The American Defense Service Medal (ADSM) was not just a Navy/Marines/Coast Guard Medal.  It applied to all the armed forces service members on active duty for its original period.  My Dad was in the Army beginning in January 1941 and he received the ADSM for his service prior to Dec. 7, 1941.

 The option for reissue of the ADSM was discussed with the White House in our meeting. There was also discussion about extending criteria to other existing medals so there would be the full gambit available for the period. Also discussed was to administratively change the definition of certain laws that exclude or put the CW vet in a posture of feeling lesser. Example( dropping the "war veteran") parameters for non-service connected pensions. We asked for a path to wholeness as war vets however it could be done by trimming exclusionary laws. maybe in stages. It was a tactic to demonstrate the anomalies and hypocrisy of benefit structures. If the laws were opened up, medals would not be the focus. If we had the Cold War added to the list of official military conflicts of the US, the biggest problem, then we could be made whole administratively, or with a Congressional Gold Medal for victory in the Cold War. We may not get the individual medal we all want, but we would be "War Veterans" with full honors. Like as in WW2, if you had not been awarded a campaign medal you still were a war vet.

Lots were discussed in order to see the end condition and options to get there. Which they chose to pursue who knows. But, from our last communication on our WH meeting, it was said to have gotten the message through and there is buzz about the Cold War now.

   

I believe a few years ago Senator Hillary Clinton was a strong supporter of the CWSM. I suggest writing to the Madam Secretary.  She still carries a little clout at the WH.

 Sacwarrior, I want to start by thanking you for your efforts thus far and for what surely exists ahead of us. I see your point regarding the exclusionary laws, etc., but personally I feel differently. You are right about the WWII Veterans; they may not all have received a campaign medal (although with the American Defense and the American Campaign medal that may not be accurate) but regardless they all received the Victory Medal. Whether it comes to license plates or Tee-shirts and hats there is a tangible symbol of the WWII Veteran in the form of a medal and that applies whether he or she served in combat or administrative and whether they served in the South Pacific or Oklahoma. The Cold War represents a War period of the USA which many now classify in two distinct parts (First Cold War and Second Cold War). Until there is a unified and recognized medal to symbolize it there will be no respect of the kind that you suggest. CW Veterans will always be seen as the "JV" team regardless of whether they were fired on or performed hazardous duty. A distinctive medal is ideal but even the NDSM or the ADSM would represent that DoD recognized symbol to rally around. To me that is the only "win". I think it would be a mistake to take our eyes off the target at this point. If the medal concerned some so deeply because of the possibility that it would open up benefits then I think going directly after those benefits will threaten them even more. And I think a medal sounds more innocuous than benefits when we are dealing with politicians fighting to drop every dollar they can get away with to bulk up their own pet projects. A medal cost is a couple dollars times the number who would request it for free and then you're done. Benefits go on and on. True a medal might lead to benefits but if we can't win on the subject with a possibility of benefits through the issuance of a medal then I think we would be crushed  going after the benefits themselves. For all that it's worth my vote is that you continue pursuing options with the White House for "a" medal to recognize the Cold War service period. The NDSM should have been a no-brainer many decades ago at least for selected periods. It was not "utilized" to borrow the DoD terminology, but it should have been. To me that is the least that we should consider. If they are open to ADSM that is fine too. If they will discuss a CWSM that is ideal. But if we couldn't get the latter through Congress then it may be too hot for the White House. I don't know about anyone else but I would settle for the NDSM or the ADSM. What are the next steps? Does the ACWV team have any firm plans for a follow-up meeting with the staffers at the White House? Is it bad protocol to contact them directly to remind them of the topic? Is there anything we can do to assist? Again, thank you for your dedication to this cause and the efforts you and the others have shown on our behalf.

A few points:

1.  The American Defense Service Medal would have to be modified.  The reverse of the medal quotes two periods of National Emergency prior to our official involvement in WWII.  I personally don't think it should be used again, it is part of WWII history.

2.  The NDSM could be issued for the Grenada/Lebanon period...I think the American Legion could lead that charge since they got congress to change their charter and allow that period, which by the American Legion's congressionally approved membership charter is for "wartime" veterans.  So I figure the congress has almost recognized that period as wartime already.  The AL has the size to fight that one.

3.  The Armed Forces Service Medal would be a better match if we would settle for a generic award.  Hell, it was given out for watching the U.S. Mexican Border, why that rates more than watching the Fulda Gap or maintaining a nuclear deterrent, I don't know.  But I'm glad the Korean Defense vets got their medal, because it sets a precedence.  But, I still feel we rate a CWSM, due to the size, length, and historical and military significance of the Cold War.

4.  I don't knock the Berlin, Korean Defense, and Boomer/SSBN veterans.  Slowly more and more Cold War veterans are being recognized by the VFW.  They would allow all Cold War veterans if congress, the DOD, and the president got their shit together.

5.  I think the resistance from the DOD is the administrative workload.  A simple kill would be to get the DOD to adopt a "MILITARY" ribbon to correspond to the Cold War Certificate issued to military members.  I fear that although I think a Cold War Service Medal is justified, a Cold War Certificate Ribbon is the best we could get.

Great "Heads up" to our man in Hawaii, goes by name KYEN18.  Thanks for informing the forum.  No surprises here.  Also, I like that "A SHIP AT SEA IS A SHIP AT WAR".  I can agree with our "HIDDEN POSTER", now self revealed as Mr. Pdudkowski....(heheheh....)  If anything, I at least was on a U.S. Naval vessel out in international waters on reserve manuvers, fully combat loaded with weapons and amphibous assault vehicles.  Don't know if this should rate me VFW qualified for I was only out there for a few days, playing cat and mouse with russian trollies.  (As mentioned before, my time in Maritime Prepositioned Ships as a civilian definately should but that is just MY opinion.) And then some.

Sorry my friends.  I still thank all above, especially Jerry for all their efforts in trying like a bat out of hell into gaining this medal.  Sorry if it wasn't successful, but there is another time.


(Message edited by 29Palms On 12/17/2011 03:14)

Weller.  I like that position number 2 you mention.  As an Lebanon Era on active duty veteran and Legion qualified, I fit that criteria, would be nice to gain a NDSM based on that era.  Thanks for pointing this out.  You are ever so right here.  Love that suggestion.  Maybe you can help start this as a bill or something.  Maybe I'll send a letter to AL on that.

There was talk in the past to try to get the NDSM for Iranian Hostage Crisis, Grenada, Lebanon, Panama time frames but did not go anywhere.

 

 Here's some further thoughts based on the good comments and feedback here...

1.   I, for one, refuse to acknowledge the Cold War "certificate" as any kind of recognition. It is absolutely not a military award and that is from the DoD. I requested mine be included in my SRB when I received it all those years ago and DoD refused because it was NOT a Military award. It was authorized to all Federal government employees and as such for all we know more than half of those issued went to civilians. But my own feelings apart, for that very reason I can pretty much guarantee that DoD would never authorize a companion ribbon.

2.   I can also confirm that the DoD was not open to supporting the addition of a new window to the NDSM for Lebanon/Grenada. I was one who tried to push that myself but never got past the runaround of the criteria being the dates. It was like an Abbott and Costello skit; ask them what constitutes the qualifying criteria and they will tell you the dates, but if you ask them how the dates are determines they will tell you the qualifying criteria. The short answer is that the windows are decided arbitrarily with apparent emphasis being on the scope of involvement such as troop numbers and all branch participation rather than duration or number of casualties or threat level. I am a member of the Legion myself but I don't think they have any interest in pushing such a movement. I would think it more likely to get results for a new window covering the Cold War period via the White House.

3.   Unfortunately as Jim pointed out the ADSM would have to be modified and that would be an additional cost regardless of how large. It would also create a dilemma of either a "new" award running parallel to the original or replace it meaning additional complexities. Would WWII Veterans such a my late father who were awarded the original ADSM and their next of kin be eligible to request a "new" (modified) version? While that sounded good at first Jim's comments make that an unlikely project moving forward.

4.   The Armed Forces Service Medal sounds good in theory but the medal criteria includes; "...through which no foreign armed opposition or imminent threat of hostile action was encountered". While to world conflict occurred it would be hard for us to present an argument that on the one hand we were engaged in hostile relations with the other world superpower but no imminent threat of hostile action or armed opposition was encountered.

5.   The AFEM is also probably a hard sell because it has been around for a long time and its award has acquired a certain pattern or expectation that does not really fit the Cold War situation.

     I'm not convinced that there is an existing medal that could easily be sold as an alternative to a new specific CWSM. The closest is the NDSM which should have been issued in any event. Certainly during some periods but I think the case was already there for a CW-wide coverage. If it becomes clear that a CWSM is not to be then the only reasonable and fitting alternative to me is the NDSM. At the very least that could provide an interim recognition. If that could be done under this White House administration then perhaps in the future a more favorable economic climate or DoD reception would consider a new attempt for a specific CWSM. If the window was already created for the NDSM it would seem that it would be even more justifiable. I imagine every one of us has slightly different expectations but as for me I will only consider a CWSM or NDSM window to be a "win". Anything connected to the Cold War certificate is tainted as far as I am concerned. And while benefits are wonderful I think that is a much harder battle to fight and if we can't win the medal skirmish I can't see us winning that one as our lead. There are other medals but they all have potential baggage or problems in my opinion. I would like to see the CWSM fight continue but we have been blocked so strongly that any attempt on our side using legislation is a crap shoot at best. If there is a White House opening and they would be more comfortable with a NDSM window instead then I would support that 100% to get something on the table.
     In a way that actually makes more sense to me now. Here are some interesting thoughts and observations regarding the NDSM option...

1.   If the NDSM was opened to the entire Cold War period then the existing Campaign medals for Korea and Vietnam together with the AFEMs for some of those involved in related expeditions such as Grenada to mark the hot eras seems very appropriate. If you served during the Cold War you qualify for the NDSM and if you were "in theater" during a combat period you add on the respective campaign medal.

2.   Since the medal exists already there is no cost associated with design and manufacture. Further, many eligible Veterans will have already been issued the NDSM and their award will simply be a "star" device.

3.   I also believe that since this is a current Military award available easily and cheaply from numerous commercial sources that a great many eligible Veterans would simply purchase their award rather than requesting a free one from the DoD thereby reducing projected costs even further. The administrative paperwork and expense would also be reduced in that no new posters, graphics, charts, etc., would need to be created to show a new medal and define its precedence. That is another cost savings.

4.   Other than the actual date window the only real criteria is a period of declared "national emergency". Using the Gulf War period as a precedent there should be no problem retroactively applying this to the Cold War period. While some periods were clearly "national emergency" eras there would seem to be no difference from the Gulf War window which had a clear hot period and yet was open long after that until 1995 as I recall. Clearly the defined window is not tied directly to a continuous state of emergency or I think it would have been impossible to justify keeping the Gulf War window open until 1995.

5.   a While not a Cold War specific medal it could easily be used as a symbol associated with CW Veterans. It would be a Military award recognizing a war period.

6.   Finally, Cold War period defined for the NDSM would not preclude the possibility of a future effort to obtain the specific CWSM that we have been fighting for all these years. These awards are not mutually exclusive. It might, however, provide a compromise to allow us to claim a small victory in terms of recognition and the White House to do something good for a boatload of Veterans without throwing it in the face of the opposition in the DoD and Congress. Sure there would be opponents to this as well but probably not as much. It would be hard to seriously argue that expanding the windows for the Cold War would cheapen the NDSM medal when Veterans who were awarded it already joke about it and we can look at periods like 1995 and scratch our heads as to why this was any more significant than 1979, 1982-1984, or 1989 for example, none of which have a window in the NDSM.

     I really would like to see the NDSM and a CWSM but based on the above I could definitely settle for the simple NDSM at least for now. The more that I think about it the better chance this might have.

Keller made a great notion on behalf of Lebanon/Grenada era vets and the NDSM.  Unfortunately, this won't happen because of these reasons.

I doubt that the ndsm has ever been issued for conflicts.  They seem to have been issued during declared wars.  The declared wars are listed on the va guidebook, but basically, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Persian Gulf (Which is still open since 1990)

Lebanon was a multinational peacekeeping force involvement that lasted two years.  /Grenada was a mililtary operation lasting only days as was Panama.  Neither of those were declared wars.

The American Legion states that its members are WAR ERA members, but they also add CONFLICT VETERANS to the statement.

The only possibility I can see with these conflict situations mentioned above, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama in issuing a NDSM would be to consider these conflicts actual WARS.  

Marines engaged in Nicaragua prior to WWII and in Haiti for many years, around 15 or so, have never been issued anything resembling a NDSM.  Not even retroactively.  If you give one era a ndsm, how about those Marines from those years?.  Then again, was this a National Emergency or was Marines used there to protect U.S. interest?  (Fruit companies, railroad enterprises, placing down a puppet government.)

Vietnam was considered a conflict at one point, but later was changed to a WAR.  What constitued the change?  Numbers involved?  Years of the conflict?  Cost?  

The same principles can be applied as to why no CWSM.  Same situation.  Not a declared war, not considered a war.

The only ones that seemed to have been rewarded in the VA for benefits, and VFW eligibility, and medals during these conflicts were actual IN COUNTRY veterans.  They have something called VETERAN STATUS good for things such as veterans preferance for one.  Unlike veterans of declared wars, all were rewarded wheather they were in country or not.  This same principle did not apply to conflict ERA veterans of Lebanon/Grenada and Panama.   

 Either the conflicts must be changed to WARS in order to gain a NDSM, or at least they should call the NDSM a war era medal instead of a NATIONAL EMERGENCY medal.  The current name as a National Emergency Medal doesn't seem to justify the real intent.

Lastly, this all will never happen in my life time basically because this means more eligible people for benefits and cost our government lots of money.  It's all about the money.  This is why the Cold War Medal isn't happening like it should.    

  



c :    

Another point of view here.  Most American Legion members are Vietnam era veterans.  They have their benefits and NDSM.  I don't see why they would push for a LEBANON/GRENADA era veteran to gain the same.  Sad but true.   It's the "Im in" syndrome.  I'm in the system, enrolled in VA healthcare, why would I want to jeapordize myself extra medical care to a NDSM qualified veteran that sat his ass in stateside, when I was in NAM dodging bullets?  And for Lebanon/Grenada era vets even less so.  Cold War veterans.....forget about it....

Lets close the doors on other veterans trying to get a nut like a squirrel.  Same with immigrants coming in from Mexico.  They get in the system, who cares if the ones behind them stays in Mexico when the door gets shut before them?  It's like the cold war veteran with 24 months of active duty.  Who cares for the reservist that didn't do the time?  I got my medal.  I got my benefits.  Tough shiskies if you didn't get yours.  I deserved it more than you.  To the victor goes the spoils.  ALL FOR ME and NONE FOR YOU.  You better find a good job with benefits, so that you can PAY for your benefits, 363 medical coverage dollars to cover you and your wife per month.   I'm in the va health system because I served in a war era and you didn't.  I'll get medical for life brought to you by UNCLE SAM'S generousity and taxpayers of this country.  Go get a job and education so that you can keep up the medical bills when you get old.  Or just get into welfare and claim medicaid as you draw those cuckoo checks.

It really is the survival of the fittest.   "Playoffs?  What playoffs?  Playoffs?" 


(Message edited by 29Palms On 12/17/2011 08:17)

Here is something I picked out online.  I wonder why they place Lebanon in 1983-1987?  American Legion has those years from 82-84 for eligibility.  I don't think these guys got it right.  If they are going to engage in resolutions, at least get the years correct.  Involvment in Beruit commenced in September of 1982.  The MulitNational Peacekeeping force. RESOLUTION 012 APPROVED AWARD NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL AUTOMATICALLY WHEN A CAMPAIGN/SERVICE MEDAL IS AUTHORIZED

BE IT RESOLVED, that the Korea Defense Veterans of America petition for a revision of the National Defense Service Medal (NDSM) regulations to remove time bound requirements and replace them with an automatic award when a campaign/service medal is awarded; and WHEREAS, the U.S. military is an all volunteer military whose sole purpose is the defense of the continental United States, non continental states, its territories, and its citizens and interests around the world; and WHEREAS, it is U.S. policy that threats or attacks on us citizens anywhere constitutes an attack on our nation; and WHEREAS, operations of rescue and intervention have been conducted by U.S. armed forces on behalf of its citizens at various locations and times since the creation of the NDSM without the award of the NDSM, i.e., Lebanon 1958, Taiwan Straights 1958-1959, Cambodia Evacuation 1975, Vietnam Evacuation 1975, Mayaguez Rescue 1975, Lebanon 1983-1987, Grenada 1983, Libya 1986, Persian Gulf (Earnest Will) 1987-1990, Panama (Just Cause) 1989-1990, Iraq 1997-1998, Kosovo Campaign 1999, OTHER OPERATIONS (Partial award); and WHEREAS, the NDSM was automatically awarded with campaign/service medals (Gulf War - Southwest Asia Service Medal, Vietnam War - Vietnam Service Medal, and Korean War - Korean Service Medal) when U.S. Armed Forces were committed to military missions without a declaration of war and without any direct threat to the continental U.S., non continental states, or U.S. Territories; and WHEREAS, the purpose for the award is confusing and application is inconsistent; now, therefore BE IT RESOLVED, by the Korea Defense Veterans of America, that we petition for a change to the regulation awarding the National Defense Service Medal from a time-frame based award to an automatic award when a campaign/service medal is awarded.

The above introduced by KDVA resolution entered a date of 1983-1987 but left out exact months for Beruit/Grenada.  I suspect they mean after the Beruit bombing of the barracks, which occured in October of 1983.  Marines entered into Beruit around September of 1982.  I guess it would make a difference in eligibility for me if DOD picked the bomb blast in October of 1983 on through 1987 as the "WINDOW" for this NDSM eligibility.  I was active duty on up to Jan 1983.

There have been a couple questions why the NDSM was issued till 1995.  Few people remember that Iraq positioned its army at the Iraq-Kuwait boarded re-threatening Kuwait in 1994 and 1995.  The U.S. re-garrisoned Kuwait under Operation Vigilant Warrior.  The United Nations also recognized the threat by issuing UN Resolution 949 imposing a "No Drive" or "No Armor Zone" in southern Iraq in addition to the "No Fly Zone".  I was in Kuwait at that time and it was very austere in conditions.

Also, as far as cost with the NDSM or most awards...my son just finished his BCT and AIT and was told to buy a NDSM ribbon for graduation.  He didn't even know what it was.  I also qualify for it for two periods, but was never issued a medal.  Most of the time it just appears on an awards rip and many people don't know what it is for.

Which in turn brings up this question.  Why fight for a NDSM when it rarely gets any kind of respect?  Pizza stain?  I showed up medal?  I doubt it makes for a good resume.  Probably just piss of a conflict veteran that never got one or cold war veteran that may be interviewing you.  I can see the Nam veterans in the American Legion rolling their eyes on this one. 

 A few more comments...
1.   As was already pointed out the NSDM is not reserved for "declared" wars as we have had precious few of those. It is or at least has been reserved for large operations. As such it is appropriate for ANY "national emergency" period that the President or DoD defines. The key here is that it is typically done by Executive Order and as such needs only the President to create a new window and not the cluster of the Congress dancing around the DoD.

2.   Lebanon was ostensibly a multi-national "peace-keeping" operation but so was Korea. The forces on the ground were under hostile intent from the start and the barracks bombing was NOT the first or only attack. The ripple down was much larger and there were Marine units on NATO exercises which were placed on alert for redeployment to Beirut which included the possibility of bringing in fixed-wing aircraft for support on the ground. Probably a good idea that this was re-thought but it goes to show concern and scope. Security ripples included increased alerts regarding terrorism (yes we had it then too) even in CONUS.I believe there were some European incidents against American troops during this time as well as a result of the intervention in Lebanon.

3.   Regarding the Gulf War window through 1995 I certainly won't say there was not a threat at that period. My point was that there was no significant ground action in 1995 and there had not been any for years. So how is that any different from the threats that were faced during the Cold War. That's my point. If the existing NDSM windows include periods of threat but no significant sustained action then we have a precedent for the Cold War to be added. This is actually a good precedent. When you consider the last Japanese soldiers of WWII didn't surrender until 1974 in the Philippines and yet we close of the WWII period in 1945 clearly we are not generally inclined to keep doors open.

4.   Grenada was indeed a very brief operation. Its significance is that it was in our backyard and the intervention was to stop the creation of facilities that would have allowed more Soviet missiles in ridiculously close proximity. In both real and symbolic terms that was a direct threat to CONUS security. It was over so quickly that few recognize the potential impact. Above all, President Reagan was very public and vocal in his defense of the invasion (and this was characterized as such) and that included statements regarding the threat to national security and the danger presented by the Cuban/Soviet presence. Couple this with the increased spike in tensions with the Soviets at that time and this event also had the potential spark something much larger. It is a hot spot of the Cold War. In my opinion it is excluded from the NDSM not because it was not a declared war but precisely because it was a short duration event with limited DIRECT involvement. That much is true, but that does not mean that the NDSM can't be applied to it. It simply means that those making the call UP TO NOW have chose to ignore it. Specifically those at the time of the operation. During that era there was an emphasis on limited awards. If a ribbon required 6 months overseas a typical deployment might be 5 1/2 months so you needed to make a second deployment to qualify.

5.   I don't buy the argument that the NDSM would be denied because it wasn't applied to the banana wars Veterans of the Corps. First, the NDSM was created in 1953 and applies only to the Korean conflict and beyond. Second, the windows are already arbitrary. We have been discussing Lebanon/Grenada for example which was excluded as was Panama, Libya, the 1958 Lebanon, etc. 

     So why fight for a NDSM? Well, let me summarize;
1.   It may well be much easier to get a new window then a new medal AT THIS TIME.
2.   It takes the cost chestnut away from DoD since the medal exists and exists already in huge quantity and many Veterans will simply add a star to their existing NDSM and others will likely purchase their own.
3.   Getting the NSDM now does not preclude a future CWSM. Think bird in the hand. If the NSDM is negotiable with the White House now let's take it rather than fighting for a CWSM that might not come at this time. In fact it might make a future endeavor even easier with this as precedent.
4.   It should have been awarded in any case, regardless of whether a CWSM was or is ever created.
5.   It may even be easier to include our Reserve and NG brethren since there is a precedent for this in the existing NDSM windows.

The NDSM is not respected by current Veterans because they have a suite of campaign medals available not to mention all of the additional ribbons and medals developed in recent decades. For those with earlier service (especially one-tour Veterans) having "a" medal to recognize their service would be the answer to their dreams. I think 29 Palms said he fell into that crack. I apologize if I mixed him up with someone else but I do remember reading here recently about someone serving an honorable tour during some interesting years of the Cold War and not having a single medal or ribbon to mark their service. That is crazy. When we apply the criteria of "threat" of combat or attack versus the "reality" of combat or attack which is exactly what we do today by giving the NDSM to boot camp graduates and cadets then it must be applied to the Cold War. For those who are thinking that there is a difference because today's Military members can be sent to war theaters I need to remind them that throughout the Cold War there were hot actions and even ongoing hot zones such as those defined by the Korea Service medal and the Occupation medals and the AFEM medal. Military personnel serving during the Cold War were at the same risk for being deployed to these zones and there was no place on the globe that couldn't be reached by the Soviet threat. Today we worry about terror cells in US cities but at least they don't have bombers with the potential of carrying nuclear weapons flying up and down our coast on a regular basis and ICBMs pointed at our major population and strategic centers.
     I will say it again that I would much prefer a specific CWSM. But given the success rate thus far and the austere budget and economy that we are sitting in right now it may be something that needs to wait. Our leaders who are in discussions with the Senators and Congressmen and the White House will know best but it seems to me that there was some warming to the idea of an existing medal on the part of the White House. My thoughts are simply that if we consider that avenue right now the best chance is probably the NDSM. That would give some encouragement to the membership to get us through these lean times until we do stand a chance of getting a CWSM passed in Congress. I believe this should have been issued anyway and I would have been the first to push for this after we won a victory with the CWSM. So if that is not going to get anywhere right now then why not target a more attainable goal and then refocus on the prize? Ultimately it's up to our leadership and I trust them. I have felt that we were wasting time with Congress. I don't mean that I thought it was impossible but clearly there is heavy opposition there via DoD. Without the right individuals behind this there it has always been a long shot. Not impossible but a long shot. I have felt that the White House was the best bet all along. I don't mean any particular President but rather the White House approach. We now seem to have some linkage there. And if I understand they seemed open to discussing a possibility like this (NDSM). So my thought is "why not"? It would be nice to have some kind of victory before too many give up and lose interest. I could live with the NDSM for now at least. It would at least recognize that there was a Cold War period. The "certificate" is a civilian award and does not count.

I think ColdWarMarine makes a lot of sense and lays out a good strategy.  I agree....CWSM preferable, but I've always thought all Cold War veterans should be awarded NDSM regardless, which doesn't preclude continued push for and possible future creation of the CWSM.

bELKNAP

The NDSM comes with eligibility for a veterans pension, and that is why it will be fought by DOD and Congress. It is all about money like it or not. That would definitely take an executive order to be done. The AFSM is the only existing medal that would have a chance.

I don't know if I can agree with the last comment here by Guest.  I don't believe the NDSM is automatic eligibility for a pension.  That has to do with service during a war time PLUS active duty requirements.  Another words, reservist with active duty for training only that was issued a NDSM when he got out of boot camp is not qualified for a veteran's pension. 

Cold War Marine has some good points about the NDSM, and it would be nice to have it.  But I would rather have this based on my service during Lebanon than the cold war.  These medals are all ready made as mentioned.  I don't think this cold medal drive is getting anywhere.  NDSM may be the only way to go.

Are you all sure you got it right because I was just in Library congress and found the cold war service medal mentioned in the 2012 national defense authorization act under MILITARY PERSONNEL, section 581, came upon it while actually searching for a different military personnel subject, don't want to cause a stir but take a look, I don't know.

A lot has been said here. Lets not get off track on too many tangents. But ideas are good. Let me say that our meeting with the WH was time limited and we ran over because we wouldn't shut up. We pushed it to get as many points in as possible with the goal to be asked to get another meeting and continue dialog. We are not selling out anyone. No compromises etc... But those we met with are of the new generation and we had make cases with examples that relate to their experiences so it can be understood. I think we did as good a job as possible. The ADSM was an example only based on the way the that medal criteria was based, Base, Fleet, Air and so on to get to the point of what the Cold War was, global, Air, sea, land and with different front lines that makes a case that even CONUS assignments even rate. Using the ADSM clasps and appurtenances for the global reach as the theatres that could be used as a modification to another award. Understanding that the ADSM would need modification to be reissued. Why that award is interesting is that most of those awarded this medal have passed and it would be unique in many ways without take away from other issued medal to others. It was an example. lets not gets stuck on that.

We must know that presenting options is a way to show intention and determination to work on a comprehensive solution to this but at the same time point out how bad the situation is so the need to fix it is clear. Benefits and all are not detachable by law based on what is given to war veterans or other. Its also not an excuse to not find a way to roll Cold War vets into equal treatment. We know it was the umbrella war all others partook in since ww2 that had regional conflicts with common enemies and underwriters.

Understanding seemed to come back across the table when we mentioned the GWOT. It is also looked at as a GEE-dunk award from what I am told today by servicemen. But I explained, be careful what you say and what you wish for not wanting it. To not have the GWOT issued means you have no War. If only the Iraq and Afghan campaign medals existed, the global war would NOT BE and they would be in same situation as us. Either would those with the NDSM be war veterans if they didn't have it.

Also, don't get stuck on conflict vs. war. All military actions considered by congress are called "conflict".  The National emergency deal is what the Cold War is, and was very serous to many close to certain parts of it. This must not be forgotten.    

We all know how serious the Cold War was, we will not give any ground on this, it was earned.            

So under this forum, I suspect the next angle is to go for an NDSM based under Cold War Service.  So 30 years or so after the Beruit barracks bombing, no NDSM, so suddenly, we think that the Cold War service has a chance for an NDSM?  Trying not to sound pessamistic but its hard not to and I cant stop thinking out loud.

But I agree that this angle is way better than the medal angle which has failed over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.      

Cold War Marine wrote...

I don't buy the argument that the NDSM would be denied because it wasn't applied to the banana wars Veterans of the Corps. First, the NDSM was created in 1953 and applies only to the Korean conflict and beyond. Second, the windows are already arbitrary. We have been discussing Lebanon/Grenada for example which was excluded as was Panama, Libya, the 1958 Lebanon, etc. 


I write this.....

Banana wars Marines tend to be excluded for membership in the American Legion.  I guess that wasn't approved war or conflict by congress despite length of time, casualties and bullets fired.  I understand that the NDSM came in later in the 1950's.  Still, no recognition for the era veterans.   VFW takes them if they served in country.  American Legion apparantly did not view Nicaragua/Haiti as a conflict or a war.  Where was the Legion on that one?  Fact is, like I wrote before.  "IM IN" syndrome.  I got my WWII medals and bennies, NICARAGUA WHO? 
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 I would definitely support the ADSM with appropriate clasp(s). My father had received that one. He was in the service before WWII started. He was also there when it started (Pearl Harbor). I would think any change to the medal design itself even if to add a new date period would be a strike against it, but if that is an option that receives interest from the WH as a compromise for us and they were willing to add in a new period of eligibility then by all means that would be preferable. The optimal path here in my mind is something that can actually get through within the year. In my opinion it does not even have to be the final goal (CWSM) but something would keep the hope alive in the membership who have been through this same disappointing cycle so many times with Senate/Congress that we don't remember HOW many times anymore. I am willing to keep up the fight but I know that many are getting tired. And more to the point many are passing from our ranks every year. It would be nice to see something passed soon and while the CWSM is the goal and is the ideal I am thinking that while we will probably win eventually it may take many more years and many more battles. I truly believe that the NDSM is the path of least resistance. With all due respect I do not believe that the NDSM is directly tied to any benefits whatsoever other than the recipients of certain benefits probably have the NDSM as a result of their qualifying service and not the other way around. And for the record the creation of a new window for the NDSM for the Cold War now is no different that the retroactive creation of a CW specific medal. Either way it was not done when it should have been but it can be done now. Nothing is tied to Lebanon/Grenada. That was brought up by someone else and I borrowed the theme of it for some relative comparisons but there were many such events during the Cold War era. I have no idea why the Legion and VFW use the qualifying criteria that they do. Once established however the change is difficult because they are chartered through Congress. The Legion had the dates changed for Lebanon/Grenada and Panama as I recall. I think much of the modern Central American operations were simply covered under one of the old or new periods. But as to WHY they pushed for some periods and not others I am not involved enough to know. They are different and some qualify for both and some qualify for one and some qualify for the other. It is what it is. You can join if you are eligible or choose not to.I am not so concerned about other VSOs as I am with seeing recognition given to the Cold War period. With regard to our brothers who served in the banana wars I can only speculate why they were excluded but it might well be that until recent years the Corps was the police force of the United States. It was a self contained Military force that could project Infantry, Armor, and Air assets anywhere in the world on short notice by air, land, or sea. Any time the President of the United States felt that American interests or lives were at risk he would send the Corps to stabilize or extract as necessary. Once in a while it was to secure the beachheads for the more permanent Army and Air Forces that would follow but often the operations were short and restricted to USMC and USN personnel. The Corps counts them as battle honors but from a Military perspective many of these adventures were considered along the lines of police actions.For most of the 20th century the Corps was almost constantly active with such actions. Typically those involved received an Expeditionary medal of some kind but not the supporting members or the rest of the US Military. This was understood and anyone joining the Corps even in "peace time" expected to see some action somewhere if they stayed long enough. That concept began to change at the end of the last century and today we see operations conducted by Army Rangers, Navy S.E.A.L. teams, Air Force special teams and so forth and even other agencies. The emphasis is on smaller even more specialized operators than the Marines who are now reserved for more larger operations. It's a different world. But my point was that the Legion and VFW may have looked at the smaller "interventions" of the Corps as more "small scale police actions" than wars. No one ever seems to look at it in terms of casualties and odds to identify a risk factor but rather more vague political agendas. I do know the Legion was originally started to be an organization for WWI Veterans. I think it was as the membership started dropping and WWII created a boatload of new combat Veterans that they decided that expansion was better than extinction. With the VFW they started as an exclusion of "domestic" Veterans which would be the Civil War Veterans who were still living. So yes, I guess both and probably many more organizations are exclusionary to some extent. I don't like it either but they are not going to change. If you want to impact them then the best way is to increase recognition for Veterans like those in the Cold War who are generally excluded today and see that they meet qualifying criteria. In the case of the Legion it is a defined War period. In the case of the VFW it is a medal. Any of the methods we have discussed involving a medal could open up membership in both organizations but that should be the least of our focus. Respect for the period which was overlooked at the time is the key. When we finally stood down from the Soviet chapter of the Cold War everyone was so happy no one thought to recognize the effort. By the time we realized we were overlooked no one cared anymore. We need to fix that first.

 What is this all about? Someone got some bum scoop somewhere.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=48228

Semper Fi.

Odd..  My guess is that he referenced the Public Print version. The signed NDAA is not available yet.

Yes, he probably didn't read the conference report. Maybe Scott will send him the PDF so he can see the text.

 The gentleman just served up a softball to us.

Take advantage of it and post comments at the story thread and spread the word that its not funny. You can see how close we came, he interview had convince the DOD even it was being awarded that's how close we got, I was them shamed into why is was yanked, who it was that did it and how yellow they are it was done in midnight hours without accountability! They need to be exposed!

Human Events could be shocked by the whole snafu and do a follow on story and continue to our advantage.

Go get them!  

 The States are slowly responding to what the federal government should be responding to, the proper recognition of a Cold War Medal. The Certificate doesn't really help since the VA Hospitals return with something like, "What's this?"Louisiana I understand has enacted law for a Cold War medal for the vets in their State. Maine is now considering that 9 May be a Cold War Veteran Recognition Day. In the meantime the United States Congress plays normal politics over a medal well deserved for those veterans, both at home and overseas whom were the front lines/ first response forces to repel a "We will bury you" concept of world domination by the Iron and Bamboo Curtain nations of that period

Roger A Cold War Vet.

 The States are slowly responding to what the federal government should be responding to, the proper recognition of a Cold War Medal. The Certificate doesn't really help since the VA Hospitals return with something like, "What's this?"Louisiana I understand has enacted law for a Cold War medal for the vets in their State. Maine is now considering that 9 May be a Cold War Veteran Recognition Day. In the meantime the United States Congress plays normal politics over a medal well deserved for those veterans, both at home and overseas whom were the front lines/ first response forces to repel a "We will bury you" concept of world domination by the Iron and Bamboo Curtain nations of that period

Roger A Cold War Vet.