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Title:Merchant Marines and other civilians with veteran status during WWII
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Alot of civilian groups were granted veteran status during WWII. What happened there? How come Merchant Marines that shipped into Vietnam, Korea, and Persian Gulf don't get the same status as their WWII counterparts? How come it was only during WWII that all these groups got veteran status? No civilian groups performing with the military since has gained veteran status since.You can't say that just because they got blown out of the water more often by the U-Boats, and the guy shipping into the Persian Gulf, Vietnam, or Korea didn't suffer the same fate is a valid arguement, only because nobody knows what may happen once you ship out into harms way.My guess is that the Merchant Marine has been lobbying congress for so long about it that they just gave in because they got tired of hearing about it. This should have never happened. Merchant Marines are CIVILIANS and they work for private companies. They were not part of the U.S. Armed Forces. Perhaps if they had served at one time with the U.S. Armed Forces, you could make a case for them later.
Date Posted: 02/23/2012 08:40
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#1
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- From:
- USA
- Registered: 01/04/2004
- Time spent: 0 hours
- Posts: 370
- Score: 370
- Rank:
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- Status: Navy Veteran
http://usmm.org/usms.html
I have been reading the history of the USMM and cutting to the heart of it, USMM was supervised by the US Navy under direction from FDR and basically formed a true alliance of sea power. Just prior to and through WW II, the Merchant Mariners were given training on naval surface engagement, aerial defense and anti submarine training. They were taught gunnery and while not for offensive purposes, most certainly for their own defense and the completion of their mission. They operated under the auspices of the US Navy and the direction of the US Coast Guard.
What I read made it hard to differentiate between the training they received versus the active US Naval Forces training. They were in fact, every bit the sailor that the US Navy personnel were.
Now, I haven't read far enough into it but I also think after WW II had all their treaties and post war agreements signed, Merchantmen were not allowed to be armed and that applies to all nations.
Sorry to say you are only prolonging your misery thinking your civilian service will be recognized by any VSO, regardless of the righteousness. You know that Veterans with federal service can't gain entrance to any VSO they want so to expand that to civilians, ain't gonna happen.
I have been reading the history of the USMM and cutting to the heart of it, USMM was supervised by the US Navy under direction from FDR and basically formed a true alliance of sea power. Just prior to and through WW II, the Merchant Mariners were given training on naval surface engagement, aerial defense and anti submarine training. They were taught gunnery and while not for offensive purposes, most certainly for their own defense and the completion of their mission. They operated under the auspices of the US Navy and the direction of the US Coast Guard.
What I read made it hard to differentiate between the training they received versus the active US Naval Forces training. They were in fact, every bit the sailor that the US Navy personnel were.
Now, I haven't read far enough into it but I also think after WW II had all their treaties and post war agreements signed, Merchantmen were not allowed to be armed and that applies to all nations.
Sorry to say you are only prolonging your misery thinking your civilian service will be recognized by any VSO, regardless of the righteousness. You know that Veterans with federal service can't gain entrance to any VSO they want so to expand that to civilians, ain't gonna happen.
Paul V. Dudkowski
Charter Member, ACWV
US Navy, 1973 to 1978
"Dedicated to the Cause"
Charter Member, ACWV
US Navy, 1973 to 1978
"Dedicated to the Cause"
Date Posted:02/23/2012 12:21
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It is hard to imagine the peril the Merchant Marines faced during WWII. Even before the war, in transporting Lend Lease supplies to Europe, they faced grave dangers. I doubt if the Merchant Marine in subsequent conflicts faced anything comparable to what they did. I think they earned everything they got. They certainly are true warriors more so than those who serve as contractors in the present engagements.
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Date Posted:02/23/2012 13:17
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#3
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Reply to salrol (02/23/2012 13:17)
It is hard to imagine the peril the Merchant Marines faced during WWII. Even before the war, in transporting Lend Lease supplies to Europe, they faced grave dangers. I doubt if the Merchant Marine in subsequent conflicts faced anything comparable to what they did. I think they earned everything they got. They certainly are true warriors more so than those who serve as contractors in the present engagements.
Semper Fi
It is hard to imagine the peril the Merchant Marines faced during WWII. Even before the war, in transporting Lend Lease supplies to Europe, they faced grave dangers. I doubt if the Merchant Marine in subsequent conflicts faced anything comparable to what they did. I think they earned everything they got. They certainly are true warriors more so than those who serve as contractors in the present engagements.
Semper Fi
I disagree that they are more warriors than those who serve as contractors in the present engagements. I should know something about this. For one, I was a contractor, and I served on vessels with Merchant Marines. True the Merchant Marines of WWII faced grave dangers making runs to Murmansk Russia, however, the contractor in Iraq or Afghanistan face grave dangers too. It is not the present day sailor, contractor's fault that there are no U-Boats out there sinking ships like back in WWII. You fell into the trap Salrol. You fell into the Merchant Marine trap in that they were NOT MILITARY. They worked for private firms anytime they ship out. They lobbied for veteran status which they got years later, but they are civilians, not military, no boot camp for them, no combat training. Reservist in the armed forces or National Guard had more combat training than them. They don't get veteran status.
Date Posted:02/23/2012 18:35
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#4
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Reply to pdudkowski (02/23/2012 12:21)
http://usmm.org/usms.html
I have been reading the history of the USMM and cutting to the heart of it, USMM was supervised by the US Navy under direction from FDR and basically formed a true alliance of sea power. Just prior to and through WW II, the Merchant Mariners were given training on naval surface engagement, aerial defense and anti submarine training. They were taught gunnery and while not for offensive purposes, most certainly for their own defense and the completion of their mission. They operated under the auspices of the US Navy and the direction of the US Coast Guard.
What I read made it hard to differentiate between the training they received versus the active US Naval Forces training. They were in fact, every bit the sailor that the US Navy personnel were.
Now, I haven't read far enough into it but I also think after WW II had all their treaties and post war agreements signed, Merchantmen were not allowed to be armed and that applies to all nations.
Sorry to say you are only prolonging your misery thinking your civilian service will be recognized by any VSO, regardless of the righteousness. You know that Veterans with federal service can't gain entrance to any VSO they want so to expand that to civilians, ain't gonna happen.
http://usmm.org/usms.html
I have been reading the history of the USMM and cutting to the heart of it, USMM was supervised by the US Navy under direction from FDR and basically formed a true alliance of sea power. Just prior to and through WW II, the Merchant Mariners were given training on naval surface engagement, aerial defense and anti submarine training. They were taught gunnery and while not for offensive purposes, most certainly for their own defense and the completion of their mission. They operated under the auspices of the US Navy and the direction of the US Coast Guard.
What I read made it hard to differentiate between the training they received versus the active US Naval Forces training. They were in fact, every bit the sailor that the US Navy personnel were.
Now, I haven't read far enough into it but I also think after WW II had all their treaties and post war agreements signed, Merchantmen were not allowed to be armed and that applies to all nations.
Sorry to say you are only prolonging your misery thinking your civilian service will be recognized by any VSO, regardless of the righteousness. You know that Veterans with federal service can't gain entrance to any VSO they want so to expand that to civilians, ain't gonna happen.
Paul. Answer me this. Show me how your case in gaining war veteran status for cold war service is more valid than my case about civilian contractors with former military service performing in the combat zone gaining VFW status. You must prove and show that cold war veterans served during hostilities just as a period of war or conflict. So, what must I show?
I was in the combat zone, . But I state the case that I was former military service member, combat trained, and hired by a military contractor based on my skills attained while in the military for support of a U.S. hostile missions directly in the combat zone. My only flaw I see here is that I was a civilian when deployed to hostilities. Basically discriminated for being a civilian, and discriminated just like you as a cold war veteran (and others in this forum, including me.)
I think my case as a civilian in the combat zone into gaining any kind of status with the VFW or the government in any way is just as valid as your case in the cold war veteran status and recognition. You may not think so, but I may.
Veterans with federal service should be able to gain entrance to any VSO, if their federal service took them to a combat zone. Not just for being in federal service and for just being veterans. The same should apply to civilian contractors that did business with the U.S. government for the purpose of war.
Date Posted:02/23/2012 19:08
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29 palms, I didn't fall into any trap. I am fully aware the Merchant Marines were civilians, and well paid civilians too, compared to those serving in the military at the time. I also know what they faced. I was in High School during WWII and saw many accounts in the papers of the times and news reels at theaters depicting some of the combat they faced. I would venture there were far more Merchant Marine casualties in WWII than there have been contractors in 10 years involvement in the Mideast. In my opinion, there is no comparison between what they did and what present day contractors are doing I repeat, I think they deserve everything they received
Semper Fi..
Semper Fi..
Date Posted:02/23/2012 19:40
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#6
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If you base casualties as a criteria for gaining certain status, than it is imparative to note that the casualties during the cold war did not amount casualties that of WWII, KOREA, VIETNAM, IRAQ. Or so you are saying. I see your point but again, if you base this on casualties, lets be fair about it.
Date Posted:02/23/2012 20:54
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#7
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VFW criteria doesn't distinguish between casualties and wars or hostilities. They base it on various campaign medals regardless of casualties. In fact, don't know if you are aware, but they do NOT allow Merchant Marines in their organization. The American Legion and Amvets do but only for 1941-1946 WWII Merchant Seaman. I don't see how a Merchant Marine that delivers the goods into the Persian Gulf is any different than one during WWII only that there were far greater U-boats around sinking them off. Contractors are not bunched together so much in vessels to where one shelling kills them all. They are scattered around in country providing technical services to the military in combat zones. Different missions. WWII is a war period, so is Persian Gulf War, so was Vietnam and Korea. Casualties should not be used as a criteria in rendering veteran status or not.
I feel like your statement somewhat demeans today's contractors just because they survived better in today's world than they did during the WWII. But, that is your opinion, and the way you see things. Thanks for sharing.
I feel like your statement somewhat demeans today's contractors just because they survived better in today's world than they did during the WWII. But, that is your opinion, and the way you see things. Thanks for sharing.
Date Posted:02/24/2012 01:37
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#8
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- From:
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- Registered: 01/04/2004
- Time spent: 0 hours
- Posts: 370
- Score: 370
- Rank:
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- Status: Navy Veteran
To make it clear, I never supported "War Time Status" for Cold War Veterans. Only recognition of their service. To that end, a CW "Service" medal. Look at the AFEM and the AFSM. Two different animals altogether. One gets you VA bennies if needed, the other gets you a thanks for your service.
I have also stood firm in my belief that each VSO, chartered by Congress or not have their rules and the right to stand firm on those rules or change them as they desire.
Lastly, I would think if your passion for inclusion in something bigger than yourself were genuine, you would start to research the facts, find like minded individuals and do something truly unique for that brand of service. I never understood the desire or desperation for individuals to gain acceptance into any organization that doesn't want them. Kinda like girls wanting access to the Boy Scouts or people trying to gain membership in an exclusive club that doesn't fit there status. Of course they always end up suing, many times winning only to be ostracized once they get in.
Your passion is refreshing. Your end game unrealistic. In business we follow the rules of goal setting: 1. Goals must be measurable. 2. Goals must be realistic. 3. Goals must be achievable. If you can't meet the three criteria you will never meet your goals. In all sincerity, move on and put your passion and energy into something positive for you and your fellow mariners.
I have also stood firm in my belief that each VSO, chartered by Congress or not have their rules and the right to stand firm on those rules or change them as they desire.
Lastly, I would think if your passion for inclusion in something bigger than yourself were genuine, you would start to research the facts, find like minded individuals and do something truly unique for that brand of service. I never understood the desire or desperation for individuals to gain acceptance into any organization that doesn't want them. Kinda like girls wanting access to the Boy Scouts or people trying to gain membership in an exclusive club that doesn't fit there status. Of course they always end up suing, many times winning only to be ostracized once they get in.
Your passion is refreshing. Your end game unrealistic. In business we follow the rules of goal setting: 1. Goals must be measurable. 2. Goals must be realistic. 3. Goals must be achievable. If you can't meet the three criteria you will never meet your goals. In all sincerity, move on and put your passion and energy into something positive for you and your fellow mariners.
Paul V. Dudkowski
Charter Member, ACWV
US Navy, 1973 to 1978
"Dedicated to the Cause"
Charter Member, ACWV
US Navy, 1973 to 1978
"Dedicated to the Cause"
Date Posted:02/24/2012 06:30
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Right on, Paul. It must be Hell to be a "wannabee".
Date Posted:02/24/2012 09:08
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#10
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I agree with salrol and Paul!
-the breeze-
-the breeze-
Date Posted:02/24/2012 09:55
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<!-- [if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 29 palms. I didn’t run out of words; I simply realized the futility of continuing a discussion that would not accomplish anything. I could never change your mind and you definitely won’t change mine. We had a discussion several months ago when you floated an equally far out proposal that all former service members have access to military bases and facilities such as the PX. That too led to an impasse. Personally, I could care less if the VFW granted membership to military contractors. I don’t belong to the VFW and have no desire to belong. I do belong to the American Legion, which, where I live is far more active and has better facilities than the VFW. The reason I got into this discussion originally is because I hate to see someone denigrate the achievements of another group in an effort to advance their own agenda, which is what I think you did to the WWII Merchant Marines in your original posting. Fortunately, in my opinion, your proposals are so unrealistic the probability of them ever being implemented is practically zero.
(Message edited by salrol On 02/25/2012 14:18)
Semper Fi
USMC (Ret.)
ACWV # 2007-033(Message edited by salrol On 02/25/2012 14:18)
Date Posted:02/25/2012 12:50
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I am one of those Persian Gulf Merchant Marine "Vets". To start off with, when I graduated the academy I (We) also took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. Some of us went active Navy/Coast Guard, other went into the civilian shipping industry. As for myself, I went into MSC (Navy Ships Operated by Merchant Mariners). My first assignment was in the North Arabian Gulf, escorting ships through minefields, clearing mines, salvage of crashed military aircraft, and more. I worked exclusively for/with the U.S. Navy. Hell, they had to come bail our butts out when the Iranians started to harass us on many ocassions. As we bailed them out when they broke down. Every military vet I know treats my service with respect and that I greatly appreciate. My ass was on the same line as their's was. I have even been asked to join my local American Legion because the Vets feel I have been wronged not having my service even acknowledged by the government. I suffer from some of the same illness's as some military vets due to exposure to chemicals from the oil fires yet cannot get my condition recognized because my symptoms showed later (like agent orange). Just because we didn't have guns on our ships, doesnt lessen the fact that we are a more valuable target than ANY warship. Logistics win wars. You sink 1 merchant ship, you kill men in the field.
All I ask is that we get shown a little respect. The WWII vets finally received acknowledgement for their sacrafice. No other U.S. merchant vet has. England treates their Merchant Marine as blessed hero's. America still treats us as a stray dog that crapped on your lawn.
All I ask is that we get shown a little respect. The WWII vets finally received acknowledgement for their sacrafice. No other U.S. merchant vet has. England treates their Merchant Marine as blessed hero's. America still treats us as a stray dog that crapped on your lawn.
Date Posted:06/30/2012 07:28
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#13
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- From:
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- Registered: 05/19/2008
- Time spent: 37900 hours
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As far as contrators/civilians in the Middle East, people don't know how much they have sacrificed. There have suffered a couple thousand casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan according to some reports I have seen. And I have personally carried some of their caskets (yes, Flag draped) onto aircraft for flights back home. They have my respect.
LIFE MEMBER OF VFW, AMVETS, AFA
"PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH !!"
"PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH !!"
Date Posted:07/01/2012 06:15
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Some people feel like if they don't meet the criteria of having served in the combat zone, while in uniform, nobody else did.
Date Posted:07/03/2012 00:39
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My brother is a merchant seaman. When he was draft age, he worried about getting called up but went to training in Piney Point, MD and got his seaman's papers. He never did get drafted, but I got a letter from him asking me to meet him in Danang back in 1969. Turns out hi ship was hauling ammo and they came under rocket fire while in Danang Harbor. Then he signed up for a voyage to he middle east, carrying vehicles and equipment for the Iraq operation in 2003. Took security/ weapons training and stood watch. A few months later, he got an "Operation Iraqi Freedom" medal in the mail. So whatever the criteria for membership in vets organizations, these guys were there. Yes, it is what it is -- they got paid more but then we go the GI Bill and military retirement in many cases. And then there's MSTS troopships -- you older guys will know what I mean.
Date Posted:07/11/2012 10:54
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