I'd wager that like most of the major group "happenings" that we are fortunate enough to attend,everyone there will remember a particular shining moment  that will always be associated with NCBS '04.. In my case, while shooting the Remington-Lee 45/70 ,and not "loosing" BruceB's 416 with a full house load, are a close call for 2nd,  NCBS '04 will live forever as the YEAR I SHOT A TIE with Deputy Al in the revolver pin shoot !!!! !!! !! onceabull   

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I'd wager that like most of the major group "happenings" that we are fortunate enough to attend,everyone therewill remembera particular shining momentthat will always be associated with NCBS '04.. In my case, while shooting the Remington-Lee 45/70 ,and not "loosing" BruceB's 416 with a full house load, are a close call for 2nd, NCBS '04 will live forever as the YEAR I SHOT A TIE with Deputy Al in the revolver pin shoot !!!! !!! !! onceabull

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Bill,  Please E-mail me at scrumbled@aol.com     I think I made a mistake in nobody's favor in the mould trade.  The other Bill

Winnemucca 2004 is over with and some of you noticed I wasn't there. Buckshot I e-mailed Bruce a few times about not attending but I think his E-mail doesn't work. I'm on my third serious medical problem within the past year and didn't feel up to attending Winnemucca or my normal visit to my son in New Jersey. I've been healthy all my life except for the last year and it's been a disaster. BruceB you can mail my H&I sizers to me as I won't be passing thru Winnemucca until next May. Which size did your gun do best with? These upper case letters aren't intentional but didn't notice till half way thru and didn't feel like retyping. Sounds like Winnemucca 2004 was a success. Even the weather cooperated. See you all next year. Take care, ben1025 AKA ben.

Ben--

Missed ya at NCBS, and sorry to hear about your health situation.  I hope it resolves itself ASAP, sir.

Onceabull--

You gotta be kidding!  :-)

Special message to Felix:

Felix, very sorry that we were unable to make the traditional phone call to you, a high point of the Sunday night Duke's room party.  It was Mother's Day, and apparently everybody in Winnemucca decided to phone Mom that evening.  Despite several attempts, we were unable to get a phone line out of town.  Regards, curmudgeon and a roomful of casters who were disappointed in not talking to you.

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Winnemucca 2004 is over with and some of you noticed I wasn't there. Buckshot I e-mailed Bruce a few times about not attending but I think his E-mail doesn't work. I'm on my third serious medical problem within the past year and didn't feel up to attending Winnemucca or my normal visit to my son in New Jersey. I've been healthy all my life except for the last year and it's been a disaster. BruceB you can mail my H&I sizers to me as I won't be passing thru Winnemucca until next May. Which size did your gun do best with? These upper case letters aren't intentional but didn't notice till half way thru and didn't feel like retyping. Sounds like Winnemucca 2004 was a success. Even the weather cooperated. See you all next year. Take care, ben1025 AKA ben.

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ben,  The NCBS wasn't quite the same without you this year.  Our thoughts and prayers for your health are with you.  Looking forward to seeing you at the Sixth Annual.  curmudgeon and Mrs. c

 

 

Friends;

The two fast-fire individual events at NCBS, namely the Military Match and the Levergun Match, could use a wee bit of adjustment in my estimation.  They were both great fun, especially for a first try, but I'd like to see some changes for next year.

The Levergun Match called for starting with empty rifles, mostly to minimize the advantage a high-capacity Cowboy Action rifle would have over regular "deer rifles".  This did work, but as a result a number of us, including me, fired their rifles as single-shots and didn't use the magazine at all.  I believe this detracts from the lever-action rifle's real claim to fame, which is smooth, accurate, FAST feeding, handling, and firing. 

 To correct this problem, I propose:

----All shooters in the Match will be asked how many rounds their rifles can hold in mag and chamber combined.  All shooters will then be RESTRICTED to loading only as many rounds as the LEAST-capacious rifle can hold....a Cowboy Action rifle with 20-round capacity would only be allowed the same five or six rounds as a 1/2-magazine M94, for instance, if that was the smallest-capacity rifle entered.  Rifles will be loaded for the start of the timing period, unlike this year. This will give us a reasonably level playing field, while still allowing for a nice fast burst of initial firepower. Use of the magazine (or not) after that point will be up to the individual.----

There should also be an increase in the time allowed to shoot the Levergun Match.  2004's 45 seconds was "stimulating", but it was too short.  (I saw Mac still stuffing rounds through the loading gate with only 15 seconds left in which to shoot!) My suggestion, ONLY a suggestion, is to go to 90 seconds and see how that works.  Maybe push the targets a bit further out, too?

Regarding the Military Match, I think the time period should be extended here as well. Maybe 90 seconds here, too.  I did like the requirement of starting with empty rifles, allowing strippers and chargers for loading. This was an interesting demonstration of the old-timey rifles and their handling methods.  How about making it an any-position match (with no artificial support, of course)?  This would present two possible problems, namely TOO MUCH accuracy from prone at short range, and the need for some form of shooting mats.  Moving the targets out further would help the first problem, and old carpet or remnants could fix the second one.

Apart from that, I believe the events were great.  The 50-yard pistol centers donated by Curmudgeon (AGAIN!) are just about right for the type of events we shot.  The clays-on-mesh Team Rifle targets (another Curmudgeon concept AND donation) were a stroke of genius.  If I can make one suggestion,  I'd just propose that the targets be drilled  off-center to hang a bit more consistently, but this is very minor...they work fine just as they were used this year.

Did anyone ever hit the BATF mouse-pad at 180 yards??? Never did find out.....

Looking back is almost as much fun as the meet itself. Any more pictures posted yet??

 Hey Bruce,

I concur on both points and recommendations.

As a active participant in both matches myself the clock was running waaay too fast,not combat~fast-folks shooting back at ya fast,,but still fast.

 Maybe another idea there ...larger targets spaced at different distances for the military match? Hiding targets that poke out upon hitting a visible target? See if we can "engage" charging pop cans so to speak?

And for a new flavor in the levergun match a cowboy theme could be brought forth by one of our SAS friends. Something easy to employ,safe and reality based. Cowboy~Indian,or Bank Robber~Teller<dep al could provide a few flavors I'm sure>.

As for the ATF mouse pad,sadly it was unperforated at the end of the shoot'en and was lying on the grounds behind the line about to be disregarded and forgotten when I opened my car door and retrieved it. Only the staples holding it to the backer ever touched it. We shall hold it in reserve til next year.

And More pics were taken than mine I am sure,,our friend Onceabull had a photograher assigned to his station on saturday and sunday and we need to see his negatives posted and I feel confident there were more.

Once again,looking back upon my second journey to NCBS was wonderful and great. I shall return to use a great quote.

45nut

Onceabull et al--

Well, that Win M-70 will be a good platform for the spitzers I dare say.  That mold you rented to me is an intriguing design for sure--very bluff-nosed 45 caliber bore rider of 540 grains or thereabouts.  Whatever it connects with will collapse, I imagine.  The only caveat involves the #1's bore diameter interface with the nose diameter of the boolit--and it might get a "nose job" in the sizer if required.  I just hope it flies "nose-forward" in the slower 1-20" twist the Ruger is equipped with.  As I indicated at NCBS, I was able to get the 405 spitzers to behave themselves in the Ruger by adding velocity and distance--they raised hell with the 200 yards targets.  Not quite what the FN 405's will do, but good enough for deer and bear at the ranges a 45-70 gets used at.  There is a definite Law of Diminishing Returns involved in the 45 rifles when you start adding velocity to increase accuracy with slow twist rates.  :-)

The changes BruceB has suggested sound useful to me, though the any position allowance may induce an added handicap to those of us who do not charger load.  The Austro-Hungarian M95's with their packet loading en bloc clips might be the very thing there.  With a Steyr and a Budapest variant residing here, and boxer primed brass on the horizon, might be worth a try.

My question is, how far from military issue are we going to allow these rifles to get, and still compete in this match?  Change sights, stock, trigger, barrel, what?  For instance, the Norwegian Krag Scrounger just sent me (whoopee) has issue action, trigger and barrel, I think, but Williams Foolproof receiver sight, bead on ramp front, and a flat bottomed, heavy Herter's stock.  For purposes of the military rifle match, does this deviate too far from the original form?  I want to compete in some match with this rifle, and just want to clear up any questions before next May.  By the way, anyone know if an American Krag stock can be easily fitted to this action? 

Just 11.5 months until NCBS '05.

Ernie

Onceabull, absolutely money well spent.   This is the first Krag I have owned for keeping, as opossed to trading stock, and I plan to enjoy it.  Tomorrow we are heading for your state where we will look at an American Krag carbine as a possible candidate for herself for the military matches.  We enjoyed the matches muchly this year, and want to compete more effectively  at NCBS the next.  Buckshot talked me into the long range match, which was a real kick.  Want to work on that too.  Then of course, there are the handgun matches to think about. 

That dedicated Krag match sounds the berries to me, even if we have to sneak it in unofficial like.  Anyone think a snubnose revolver match would fly?

Ernie

Just off the top of my head, and knowing that nothing I say can be considered "chapter and verse" on the subject, my thinking runs something like this:

A "military rifle", for the purposes of the Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot, is a manually-operated military-issued rifle using its original cartridge loaded with cast bullets. 

It should have a barrel not heavier than its original issue-weight barrel. 

The stock may be replaced or modified, but not with "target" or "varmint" configurations, i.e.: a normal sporter-style stock may be fitted. 

The trigger may be replaced, but has to be safe, pull weight unspecified(????). Maybe we need a minimum 4lb or 5lb pull???  Naaah.... safe will do, to hell with measuring trigger weights.

 Sights must be iron and either open or aperture types are acceptable.  Click-type adjusments are OK.

Military or sporting-type slings not over 1.25" in width  may be used (no target slings or unusual swivel positions).  

Stripper clips and chargers as originally issued for use with the rifle are acceptable and may be used.  I also think the rifle should absolutely retain the ability to be used with the correct loading device.

PLEASE, I did not set out to write a rule book!  It's just that I'm so used to reading the damned things that this is the easiest way to get this stuff on paper (screen). I did the above in about five minutes, so don't hold my feets in the fahr just yet, OK fellers??  This is strictly a list for discussion, so have at it!

A nicely-executed '98 or '03 sporter with iron sights is perfectly acceptable in my book.  A monster '98 target rifle  with a 1"'-diameter tube, flat-bottomed "varmint" forend, 8-ounce Jewell trigger and Redfield Olympic 1/16"-click sights would draw a jaundiced glance from me, at least. However, I really don't foresee any difficulty whatever.  Our group is so laid back that there simply COULD NOT be the infighting that unfortunately mars some of the "higher-purpose" (high-falutin'?) shooting organizations (although, what could be of higher purpose than the way we do things?  I think these rule-beater types have lost sight of something very valuable.  WE have retained it, to our great benefit.)

Your Krag sounds delightful, you lucky dawg.

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Ernie, you raise a good question concerning just how far a "military" rifle can be modified and still meet the intent of our Military Match.Just off the top of my head, and knowing that nothing I say can be considered "chapter and verse" on the subject, my thinking runs something like this:A "military rifle", for the purposes of the Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot, is a manually-operated military-issued rifle using its original cartridge loaded with cast bullets.It should have a barrel not heavier than its original issue-weight barrel.The stock may be replaced or modified, but not with "target" or "varmint" configurations, i.e.: a normal sporter-style stock may be fitted.The trigger may be replaced, but has to be safe, pull weight unspecified(????).Maybe we need a minimum 4lb or 5lb pull??? Naaah.... safe wil

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Now, how did I do THAT?

Anyway.....

Buckshot's take finds an echo here, too.  Maybe what we need are "Stock" and "Modified" events, and if the guy shooting "Stock" whips everybody including the Modified bunch, then he wins everything.   A feller shooting higher with his Modified rifle than all the Stock shooters wins only the Modified class, and there is a separate title for Stock Class.

Sorta like winning the Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry with a Service Rifle.  It sure isn't easy, but it has been done.

Dang, it's nice to have company here at night.....been lonely on night shift this week.

 

One of the concerns I had before posting the MR question, was that a can of worms is always opened whenever definitions, rools and such are discussed.  No intention to get contentious here, but by the same token, there seems no point in practicing all year with a disallowed rifle.  Everyone in this bunch is so agreeable and friendly that seems a pretty remote likelyhood.

If we take a constructionist approach, as constitutional scholars might call it, then there would be little reason to enter the match with any rifle but a 1903A3 or No 4 Mk 2, given the quality of sights, triggers, barrels, and development work done on those over the years.  An Earl Warren look-see at such rools would open the line to a passel of interesting, if less successful, military rifles.  Lots of countries made rifles that they fondly  thought of as suitable for military use, but possessing almost no utility for target work.  To those as weird as me, this latter bunch are the ones that are the most fun, the most interesting to try to make shoot.  Of course, sometimes a minor modification or two creeps into mix.

Maybe I just shutup about this rools mess, but it does make the early AM less empty talking to youse guys about it.  Just like BruceB and his night shifts.

When I get back from the Gem State, will have some things to say about Krags on the MR part of this board.

Ernie

Back from Idabull's lovely state, a trip without issue as far as US Krag is concerned.  Took my 12 year old grandson with me, and he inspected the bore for me.  He said, paraphrasing as well as I can, "You know how the edges of the rifleing are real sharp in my .243, and a little rounder looking in Grandma's?  Well these are real round, and not sharp at all.  Any way, why is there a hole at the back of the action, like where the bolt handle would be if it was left handed like me?"  Gadzooks, the magazine cutoff is missing!  Twelve year olds have their uses indeed.

That issue disposed of, I can say that Idabull's prescription for a snubnose match sounds really good, being to the point and not drawn out enough to tie up too much shooting time.  Is anyone else interested, do you suppose?

Ernie

Good to see ya once again, Brazos.  I thought about what Ken told us about Internet Explorer, and tried the low tech solution--placing the Beretta 96 on the computer desk as a subtle hint for AOL to do the right things.  So far, so good.  This must be one of those venues where a kind word and a sidearm are more effective than a kind word alone. 

That snub-nose match did kind of die out in 2002.  I brought along my daily "snub-nosed" friend from work--S&W M-4513TSW--but since wheelguns are the thing here, an adjustment needs making. 

I carried a 2" M-10 S&W during The Time Before Bottom-Feeding Stutterguns, and that critter was absolutely dead-bang accurate.  It was nearly as tight-shooting as the M-586 x 6" it backed up at the time.  In a flurry of stupidity during the auto-pistol transition I sold off the old wheeler, and that ranks as among the dumber gun moves made by yours truly.  Those K-frame snubguns can REALLY shoot, so beware of the folks with the M-19/66's with abbreviated barrels, AND the Colt Detective Specials--probably the two best snubnosed revolvers ever crafted in terms of accuracy and reliability. 

The same Burrito Shooter (Glen) that has access to the M-92 x 32-20 WCF brought a factory-new condition Colt D/S to the range a few weeks back.......I think he does these things to make me crazy.     

Al, from Accureloading Classified Forum:

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Pages: 1 30WCF new member Reged: 11/02/03 Posts: 13 Loc: Utah FS Winchester 1892 .32-20 Limited Series 1 of 500       #672119 - 05/27/04 05:30 AM Edit   Reply   Quote   For sale as new in box Winchester model 1892 in .32-20. Limited series of 500 put out by Davidsons, bought new in 2003. 20" barrel with curved buttplate, in box with all papers. Would sell for $750 shipped to FFL in CONUS. Would be happy to provide photos and references. Post Extras:       30WCF new member Reged: 11/02/03 Posts: 13 Loc: Utah Re: FS Winchester 1892 .32-20 Limited Series 1 of 500 [Re: 30WCF]       #674070 - 05/28/04 08:30 PM Edit   Reply   Quote   BTT: Will consider all offers Post Extras:       Pages: 1

Scrounger--

I'M ON IT!  Many thanks, senor!

Folks;

The Mountain hath labored and brought forth my work schedule for 2005, and thus I can announce the following:

HEAR YE, HEAR YE!

The SIXTH Annual Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot will take place on May 6, 7, and 8, 2005.  Anyone who shoots cast bullets in any way, shape or form is welcome to attend, and based on past editions of the Event, you WILL have a good time [or else....the Good Time Polizei will be called in!]  If need be, just bring yourself, and guns and ammo will be in GREAT plenty for your enjoyment. 

I don't know what the status of the range will be, as far as longer-range shooting goes, but we'll do just fine, regardless.  I'm lookin' forward to it already!

The condensed, no-BS, rockbottom "ROOLS" are these:

-Act safely

-Have fun

-NO WHINING!!!

Rools Kommittee (everyone who attends is a member) meets on Friday for dinner and conversation-lubricants.  Shooting is on both Saturday and Sunday, with a BBQ at my place on Saturday evening (for the last two years, anyway) and a closing dinner downtown on Sunday night at a fine Basque-style restaurant.

It's truly a grand time, and please attend if at all possible.