I can't answer your question directly, but as the owner of a Ruger #1 x 45-70 that weighs about as much as your NEF does.......any load surpassing Trapdoor pressures will provide some exhilarating recoil. 

After having run the gamut of load intensities in the Ruger, I find myself shooting mostly Trapdoor-intensity loads in my rifle--Lee 405 plain bases at about 1300 FPS, and RCBS 300 grain FNGC at about 1500 FPS.  These are all-day loads, and there is nothing in North America that the "stock" 45-70 won't knock on its natural a-- so stoked.  In fact--the most accurate load ever fired in the critter was with the original fuel--55.0 x Goex 2F and the Lee cast of 30/1 Pb/tin.  Pushing the velocity past stock values with the blunt boolits used in this caliber won't flatten trajectory enough to justify the stress to the mechanism or its operator, in my view.  I do have some SAECO 405 semi-spitzers courtesy of a mold loaned by a member here, and I haven't tried stretching its legs past 1500 FPS--40 of those was enough fun for one day, thank you. 

Thanks guys,

I have been leaning toward the Marlin load data as the limit for my little rifle. I too see no need to re-adjust my back and scrape myself off the ground on each trigger pull. Nor do I want a scattered shrapnel bomb in my hands.

I really do appreciate all the insight and suggestions - I am a new convert to the 45/70. Previously I was a fan of the .444 Marlin (still am) - I toyed with some BP loads with it. They were ok - but I couldn't get the catastrophic downrange effect with the lower velocities. So I went back to the favored smokeless loads. (All of this with my favored Saeco 300grn FPGC)

Anywho, Now I need to learn the nuances of the ol' Govt. round - I primarily want to switch back to BP for fun, but have a flatter faster smokeless load for hunting. Or I might like the BP enough to stay with it! Either way the first decision for my is finding the right bullet to start with. Purely for cost - I might give the Lee 400grn HB a try first. Second might be a Saeco or RCBS GC 400 +/- grn bullet.

I might be back with more questions!

Thanks a million

ERIC

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Thanks guys,I have been leaning toward the Marlin load data as the limit for my little rifle. I too see no need to re-adjust my back and scrape myself off the ground on each trigger pull. Nor do I want a scattered shrapnel bomb in my hands.I really do appreciate all the insight and suggestions - I am a new convert to the 45/70. Previously I was a fan of the .444 Marlin (still am) - I toyed with some BP loads with it. They were ok - but I couldn't get the catastrophic downrange effect with the lower velocities. So I went back to the favored smokeless loads. (All of this with my favored Saeco 300grn FPGC)Anywho, Now I need to learn the nuances of the ol' Govt. round - I primarily want to switch back to BP for fun, but have a flatter faster smokeless load for hunting. Or I might like the BP enough to stay with it! Either way the first decision fo

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ejjuls,  Complete agreement with Deputy Al on light .45/70s here, taught to me by a 7.5# Marlin (new) 1895.  I couldn't rest until I had tried the famous Elmer Keith load of 52.0 gr. 3031/400 gr. jacketed Speer.  I was shooting groups from a prone rest, and after the eleventh shot, felt something hit my grip hand.  I opened and shut both eyes in turn, OK so far, then opened both eyes and counted fingers.  Again, all there.  Then I picked up the chunk of walnut that had come from behind the tang and landed on me.  Looking at the stock, and considering the recoil, I glass-bedded the replacement stock and revelled in several years of accurate shooting with trapdoor-level loads and the RCBS 405GC boolit.  I had enjoyed about as many of Elmer's grizzly loads as I could stand!  curmudgeon 

To Ejjuls

Black powder is still a top performer in all the old straight cases. I can usualy get extream velocity spreads in the single digits. When working with black remember use a drop tube to charge the case and  to play with powder compression to get clean burn and consistant velocity. And another very important point that does not pertain to smokless is that BP lube has a dual function. It must lubricate same as in smokless but it must also mix with the black powder fouling to keep it soft for repeated shots. I market a BP lube that is being used by some top competiters arround the country with great success. This lube was developed to withstand the extream conditions sometimes encountered in BP cartridge compition. SPG is the yard stick by which all BP lubes are measured but it at times comes up short in extream heat and low humidity conditions. I spoke with several shooters at the Quiggley shoot that had melt down problems with  SPG in the 106* temp. My Bull Shop #2 lube was developed to prevent this problem and it works well indeed. If you would care to try it I can provide a free sample.

BIC/BS

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the more info!

I am a newby (sort-of) with BP cartridge loading

I use GOEX FFg, homemade lube ( a receipe I inherited - basically beeswax, lard, and some other secret ingredients) a 36" copper drop tube and a very hard - cast gas checked bullet (.444 marlin micro groove bbl issue. ). This combination has proved very accurate in my Marlin rifle - it is more consistent than I am. Understanding that BP loading is supposed to be with a softer cast bullet, more of a finer refinement of the powder charge and consistency in the loading. This is my goal with this rifle - this is a fun rifle. One I can tinker with and work up a load that is absolutely the best the rifle can do (me too).

BP is my goal - BUT smokeless loads that I might like to smack an elk with is also a nice option. This brings into the mix a question of the max safe loading of the cartridge. Obviously my limits are probably different from another shooter in the recoil tolerance dept. l am finding that as I age I am appreciating lighter cartridges - so why am I messing with a 45-70 you ask? Cuz' I still love the thump of of a punkin' ball thrower now and again!

ANY..who...tell me about duplex loadings in the NEF please. I am very interested in learning about variations in BP loading to achieve more consistent Std. Dev., velocity etc. The duplex loadings listed in my Lyman manual appear to have higher velocity and according to the manual they are cleaner burning rounds.....

I guess this a conversation more appropriate in another forum....I would welcome any offers of advice and data....etc. via email or through the forums. I am smitten by the bug, the 45/70 has always been a cartridge I wanted to play with. Now I finally "litterally had one land in my lap" have one. So, it is time to play with this fine old round,  and even though it isn't an original Sharps - it will keep me happy!

Darn I am ramblin again - I will welcome any responses. I also will post the duplex question in the appropriate forum here for everyone's benefit if people care to respond. Thanks a million

ERic

I probably need to pay more attention....

This seems like the most appropriate forum....duh!

Thanks

Eric

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Hey Guys,Thanks for the more info!I am a newby (sort-of) with BP cartridge loadingI use GOEX FFg, homemade lube ( a receipe I inherited - basically beeswax, lard, and some other secret ingredients) a 36" copper drop tube and a very hard -cast gas checked bullet (.444 marlin micro groove bbl issue. ). This combination has proved very accurate in my Marlin rifle - it is more consistent than I am. Understanding that BP loading is supposed to be with a softer cast bullet, more of a finer refinement of the powder charge and consistency in the loading. This is my goal with this rifle - this is a fun rifle. One I can tinker with and work up a load that is absolutely the best the rifle can do (me too).BP is my goal -BUTsmokeless loads that I might like to smack an elk with is also a nice option. This brings into the mix a quest

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Bull Shop,

Yep, I too am careful about the lard and salt issue. Basically this lube I make is for my flinlock rifle and the paper patched minnie ball it shoots. It works very very good at keeping fouling soft and has enough "hardner" in it to work well at summer time temps. With a hot bbl on a 100 degree day it begins to lose it's effectiveness, but for other uses it is fine. I have thought long and hard about ordering some spg lube for the 45/70 loadings and then compare it against my homegrown lube. It likely is better - but I sure like to tinker with doing things myself when I can! I do appreciate the warnings though. SPG lube for the 45/70 - easy to do.

Thanks

Eric

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Bull Shop,Yep, I too am careful about the lard and salt issue. Basically this lube I make is for my flinlock rifle and the paper patched minnie ball it shoots. It works very very good at keeping fouling soft and has enough "hardner" in it to work well at summer time temps. With a hot bbl on a 100 degree day it begins to lose it's effectiveness, but for other uses it is fine. I have thought long and hard about ordering some spg lube for the 45/70 loadings and then compare it against my homegrown lube. It likely is better - but I sure like to tinker with doing things myself when I can! I do appreciate the warnings though. SPG lube for the 45/70 - easy to do.ThanksEric

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I am at work right now and thier web site is blocked from me but I believe garrett which makes the magnum 45/70 hard cast ammo has nefs listed on their "suitable firearms" list for each of thier rounds

And by the way I have launched some pretty high stepping loads with 500 fmj hornady's out of my handi rifle with no ill effects on the gun or pressure signs on primers just pressure signs on my shoulder.... 

Reply to :ejjuls

NEF built a Marlin 450 on the Handi Rifle frame.  It is just about the same as top loads for the 45-70.  One book shows the 450 a bit stouter then the next book shows the 45-70 top loads a little stouter.

But.....like several here; I don't particularly care for the punishment.

I load everything from .243 to .45-70 with cast, I have found liquid alox and LBT soft blue to take care of all of them, even in the 7.5x54 SR and 7.62x54R at 2400fps.

The .45-70, I use 210gr, 320gr, 400gr and 515gr gas checks.

The 515 is a 3r, I am doing 1180fps with it and you can tell when it goes off, even with a recoil pad, in the 7lb 14oz handi rifle.

The 210gr rhpgc is just for fun plinking and at 1400fps is very mild, the 320gr fngc at 1450 is all right, the 400fngc at 1400fps is a little more recoil, but not bad.

All of these are trapdoor loads with smokeless, 4227, 4198, Rel.7 and BLC2.

The handi rifle should be safe with much heavier loads, it is made in .270 and .30-06, both of which have SAMMI pressures of well over 50,000 .

I have some shoulder problems and do not enjoy heavy recoil, but a handi rifle in .45-70 does not have to hurt you to handle game.

Don