There are some pretty darn good paper patching articles and information in the NRA Cast Bullet Book too. That's where I learned to make them for my 7x57 Mauser. Like 45_2 _1 says, you won't believe how accurate they shoot.

Joe

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1.  Paper Patching with smokeless powder.You notice that most rifles and handguns have a difference between bore and groove of about .008". You need to pick a patch paper that will increase the bullet diameter by that much.

 2.  I hunt with mine and do not load but about 1500 fps in the bigbores and up to 1800 fps in 25 to 30 caliber. If you want to go faster you will need a stiffer alloy.

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45 2_1,

I appreciate the time.  Still, I have two questions and then probably a plethora of comments. 

1.  If I understand the first line you are basically saying that the paper has to be as thick as the rifling is tall by diameter?  I have a couple of guns in the .014 range.

2.  I have forgotten most of what I had read from 30 years ago on this, but I think this was THE problem area.  Yes I want to go faster, so .... what IS a stiffer alloy?  Think of this in the screw up mode, how stiff is TOO stiff?  I was using AC WW at the time. 

My belief then was that I could not shoot ACWW conventionaly without leading.  And that turned out to be incorrect.  Now I can shoot 10 BHN to the velocity levels you list and a little higher.  I have even considered brewing up some of Joe's lube to try and go faster with 10 BHN.  Seems that the lead at that hardness is ductile enough to pass through without breakup judging from the exit wound.  I never can recover a bullet.  And because neccessity is the mother of invention, and since I didn't learn to paper patch, I believe that I compensated by learning how to adjust my bullet speed to match my hardness and meplat size to produce the desired results.  (as long as I avoid joint bones.)   But I clearly can't use pure lead effectively...... yet.

But with softer metals, cold weather stiffens my lubes to where they actually deform my bullets going down the bore and ruin accuracy.  This is at higher velocities.  I want some trajectory and thus range.  Understand this, I personally won't use Kentucky windage on game.  If I can't shoot for a spot, then I don't shoot.  Personal quirk.  I am going to try a new bullet design to try and eliminate this accuracy problem when cold weather testing resumes this winter.  Also, I have a hair brained idea that if this works to be able to push a pure lead nose behind anything else I want to use and have it stay together.  Previously, when I did use pure lead noses, the bullets broke up.  I knew this because I had two exits.  Effective on deer, but excessively so limiting your shot options.

But this thread has made me think about true requirements.  The blood trail thing is a problem to my area.  Someone in an area with less deer would have far less trouble tracking and could simply follow "the" trail.  Someone out in Kansas might simply sit down and fire one up a watch a deer run until it don't.  That person might have a different view of what is .... acceptable performance. 

So if we don't understand something about anatomy of game and think about how our bullet might be performing on that anatomy, how in the world can we make the necessary adjustments or offer any recommendations to someone.  You don't want to over simplify this to the inexperienced.  And you don't want to complicate it to the point that they won't even try.  So..... the REAL problem is how do I / we consider this and learn or teach others to perform this task.   Toughie.

45 2_1, thanks for your time.

I worked in an office supply store for a while during undergrad school, back when you typed things on typewriters, not word processors or computers.  Cotton bond would not jam a Correcting Selectric, or even a Mag Card.   Twenty five per cent cotton was pretty much correspondence quality paper.  Hundred percent was the real classy stuff and was expensive.  Carbon copies were made, on either onionskin or what were called second sheets, which were basically newsprint.  Since the cotton bond does not work well in computers or copiers, it is hard to find.  I did find an office supply about five years ago where I bought a ream of 8 1/2 X 14 hundred percent cotton, twenty or twenty four pound, (I don't remember which) for about half the price it was back in 74.

A customer came in the store where I worked one day and insisted on buying seventy pages of second sheet paper.  This stuff is about the lowest grade paper you can imagine, and normally the store would not break the ream to sell individual pages, because we knew we would never sell the rest of the ream.  I tried to sell him a ream, but he just wouldn't buy one, so I asked him if a penny a page was a fair price, and he said it was so I sold him 75 sheets for 75 cents and he left happy.  The ream would have cost 55 cents.

The paper we use now has a lot of acid in it left over from the manufacturing process, and deteriorates.  A few years ago I looked at a will written in the 1880's, the paper and ink looked as though it had been written the day before.

This might be useful.

http://www.southworth.com/dealerlocator.php

Bass,  just post the picture and the specifications here on the list where everyone can see your remarkable performing bullet.  If you can't post the picture, send it to me at Oldfeller@access4less.net and I'll post it for you.  The folks who need to get in touch with me already know how, and no, I'm not related to you.  Your uncle is though, and you are probably correct in your estimation of his opinions. 

Oldfeller

Bass-

 For 0.014" divide by four = 0.0035" paper. Try 12 or 16Lb paper and mic the thickness. To go faster, just what caliber, speed and bullet you want to try?

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Bass-For 0.014" divide by four = 0.0035" paper. Try 12 or 16Lb paper and mic the thickness. To go faster, just what caliber, speed and bullet you want to try?

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45 2_1,

Try?  You mean I actually have to try?  Can you hear my knees knocking?

I have an old 03A3 that is probably a solid candidate for this effort.  It must be fate, because while we were cutting up deer today, my cuz came in and said I have some lead for you but God only knows......   Well the secret is out.  Total is about 700 lbs of pure lead.  So I guess I have no excuse now. 

Woopie, another project.  I have an undersized 311284 here that runs about .002 outta round.  Maybe I can size the stuffing outta her and make her smarten right up.  This gun has a .300 bore / .308 groove  with about a .311 throat that run close to .392 long.  Performs real well with 50 grains of RL19 and 14 BHN.  That is close to 2300 fps.  Got any ideas?

Thanks,

Bass

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Bass, just post the picture and the specifications here on the listwhere everyone can see yourremarkable performing bullet. If you can't post the picture, send it to me atOldfeller@access4less.netand I'll post it for you. The folks who need to get in touch with me already know how, and no, I'm not related to you. Your uncle is though, and you are probably correct in your estimation of his opinions.Oldfeller

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Kelly,

Wouldn't bite on the 8MM Butt Buster huh? 

Well, I can't deny you.  It's on it's way.  My Uncle got a deer, but ..... it's nothing out of the ordinary, so I won't rile you up with another ..... report.

How's the hunting down there this year.  Do they still allow the use of dogs and 5 deer limit?

Here is Bass's picture of his 35 Whelen bullet.  The bullet is consistent compared to the size of the gas check (counting the gas check as .358" diameter) which would put this one as being right at Dan's maximum length at 1.050" for his two up blocks.  You can spot the rounded shouldered grooves from a Mountain mold.  The bullet should logically weigh a bit more than 250 grains if this is so.  Meplat size would dope out to being .250" or close to it.  

Bass launches it with 47 grains of Reloader 15 which does not equal the 56 grains of Reloader 15 which is needed to do 2,400 fps with a 250 grain bullet (a conservative "starting load" from Richard LEE Sr's second edition).   Bass should be able to do 2,400 fps though, within book listed loads (using a slightly heavier bullet even) using more of this same Reloader 15 powder -- so his velocity claimed is reasonable assuming he can get that much powder in the case behind that big bullet.

It is a nice looking bullet with very good proportions. 

It would be nice to know the real numbers for the bullet, length, weight, meplat etc instead of having to guess.

There is more to come as soon as I switch computers and get some ballistics calculated --

Oldfeller

I have an undersized 311284 here that runs about .002 outta round.  Maybe I can size the stuffing outta her and make her smarten right up.  This gun has a .300 bore / .308 groove  with about a .311 throat that run close to .392 long.  Performs real well with 50 grains of RL19 and 14 BHN.  That is close to 2300 fps.  Got any ideas?

 

Yeah, I do. Maybe one of those new fangled metal patched bullets. Seriously, your treading on shaky ground trying to start there. If you want to shoot that fast, you will need to get serious and buy a proper mold for 30 PP that cast at .301". Most 30 caliber alloys distort badly when sized down that much. Try a lighter bullet that has narrow drive bands to size down. A excellent example is the NRA Cast Bullet book that has Col. Harrisons PP in the 300 Win Mag. It is detailed enough to provide all the details for you to accomplish what you want to do.

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It would be nice to know the real numbers for the bullet, length, weight, meplat etc instead of having to guess.

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Kelly,

How does .... what ever, do on longer range deer?  Why don't you lay things out?  I know you guys can get 5 a year down there even if they are smaller.  Success and or failure.  If people don't want to read it, they can pass over it.  I may be wrong, but I figure that guys read about hunting with cast bullets to hear .... about .... hunting with cast bullets.  They can punch in their own figures.  And when they see your figures what do they mean?  What can they expect to see real world?  Experience on game can take years to get if you are limited to one a year.  All the ballistic programs in the world are just figures until matched to a visual effect. 

I remember you talking of killing Elk.  How many Elk have you shot with your wide meplat design?  My guess is that it will work fine, but you will have to slow it down to about 1800 fps if you want it to hold together or harden the hell out of it and avoid shots with potential to strike large bone.  Obviously, smaller diameter bullets are weaker than wider diameter ones.  Add that to the superiority list.

That bullet in the picture was designed about 6 months ago.  Two have been designed since.  I can't remember what I ate for breakfest yesterday.  It is a Mountain Mold.  Bullet appearance comes from the mold material.  That mold was aluminum.  Brass is better for 35 caliber.  My new brass mold / bullet design throws 100% yield and they are sharp and flawless.  That's my cold weather test for this year.  But I do remember that that bullet is one diameter at .360, .997 and the meppy is only .216.  That's 60%.  I won't go much above that for a rifle bullet or I should say a bullet wanting to run at rifle speeds because soft (14 BHN) lead won't hold together at closer ranges if meplats are wider.   They also break up faster on joint bone.  You can go wider if you are in 45 caliber because you have the bullet diameter for strength, but then 50% is what I run there so I don't over shock at higher velocities.   If I am working a wheeler or at handgun velocities, then 70% is the maximum level where I reach for a bigger gun.  Just my experience.

Lee's book is way hot for the 35 Whelen.  56 grains is over 2550 fps for cast in my rig and you need larger primers after that.  Accuracy is losy at about 2 1/2".  In fact, I can't hold an inch with that bullet above 2250.

That load was my target load.  What did you think of the group?  Best that rifle has ever shot.  It's normally is more in the 1/2" class.  That load runs just over 2000 fps and I jacked it up to 48.5 to hunt with.  That produces consistent 3/4" groups and runs about 2180 fps.  According to your program, that gave me 1500 fps out to 200 yards.  I suspect that program is a little off on calculating BC because real world drop was less than projected.  Lined in two inches high at 100, it is only 4, let's call it 5" low at 200.   That projects out to about 1700 fps at 200 yards.  Quickload, which I have no idea how it calculates BC,  projected 5.5" which was much closer to center of mass.

Surprising thing to me yesterday when I was cutting up my deer, was that there was so much damage from shock.  Even though the holes weren't over 2" max. (From reading your post it sounds as though I need credibility here?  Thank you for providing it.)   Coagulated blood gave more the appearance of a jacketed bullet strike.  Even with the longest shot there was still an area about 10" around the wound.  So I can step the velocity up just a little more and lose a little on the front end limit or in my situation just cut the range back to a more realistic 175-200 yards.  I just wanted to stretch it to see worst case what to expect.  Remember: this is my first medium bore experience with cast.  For a larger animal, I would have to cut back on velocity even more and then that target load should do fine.

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Kelly,

I just read your comment on the other thread about the 4" hole.  You get to know alot about a man's personality and his hunting background by comments he makes when he is emotional.   

One minute you don't want to hear about game reports and then the next you are poking fun.  IF you want to know, ask.  Both deer were shot at the base of the neck without hitting bone.  This was to give every opportunity for them to bleed just in case you asked.   That is how shock can work against you.  I have anticipated your remarks before I did the test.

The deer were driven by someone else into us.  During the confusion, they froze.  Have you ever hunted deer?  Haven't you ever seen this?  In fact the entire group stayed there after the second one fell.   They were disoriented.  Could have shot more.  They remained in the area all through the gutting process and I saw them several times until they broke up and scattered.  When I finished gutting the first deer I stood up and was wiping my hands looking around the area.  15 to 20 deer were sighted during that time. 

The way our property is located, deer driven from other properties funnel into ours.  It's not uncommon to see heards of 50 does at one time.  Want to see caos and confusion, shoot one in the group.   Do you think they immediately scatter?  Why didn't you question Waksupi about him shooting his Elk and the heard not running off or did you think he was lying too?

You really need to get out more often.  

 

Bass, the most deer I have ever seen at one point in time was one buck, 3 mature does, one yearling doe and two fauns.  Ever. 

I spooked them taking my rifle off my shoulder and they were bouncing over the fence at the other end of the field before I could even get a shot off.  This is typical North Carolina hunting. 

When we did organized deer drives using dogs or people we always use shotguns and buckshot because the deer are bouncing along like fast moving rubber balls as they move right smartly past the stand areas. 

Obviously you are blessed with extraordinary hunting circumstances.

Oldfeller

Bass

Interesting, I to try to shoot my deer at the base of the neck.  I've found they go down quicker when shot there then the classic behind the shoulder shot. 

Bass the deer down here in TN and NC are different in the way they act as compared to the deer up in PA and OH.  You know all the products out for masking your scent, like special soap, and stuff to descent you clothes, and scents also to attract deer? And the techniques about being super quiet, not smoking while on your stand, don't pee near where you will hunt, if the deer smells you before he sees you it will take off before you see it?  Well that all applies down this way.  These are truely wild deer.  When I lived in ohio we called the deer tamed. Shit you can make all kind of noise, smell like a hobo, not use attractant scents, heck ever shoot at the maybe two times or more before it runs.  I'm hearing that alittle bit from you about the PA deer now, but you are calling chaos.  Bass deer that live in farm country, such as you are hunting, act waaaaay different then TN and NC mountain forest deer.  You really have your work cut out here.  In TN you can harvest up to six deer but only in select counties.  I live in southeart TN, 4 miles from the NC border, literally in the mountains.  Now the easy shooting and easy to get deer are mostly out near nashville, and that is out in middle or west TN.  Totally different terrain there, mostly flat and woody.  This where I live is very mountainous like W. VA except the mountains here run in the 7000 elevation range.  No dogs for deer hunting in TN and if I'm not mistaken NC either.  I think one of the states that allows it is Alabama.  You are allowed dogs for bear here but just two separate seasons.  From living all over the country NC has some of and the most (as in alot) strictest laws in the country. First sign you see on my mtn road that crosses into NC is MOTORCYCLES MUST BURN HEADLIGHT $1000 FINE.  Funny, most other states are concerned whether you wear a helmet or not.  Anyways different hunting here Bass.  You're foutunate to live where deer are abundant and large....they sure are good eating.

Joe

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Around here the deer I see are along the roadside, about ready to jump across the road.  They all look like a version of Bambi to me.  No, they aren't plentiful like they once were.  It appears they have been culled to some extent, but the talk around this neighboorhood is hunting turkeys more than anything else.   That will change, though, after they are thinned out.  This is in northwestern arkansas.

The folks in southeast missouri imported pheasants from nebraska in exchange for racoons about 30 years ago.  We used experienced linemen to capture the coons, and I participated as a fireman's net holder under a tree.  The lineman would grab each family member out of a high tree hole using his special gloves and throw them down into the net below. I don't think southeast missouri allows heavy duty pheasant hunting as of yet because there is just not enough cover there for ground bird families to grow large.

... felix

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Here is a deer anatomical page that traces the major nerve trunks and arteries in a deer's neck.  A lower neck shot will llkely cut some of the major arteries to the brain, damage the windpipe and impart some shock to the neck spinal nerve chord.   Take a look.

http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html

Oldfeller

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BassInteresting, I to try to shoot my deer at the base of the neck. I've found they go down quicker when shot there then the classic behind the shoulder shot.

Bass the deer down here in TN and NC are different in the way they act as compared to the deer up in PA and OH.

You know all the products out for masking your scent, like special soap, and stuff to descent you clothes, and scents also to attract deer? And the techniques about being super quiet, not smoking while on your stand, don't pee near where you will hunt, if the deer smells you before he sees you it will take off before you see it? Well that all applies down this way. These are truely wild deer. When I lived in ohio we called the deer tamed.

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Joe,

I am retired military.  I could throw a rock for 12 years and hit Kelly's house.  I hunted NC deer.  And I fed NC deer bread, by hand.  Just .... like here.   I bulit a house up 401 about 10 miles out of Spring Lake.  Can't remember the name of the development now.  Lots of deer.  Sometimes 15 to 20 in my back yard which was up against woods.   " I " can't honestly say they are any wilder / tamer than those here, but you might be right.   There is no sport in doe hunting here.   No luck.   Bucks are about 1-50.  Those are hard to come by.  My cousin nailed a 225 #, 145 class 10 point this year.  It was nice.  Only buck we shot.  The rule, you shoot it, you mount it.  That leaves a lot go by.

Kelly's deer are smaller yes.  And maybe enough so that Kelly could have formed some of his meplat opinions from those.  Smaller deer are harder to kill with cast.  In truth, I didn't use cast in NC because of time.  I was glad just glad to be in the country and have time when season came.   When I did, that was fast shot, lever country. 

And about the neck shot.  As I told you guys, I knew what to expect from that loading.  Shot several deer from all angles.  Cuts the same size whole everywhere, but it won't put them down reliably.  I have had deer go just as far as those factories you used behind the shoulder and you could have thrown a soft ball in there when you found them.  5 or 6 years ago, Dad shot one around lunch time one day right behind the shoulder.  I bounced her the next day on the other side of the hill and finished her off.  Same deer because she had a white leg.  My point here was origionally to tell about the 35 bore and HSV (high strike velocity) cast.  Then this turned into how you need to think differently with high velocity cast.   Based on my experience, I thought this was a worth while discussion.  I am lucky to get enough testing to form opinions.  1500 fps strike velocity and less is one thing for lead.  There everything works performing as everyone expects cast to be with the key phrase being, bigger and wider is better and softer is king. 

When you go above that strike velocity level you enter a whole new realm.  The metal reacts differently.  What your adjustments need to be require understanding.  A neck shot right at the base of the neck with that 45 load and they hit the ground now.   That is the only angle that does it everytime.  Again with .... that .... particular .... 45 caliber loading.  They don't stay down, but they mostly won't go as far as other angles shots either.  I didn't want to lose the deer, but still prove a point.  The neck shot eliminates variables because it still cuts a 4" hole, you are close enough to shock the brain, you have to hit arteries, etc.  So there are no excuses.  Then when the deer don't bleed or die right away, I ask why?  You saw, Kelly didn't believe it.  I am sure he wasn't the only one.  He was the only one with emotional involvement to say I lied.  There are plenty of others reading this thread with experience, but they are not chiming in.  Most of them either agree or they must believe I am crazy or lying too.  But no matter, regardless of their opinion, they HAVE TO THINK about what is written.   

A big hole can mean nothing just as a little one can have a reverse effect as it did below. 

I can't tell you the physics or anatomy of how something will work on game.  I can try to predict.  We have too.  But I have a long list of what failed and understand why it did.  When something works, I have shot enough to tell that it performed better than something else.   It is obvious.  I did massive HV work with 30s for years to try and find something that worked reliably for deer.  I couldn't.  No angle, no weight, no meplat size.  Even after going down to an LBT spitzer design to try and slow the expansion.  There wasn't enough bullet diameter there for strength at HV once expansion started.  And not enough weight if it broke up.  And it starts really quick at HV.  The 8MM bore is just as close to 30s as it is to 35s.  I know 30s fail miserably at HV.  Does the 8MM have enough strength from bullet diameter to hold up?  Kelly says yes.  OK.  I ask under what conditions to be sure?

So what bore diameter is the cutoff?  In 30s, you have to hold strike velocity down or maybe paper patch soft lead.  Thanks to 45 2_1, looks like I get to try again.  But I am not as entheused now that I have seen this 35.  My 30 is going to become a 35 shortly.  That's how I feel about it.  Ric is using wide meplat WW on heavier game and it held together.  He used it on a bufallo too.  So it seems 35 has the strength of diameter to offer some flexibility at HV if you NEED a wide meplat.  Would the 8MM hold together as well as a 35?   It not possible.  Is it a large enough diameter?  Who knows.  But that won't be found on a computer screen or in an impact program. 

Right now, these two 35s have knocked off 14 deer.  The neighbor kid put his Mod 37 Win 20 ga. aside to try my 35 yesterday and he gut shot one.  Perfectly center of body, so you can realize it was 8" - 10" from her back bone.   She did the flop and plop right there.  Boy was I surprised.   Almost no exit hole (bore size) indicating that either there was A.) no expansion or B.) the bullet spent all it's energy.  She had to be put out of her misery of coarse, but she never moved.  The surprising answer was B.   When we dress her out, no strike of bone occurred anywhere and her back was broken from the shock.  Send that one in to Ripley's because I never saw shock like that before with anything.  And still have a small exit hole!

The only thing I, me, myself, can take away from this year's experience is that I have found something that works.  And darned well for my circumstances.  The performance levels here have been better on a consistent basis than anything I have seen or used before for what ever the reason in my lifetime.  And that includes jacketed from all angles.  Sure a 243 with condoms wins with broadside shots.  But broad side only.   We can talk about it here or not.  I lose no sleep here or gain any benifit.  I sell nothing off of this board.  But this board is for hunting with cast.

My neighbor raises deer and elk for hunting shows.  Because he emotionaly can't, he may need the services of the 35 this year for one if he has another broken leg or something.   Next fall I try moose and will see if this performs as well there too.   I already know the 45 excells there at HSV.   Bigger game and strength of diameter.

It just might be that the 35 has the right combination for 200 # class animals and that's it.  Who knows.  We will see.  But up until this year, the most consistent deer killer caliber from any angle has been the 44 Mag. if I didn't need range.  The 35 compares well to that and pushes the range out to where I need it. 

The fun of deer hunting for me was ruined years ago.  You get tired of killing.  Now it's just necessary work for the meat.  Because they are so plentiful here, we have added extra rules.  Don't shoot a bedded, feeding, or sex crazed deer.  Don't shoot a mother with fawns.  Don't shoot the albinos.  So to add some difficulty, we only shoot what we jump up ourselves unless we are testing like here.  That has been the fun for me this season.  Otherwise, it's just work. 

   <And I fed NC deer bread, by hand.  Just .... like here.>

============================================

Now Bass -- since you are talking about the deer that I take pictures of in my back 40 and post on occasion on this list -- I don't feel too bad about correcting your obvious nonsense.

Did you notice all the shots are taken from a set back position through a french door (all glass panes type door)?

That's because I am well back in the room, away from the door.  I am in the unlighted "dark area" well behind the glass door from the deer's eyeball perspective.

Let my wife (or her little buddy dog) go near the glass door and a doe's tail flips up and the deer are GONE within the count of three, all of them, even the stupid yearlings. 

Best place in the house to view backyard deer is back behind a head-high lace curtain window in our master bathroom, and even then you sometimes you spook them if you move the lace curtain around too much when trying to get a picture through the gap. 

====================================

You notice I have never posted a picture of a buck?  He stays back in the woods and will not come out in the open even after dusk. 

These are the "tame" neighborhood deer.   Woods deer are worse.

And these are the deer you fed by hand?

Right -- at the Fayetteville petting zoo.

Oldfeller

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Right -- at the Fayetteville petting zoo.

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As Ronald Regan would say, "There you go again".

As Walter Chronkite would say, "That's the way it was." 

Boy Kelly, are you sure you aren't from Missouri? 

A deer is a deer is a deer as I see it.  The charateristics are the same.  They are a product of their environment.   

If you feed anything enough, it settles down and eventually will eat out of your hand.  My son was still at home and loved to feed them in NC.  The dang deer used to run out  of the woods when they heard the back door open.  You couldn't open it slow enough or quiet enough.  I've had them follow me through the yard when I was mowing the yard.  They would hang around until you DID give them something.  Just like here. 

My neighbor raises large deer.  Wilford, (after Mr Brimley) is 27" inside and almost 20 high this year.  Magazine material.  He's always been penned close to the house to prevent theft.  When he wants attention, he lays down, rolls on his back and .... you guessed it ..... barks   (I'll bet you think I'm lying again.) because he wants his belly scratched.  He saw the german shepard get attention that way, and by golly, he wants his fair share too. 

On the other hand, if you stumble through the woods here, pee by your stand, wear bright orange in archery season, you won't see deer either unless they are a long ways off.  We have friends that come in now for muzzleloader season which comes in after this from Washington and Oregon.  Very few hunters for that season.  Last year was their first year.  First guy comes in after being out all day raving about all the BIG deer!  Huge deer!  Deer out the wazoo every place you look!  His life long hunting buddy comes in later and says the woods are dead.  Saw lots of sign, but never saw a deer.   Huh? 

These deer get wild too after they have been shot at several hundred times.   Which is more tame / wild?  That is .... another subjective, isn't it?  Why do you think I need more range if all I needed was a club?   

You guys say it's deer in the south, OK.  You know how I hate to agitate, it's deer in the south. 

But if someone offered me money for a correct guess, I would guess the wildest deer would be those in an environment that had constant predation and saw little of humans.  That could be 30 miles from here in the mountains where they have heavy cyote and black bear populations.  Much lower numbers of deer.  Or Maine maybe.  Or out in Wyoming / Montanna.  But we have no preditors here, except for the ever dangerous car-imus-wrecky.  

My point was that if you ask me which is the most spooky, I have seen both sides and I would find it hard to say.   We have one running around over 24" inside if he has still made it.  You see him all summer long, but he vanishes come September.  We never see him during season, but the low life #$*@ always sheds his horns in the orchard just to irritate me come January.  Gonna name him, .... Kelly.

Gotta go.  Time to try and pet a big one.      Here deery, deery, deery.

But if someone offered me money for a correct guess, I would guess the wildest deer would be those in an environment that had constant predation and saw little of humans.  That could be 30 miles from here in the mountains where they have heavy cyote and black bear populations.  Much lower numbers of deer.  Or Maine maybe.  Or out in Wyoming / Montanna.  But we have no preditors here, except for the ever dangerous car-imus-wrecky.  

Bass

You just named where I live. In fact the forest on this mountain is second in thickness to the Rain Forest and is cataloged as a Rain Forest, not for it's amount of rain, which it gets alot, but from the 100's of different species of tree frogs, vegetation type, and other vermin.  The deer are hunted hard here by black bear, coyotes, wild dogs and poaching hillbillys.  Most skiddest deer I ever set eyes on. Remember last bear season they shot a 410 pound male 150 yards from my mailbox. I don't think Kelly lives too far from me and bacically all that separates us mostly is this mountain.  You see that later version of The Last of The Mohicans? That was filmed in NC, to give others that haven't been here, ever, an idea of the kind of mountains we're dealing with here. I know you lived in NC. Highest mtn in PA is Mt. Davis 3400 some feet.  The mts through KY, TN, and NC range 6000 to high 7000's.  These deer here are capable of becoming tame as you mentioned.  Guess I've been shooting so much on my range they are use to as one I was shooting and a doe come out near my target, looked back at me and then lay in the grass about 25 off from the target...all this while I'm blasting away.

Joe

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Don't throw the majority of Montana into the mix. There are mostly pretty much tame deer inmany parts.

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Ric,

Seems like every other one of those TV hunting videos talk about cats, yotes, and bears.  Maybe all that negativity is countered by all them cowboys singing to the herds. 

Anyway, my tame deer here managed to skunk me today.  I did see an ol'timer here that couldn't get his tines up any more.  Looked like moose horns.  Genetics here are mostly wide racks.  This poor guy had a worse time trying to get around with his arthritis than I did.  Seemed he still had his mind on procreation, so I let him go about his business. 

I got enough meat and information to ponder for one year.

Joe,

So Joe wins the wild deer contest.  But maybe the deer aren't wild?  Maybe it's the thin air up there.  P.S.  Don't you be thinkin about ridin that excuse.    Goin to send ya a PM.