Crowkiller - I've been shooting WW RB for over thirty years. If there is any problems with them, I have never seen it. I'm shooting some high dollar custom rifles, and wouldn't use them if they would harm the bore.

Cast them to a size that a short starter isn't needed. The old timers didn't use them, neither should you, unless you are shooting a heavy bench rifle with a false muzzle. I can press balls into the muzzles of my rifles, and smoothbore,  with my thumb.

Round ball will not obdurate to any great degree using any proper service charge. Your patch is what controls the internal windage.

The WW ball has the added advantage of better penetration in game. I've never heard any complaints from deer or elk using them. The only complaints are from people I out shoot.

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Can wheelweights be used effectivly for casting .530" roundball? I know I can cast one, but will it load easily and obturate in a muzzleloader? I normally shoot a .530 lead ball with a .010 patch that loads and shoots well over 100 grains of FFG and a felt "bore button". I also have a lot more wheelweights than lead.Thanks

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I've been using WW round ball for some time, several years in fact,  and found no ill efects to my rifles, if that's where your concerns are.  There are a lot of "old wives tales", and plain untruths surrounding Muzzleloading, and they get bigger with each telling. WW make dandy round ball, they shoot just as good as the patch will allow. 100gr FFg is a bit on the stout side for accuracy in my own .54's, but many shooters like it, and do quite well with it. As far as obturating...RB obturate very little anyway, at least the ones I've recovered and measured, it's the patch you need to worry about. The "harder" ball can cut the thinner patches if there is a rough spot in the barrel.

Russ

I'm going to make a suggestion on your load.

Try 3F, first off. Start at sixty grains, and go up in 5 gr. increments. I top off for best accuracy at about 80 gr. in a .54 as a rule.

Use pillow ticking patch material, that has been washed enough to remove all sizing. I've never seen a commercial patch that was worth much. Weave is too loose.

Then my final recommendation is to use Moose Milk lube, which is one part water soluble machinist oil, to 10-12 parts water. You can shoot all day with no fouling using this combination. Plus, when you buy a gallon of the oil for maybe fifteen bucks, this means you have 10-12 gallons of cheap patch lube. I did some pretty serious testing on ML patch lubes some years back for a magazine, and this was the one that won out.

"I  have also found that Minie' bullets can also be made of a harder than pure lead alloy and shoot very well. This depends on the thickness of the skirt, charge and the rifling form. "

Yep, So have I.  Buckshot....You have mentioned, in prior posts, your using the 575213PH with good, to excellent results. This is the one boolit that has given me gray hair in my .58, and I think it's because of the "too thick" skirt. When I have that thing loaded for bear....meaning arount 100 gr FFg, it is like shooting a 12 gauge from the bench and, of course, it's harder to shoot accurately when it's knocking the living daylights out of you, but I do believe it is more accurate, assuming the shot breaks just right. I guess I'm just too big of a sissy to get the full benefits of that load.

Jim Webber, and Ric (Waksupi), have mentioned "dipping" round ball in lube, and shooting  sans patch. Don't know that I'd do that with WW alloy.....although I just might give it try, after I give it a try with pure lead. Moose Milk, as described by Ric, is far and away the best patch lube I have used. That little bottle only costs about 8/10$ and will surely last a life time.

Russ

"Jim Webber, and Ric (Waksupi), have mentioned "dipping" round ball in lube, and shooting  sans patch. Don't know that I'd do that with WW alloy.....although I just might give it try, after I give it a try with pure lead. Moose Milk, as described by Ric, is far and away the best patch lube I have used. That little bottle only costs about 8/10$ and will surely last a life time."

Russ, I don't ever recall giving that info. I have dipped balls in mildly soapy water, to keep them from oxidizing, but not for lube, itself.

the only real experiments I can remember relating to theis, was testing done by Jim O'Meara and Sam Fadala back in the early to mid seventies. thier testing was actually to see the effect of the patch, in a gasket-anti-gasket discussion. they did find that velocities and accuracy were pretty close with or without, fouling being the only found consideration with a round ball sans patch.

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."Russ,I don't ever recall giving that info. I have dipped balls in mildly soapy water, to keep them from oxidizing, but not for lube, itself.the only real experiments I can remember relating to theis, was testing done by Jim O'Meara and Sam Fadala back in the early to mid seventies. thier testing was actually to see the effect of the patch, in a gasket-anti-gasket discussion. they did find that velocities and accuracy were pretty close with or without, fouling being the.......................

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 Ric, I must apologize. It was not you and shooter575, it was just shooter575.     It was in a post Title; Smoothbores, dated 01/13/2004. In effect it was said. (If I can do this transposing properly)

Ah the smoothy. Here is the one I shoot now.It is a orgional 1816 Springfield .069 made in 1828.Converted by H&P to caplock in 1860.When I got ot it was cutdown to shotgun length,just behind middle band.I had it re lined and streched back to orgional length.I spliced the stock at lower band. I shoot it .682 balls and 80 ff. No patch.Just lubed ball on powder.[as our rools] It will shoot 2" at 25 3" at 50 off bench.I can get off 10-12 rounds before it fouls too much

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I'm sorry about this. Your post in the same thread was refering to a "River Boat Canoe" and NOT about the "No Patch Round Ball". I guess my CRS is taking it's toll. "Old age is a bitch, then ya die".  Your other posts did not mention this either.....now that I've looked for this thing for two hours, I think I'm going to pour myself a tall one for sure this time.

 I do think, from Jim's description, that one can reasonable expect this to be a common practice with smoothbore shooters although I've never tried it. My own smoothbore, "Gun with no name", is still too new to me to have played with very much, with the exception of shot. I did shoot it today with #6 shot, and I think it's going to be a dandy for Grouse.  (If you recall, we shared a few e-mails on loading the 20 ga with Black, just for Grouse....Heaven forbid! I hope have the right name, and the right person  this time.) 

Respectfully, Russ

Guess I screwed that up pretty good. I cut off the bottom portion of the last post, and couldn't retrive it.  You, .45Nut, or Buckshot...one of youse for sure...... is going to throw something through this screen at me if I've messed up your server, or whatever it is.

Anyway Waksupi, I went on to apologize for the error in my ways, and promised NEVER to do it again, if you could forgive me. I also promised myself a "long tall one" and I think that is exactly what I should do.

Respectfully, Russ

No need to apologize to me! I'm not bleeding, nor even wounded!

I'm just used to getting blamed for things I never did! I have a buddy who will be telling these interesting stories, and when I find out they are supposed to be about me, I have no recollection of being anywhere around where the event happened!

Just trying to keep the record straight.

I hit the road for a couple weeks, starting tomorrow, so will try to check in on the board when possible. I'm heading for the land of the Sioux, severe thunderstorms, and tornadoes, if the weather channel can be believed!

Ya'll play nice now, ya hear?

Russ Old Friend,

Not to worry,about the only ones that can really do any damage are myself,Buckshot or aimoo itself. A part of a post cut off? Har,,,small beans,plenty of time to add to it .  

As usual,the only ones than can fix something are better off leaving it be. No end to the list of things that have been "fixed" until they were un-useable .  45nut

Thanks fellows.      I just feel like a jerk when I do something stupid....wish I had received proper training on these computer "thangs" somewhere along the line, but unfortunately that never came about. The little bit I do know, I can't seem to remember from day to day.  It's good to know I can't screw things up from my end, I do bet if you were in my seat when these things happen you may feel differently about it.  I guess being old and out of date ain't too bad, not if you consider what comes next.

Respectfully, Russ

Russ and all.That was me on the smoothie. We are not allowed any paper or cloth patching.And being a rapid fire,timed event is how the hard lubed rb came about.There are quite a few smoothbore shooters in the N-SSA. for a event that is just 3 years old.We had 45, 4 man teams at the May Nationals.With many more just shooting paper.

Most guys are using soft lead,Diped in melted lube a few times to build up layers and take up windage.Old lefty says "thrice diped" Some use harder lead,a few use ww. A buddy of mine uses pewder.I shoot a ball .008 under bore.with my 80 gr load I would foul out before event was over if I went any biger. I do not know how much smaller you could go before you miss everything. I know some that are going .025 and doing OK?

I will defer to the others on patched RB's.I havent shot one in years.Smooth or rifled. BTW. In shooting minne's I have had nothing but bad luck with anything but soft lead.But I shoot target loads of 45-55 gr ether ff or fff.Even a small hardness increase will cause keyholing.With a 70 gr +++ load you could go up in hardness a bit.

Russ,You get that rock lock to spark?

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Jim......I did get the rock lock to spark!   But, it's more like a "Gee, Whizz, ah heck, Bang", .......than a "Flash, Bang".   Gives a whole new meaning to the word "Flinch Lock".  The flash hole does not have a linner, and could be a bit screwed up for all I know. Thought about installing one from TOW, or Dixie.  Like I said, "I ain't in it much", and I don't think I want to be. I'll just save me nickles, and get myself something of a bit more quality. One thing for sure...the one I get is going to be a little heavier than this one. (7.2 lb.) I be thinking that 8 or 8.5 might be about right.  Using a 45-70 case for measuring, I get 68gr FFg, and (~) 1.1oz #6 shot. That turns out to be pretty stout in the "Gun with no Name".

Good to "see" ya back.

Russ

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RussB: Before you give up on that rock-lock, check your flash-hole location; it should be well above the bottom of the pan. Then try using just enough priming powder (FFFg?) to level to the BOTTOM of the flash-hole. Over-filling the pan and covering the hole usually leads to ignition delays - even though that doesn't seem logical. You might even try a coarser grain of priming, like FFg; once in a while this helps, too. These old pieces can really teach you a lot, and with the right ball / patch combination, a smoothbore can be surprisingly accurate out to 50 yds. or so. floodgate1

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Hi Doug.......How be ya?  Long time "no speak"!  I've got a couple of things to send you, but with all the bad weather we've been having, I've been tied up cleaning branches, limbs, and ton's of Pine Needles.  Also been up to my neck in house repairs since I had a water pipe break in the upstairs bathroom.

Anyway, Your advise, as always, is well taken. There is a picture of me and the gun on another thread, and from my description you can probably tell it just ain't going to get there from here. However, I was "right pleased" when she did go bang, using shot.  Is it, or was it, ever practical for Mfg's. to put a "choke" in the smoothbore?  I'm "guessing" the pattern it's throwing at 30 yds is very close to a "modified choke"......Is that possible? Or, am I only having a pipe dream? I do think I was expecting a very tight pattern, something you might see with a Full, or Turkey Choke. I'm not concerned, just curious. As a matter of fact, when it comes to me shooting, the bigger the pattern, the better my chances of hitting something. 

Respectfully, Russ

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........ The way he'd prime the pan was to lick his thumb and wipe it across the pan, add powder and then tip the rifle to dump any powder that didn't stick and then close the frizzen.He said any more powder then what stuck was too much.

Buckshot

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Now THAT is interesting!   I don't think you'd flood the pan with this method. Might even improve lock time. Gotta check this out.   (Wht didn't I think about that??)

Russ

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Oooh,I like that. Sounds like a old timer way of priming. Guess I will need to build me a rock lock.

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Shooter575....I was at the "Gravel Pit Range" yesterday afternoon with the Smoothie, and I did try this method of priming. I was amazed at what little powder it takes to fire the gun. I normally use FFFFg. with about 3 to 4 grs, using this method, a pound of powder could last many life times.   And, I "think" it may have increased lock time just a bit. More like a "Gee Whizz, pop, bang". I like the "pop" part, let's me know for sure "something" is going to happen. 

My main problem is how to handle the components needed, when I'm somewhere other than the Club Range with it's handy benches. Heck! you need 3 extra hands when everything is right at your finger tips, how in the world was this all done in years gone by? I'm sure I'll get the hang of this one of these days, but working out of a box on the ground aint no way to go. .

Respectfully, Russ

Russ,PM me your address again.[CRS] I send ya some load tubes we use in our skirmishes. Will hold about 110 gr black. and a lubed ball. In pic is a pinkish lube sabot looking thing.I just push the ball down in the tube and pour melted lube on top.Or you could 'Thrice dip" ball". I will send you some for 69's and 58's  The big ones will work for .62's,Smaller ones work for 54's too.

Some fellas I know use al. foil to patch with.Then dip in lube.May be the ticket for undersized balls.

"Some fellas I know use al. foil to patch with.Then dip in lube.May be the ticket for undersized balls."

Jim, say "shot" man! say SHOT....How do you manage all the crap? I use powder (of course), seat a "mini" over shot card from PBI, then seat a Nitro "felt" Wad, then pour a 45-70 case full of #6 shot on it, then seat another over shot card on top of that.        A lot of "dickering" around before before the gun ever gets to the shoulder.      How in the world do you manage all the gadgetry. It would take a well trained squad of knowledgeable rifleman, all working together,  to get off more that two shots a minute with all the "junk" needed.  I haven't got the .648 round ball yet, But when I do, I think I can handle it much more efficiently. I can do three, sometimes four, aimed shots with PRB, so I shouldn't have any problems with that.  BTW; those "thrice dipped balls" may have merit.      Right now,  it's just "material management" with the shot loads that I have to organize. I noticed Dixie, and TOW, have "Shot Snakes", and "English & Irish Shot & Ball Bags" are you familar with these toys? I don't have a clue as to how these might work, but anything would be an improvement over just a Possibles Bag.

Check your email.

Respectfully, Russ

Russ,think fixed ammo Here is how the army did it for buck and ball.Ball was the same.This is what most of Washintons men used through the end of the smoothbore era.They primed with a bit of the main charge,dumped the rest down bore.Ramed paper and ball[s] home. Then fire away.

Now for shot,How about a fixed paper cup.Roll on a dowell .You could glue your wad to the ends. Paper cup needs to be strong enough to handle but still burst on fireing. If your flinter will flash with ff in the pan you would only need to remove cartridge from belt pouch.Tear off end.Prime pan.Load rest of powder in barrel.Thump butt on ground to set charge.Ram home shot cup. I am sorta lazy.I figure that the ram rod should only make one pass down per shot. Now I have not really played with this,but I know it would work with some expermenting

What a great thread here.......I sure wish I would have seen this text when I was starting out with the front-stuffers. 

One of my most critical questions regarding patched round balls was only recently answered in a couple rifles, and that was "by default"--how tight should the assembly fit in the bore?  Having seen people driving the ball home with mallets or (alternately) using both hands on a range rod to seat the ball, my impression was that things had to be pretty snug.  On my last venture with the T/C Hawken and its roundball barrel, I left my short starter at home--so I used .530" balls in place of the .535" and .015" patching.  HIJO LA!  Cloverleaf City!  The same bit with the Zouave--reduced RB diameter with same patch thickness--VOILA!  Seating with the heel of my palm was sufficient. 

A rocklock is in my future, for sure--I want a Model 1803 replica .54 of the type used on the Lewis & Clark expedition.  Dunno what twist the repros come with--does anyone know what rifling pitch/profile the originals were made with? 

Once the load workup is completed on the Hawken R/B, it gets reverse-engineered to 1840 trim with "primitive" sights.  Those adjustable sights on the T/C look like a camper shell on a Conestoga wagon to me.

Well, just back home, off the dusty trail. Good to see this thread is still alive. I'm learning a few things myself, in particular about dipping the balls. Don't know if I'll ever try it, as my smooth bore shoots good with the patched method, but good to know about.

I'm with Buckshot and his old timer buddy.  Learn to shoot from the pouch.

Deputy Al - I stopped in at Upper Missouri Trading Co., in Crofton, Nebraska, in my travels. Doc has a real nice Harper's Ferry rifle hanging on his rack in there, along with some other tasty pieces. I don't have his number handy, but you may wish to call him and do a price check iuf you are interested. It is a nice piece.

I finally tested my roundballs Pure lead I got into about 1" at 50 yards. Wheelweights went into about 2.5".I even tried water dropped wheelweights. I've been seeing ads for the Hornady Hardball in .50, and I thought it might be interesting to try. I DID check to see how tight a fit it was going to be before I rammed one home. The group was about 3" at 50. I guess I have a Cape Buffalo load for my .54 now.

Crowkiller