004 07:35:38)

...........Oldfeller, I'd defiantely like to try the mould 'as is'. You can PM me for my address and I wil re-imburse your shipping expenses. I'd like to cast some up against the day that Graf sees fit to ship the boxer primed brass. That way I'll have 3 cast slugs to play with. Those from YOUR mould, the RCBS 338 and the Lee 338.

...........Buckshot
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(Date Posted:07/19/2004 14:56:58)

Buckshot, reinburse me by shipping it on to Joe when you are finished with it.   That way everyone only pays one shipping charge as the mold makes its rounds.  Ol' Frankie is stomping your way.    Arrrrrggg.   Uuuuuhhhh.

 ....... hide your women and your cigars ......

Oldfeller

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(Date Posted:07/19/2004 23:28:43)

Quick, Frau Brucher !!!  (neighhhhhh...) Go get your violin and coax Frankie back into the lab !!!  

No, tell him he can ravage Buckshot's and Joe's woman three times each sometimes later on this month, give him a un-lit cheap cigar to chew on and buckle him up tight in the spark cage. 

Inga, Igor quick -- gettenze the comet powder undt der cordless drrrrill undt der thread mounted lead slug  -- Ve hass verk to do !!  Mach snell, mien volk, to the laboratory !!!   To the laboratory !!!

Tonight, we cast ......

Graf's is shipping my brass TODAY and they have agreed to include a Lyman .338 H&I die with the shipment (for a moderately small $4 bribe beyond what I would have paid to Midsouth)  and since I already have met the minimum order with the brass I didn't even have to threaten them with a pitchfork or wave a torch at them either.

Oldfeller

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(Date Posted:07/20/2004 10:24:24)

..........I heard. Blackpowder Bill posted that it was in stock. I think you're both joshing. We'll see!

.............Buckshot

BTW, That was Frau Blucher with an umlout over the U geputten.
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(Date Posted:07/20/2004 22:47:18)

Buckshot, I'm sorry but you forgot to "neigh" when you said her name  --  so now you gotta go kiss her old ugly hairy nose wart   ..........   yuck  ............   (gag)

(sorry, them's the rules there, old buddy)  

I didn't make them sorts of rules up, but now you know why everybody in the movie was so darn careful to neigh whenever they said "------------"  (neeiiigghhhhhh ....)

I always remember to neigh (or else avoid her name completely if possible) -- that was one seriously ugly violin playing Chloris Leechman type character. 

I always kinda liked Terry Garr's Inga character though.  I'd kiss her on her nose any day.

Feldman was a hoot and Mel Brooks was one crazy dude who has made a lot of funny movies, but none were better than YOUNG FRANKENSEIN.

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(Date Posted:07/21/2004 05:48:07)

I got my phone call today from Graf's also. They needed a new CC# as they one I had put it on back order with had expired. 400 brass coming.   Mark
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(Date Posted:07/22/2004 06:15:29)

Yeah, folks who have really old 8x56 Steyr Graf brass orders are going to be disappointed if they don't call in and check on them soon to make sure the order isn't lost or card expired or whatever (you name it, we keep hearing new ways to lose your order). 

The first container load was 10,000 pieces of brass supposedly with more to follow.  I'd be happier to get mine now instead of having to wait for future container loads that may take forever to get here.

===============================================

Frankie's feet are too small (being fixed as we speak) and now we find his snozzola is designed too small also.  Once you get your slugs in try loading a few and you notice the rifling never even touches the bore rider nose at the current .320" bore rider diameter.  Wear on the land tops, I suspect.

Jams up good on the taper (that taper part works real good) but it doesn't touch the nose at all.  This means the slug could load a tiny bit misaligned on to the taper if it isn't touching (being guided by) the rifling lands as it loads.

Put some white out (typing error corrector) on the bore rider section (don't get any on the taper) let it harden good for a hour and then drive the case on home to engrave over the hardened white out.  It gives you a easy to increase "measurement durable surface".  Measure over the rifling marks, mine came out .323" even.

I see the bore rider nose diameter needing to go up to around .323"-.324" to get a proper set of rilfing marks on loading.

What do you guys see on your guns?     Mine is old and well worn, yours are newer guns.

Crazy Mark, you want some fit slugs to try out in your gun?  PM me with a snail-mail address if you do. 

Playing around with old Frankie is a lot of fun, you just gotta remember to plug him up to a wall socket to recharge him every night before you go to sleep. 

Oldfeller

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(Date Posted:07/23/2004 06:44:08)

old feller,

Thanks for the offer but I have the following moulds I have been using: 338320, 33889 and a saeco .336-210 PB. I have beeen using 45/70 reformed brass and reusing the berdan primed brass.  Now I can use the right boxer primed brass. My test with reformed 7.62x54r wasn't good.   Mark

 

  

 

 

 

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(Date Posted:07/23/2004 07:44:18)

Starmetal,

   at .335 to .336 depending on my alloy. I have made a die to add a GC shank to some PB bullets and may make one for this one. I am also working on modifying a cannulare tool to do the same thing.  It's a #558 Saeco. Buffalo Arms still lists them.   Mark

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(Date Posted:07/23/2004 07:58:06)

Starmetal,

   you can make one out of a .325 sizer die.  I made .331 and .332 sizer dies. I also made a Lee.339 just because out of a .323 as they were out of .338 ones..  Mark

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